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Can someone explain to me why the Rosh Yeshiva would say this? Isn’t it more plausible that those who want to put the chareidim in the army really just feel that we should be sharing the burden, being that they don’t recognize the power and importance of Limud Torah in protecting the country?
I am only interested in answers which will try to explain the Rosh Yeshiva’s possible thought process in the manner. PLEASE DONT POST if all you want is to criticize chareidim, Gedolim, etc.
For one thing the army is not in need of extra manpower. That itself is a proof this is simply an anti-Torah pretext.
You are correct and incorrect.
You are correct that they probably feel it is unfair, and that is part of their motive.
You are incorrect in that they definitely also want to use it to destroy chareidi culture.
The army does not need nor want more manpower, let alone do they care enrolling those who have special requests which, at least formally, are supposed to be accommodated. Modern wars require specialized and highly trained personnel, not troops. There is only one possible reason for insisting upon assimilating haredim. If things were as you suggest, they would get rid of draft altogether and use the taxpayer’s money to hire and train the best candidates among the many excellent perspective soldiers, jewish and non jewish, who would like to join the IDF, take care of equipment and logistics (instead, there are many loose ends), and make sure the military career is well-paid and desirable (for those who are interested in it).
How could anybody here explain the thought process of the Rosh Yeshiva?
Because Chaza”l describe the sinah which anti haaretz have towards talmidei chachomim as a very powerful one (I would bite him like a donkey).
We’ve seen throughout our history how this has played out, certainly in the medina.
If the equity which they claim to be seeking were sought after in other areas, we might be tempted to wonder which motivation were stronger. That not being the case, however, it’s quite obvious which is the motivation and which is the excuse.
My guess is that the R”Y Shlita either misunderstands what the Government is trying to do, or, more likely, is afraid that this is only a first step in the implementation of a long-dormant goal of eliminating the Yeshiva World.
I’d strongly venture to say that the Rosh Yeshiva has a much keener understanding of the situation than anyone here.
I think that anyone who believes himself capable of understanding R Dovid shlita is bonkers.
long-dormant goal of eliminating the Yeshiva World
Why do you think it’s long dormant? Have they become tzaddikim? Or they see an opportunity?
long-dormant goal of eliminating the Yeshiva World
lol I hOp dey don’t eliminate d Cofy r%m t%
Sh18 -The worse thing about this guy Lapid is that he cloaks himself with supposed “Rabbis” like Piron. The RY has insight and realizes they are just sticking out the Chazer Fissel.
All the worse haters try to stick it to Klal Yisroel with a Koontz, like Pharoh, Bilum. At least Lovon was honest -“Aramy Oived Ovi”. But others have learned the best way to get Klal Yisroel is to separate them from Hashem, like Bilum did.
At least Lapid’s father was honest and open about his hatred.
The son is much more dangerous and he might almost be successful just like Pharoh & Bilum. Hopefully he will disappear as quickly as his father.
I would love to see a level-headed article explaining the chareidi position.
I’ll offer a possible explanation. The Rosh Yeshiva sees these people as haters who happen to be legislating. I’d venture to say that most of the posters here (myself included) view them as legislators who happen to hate.
Part of being a Charaidi in Israel is expressing yourself in extremes. If pushed, the Rosh Yeshiva would tell you that in his heart, he is saying this as a Guzma.
Unfortunately, this is part of living in a community that has the motto Semper Timere Extranei, instead of Semper Sursum or (my favorite) Semper Fidelis. Without extreme statements, the Rosh Yeshiva would be marginalized.
If you don’t think the words of the Rosh Yeshiva (and many other gdolim) are level-headed, you surely aren’t going to be convinced by any “article” seeking to explain the charedi position to the charedi-haters. So please spare our time.
Daniela, they are, but not packaged in a way that I can explain it to non-frum yidden
Do you think the non-frum would understand and accept pidyon haben or taharas hamishpacha if you tried explaining it to them? And this is different?
Torah613,
I think that any honest explanation of the Chareidi position will come off as paranoid.
Shraga18, with all due respect to the Gadol whose inexplicable quote you quoted- if you spend any amount of time in EY, you will notice that most of what people say to you there, from the Rosh Yeshiva all the way down to the taxi driver yelling at you as you navigate the curb, is simply incomprehensible. The whole mentality and lifestyle of people living in EY is about as understandable as quantum physics. Published in Greek. And the relationships between different groups are full of animosity that you will be hardpressed to match. (Unless you wander into a grammar thread on the CR.)
Those of us whose misfortune it is to live in chutz la’aretz can never pass judgement or hope to understand. We can only offer up our most fervent prayers that H-m watch over and protect all the different types of Yidden who live in His land.
Facetious and benign, I disagree. I believe that there is always a way to explain ourselves that is both reasonable and appropriate.
Torah613Torah (kol hakavod on the new capital letter) the average hiloni will not listen to arguments on the vicious anti-haredi hatred if they come from a Rabbi, so perhaps you should quote someone else more to their taste? What about Gideon Levy the leftist hiloni who writes on Haaretz? He recently wrote an article on this very topic, you can look it up on Haaretz website. Viciousness is viciousness and even Gideon Levy has to admit it.
the average hiloni will not listen to arguments on the vicious anti-haredi hatred if they come from a Rabbi
Why not? Why do the different Yidden in EY hate each other with a Sinah Gedolah?
Maybe the chilonim would be more tolerant if there was less burning up garbage cans.
As someone who was not raised religious, I grew up thinking that chareidim were pigs because they took everyone’s tax shkalim but didn’t serve. If we look at the thread that I posted about me doing sherut leumi, even that had a ton of controversy, and I am a woman, who is in seminary.
Yet, I also did not know when I was a pisher that religious women did sherut leumi. That is a fact that falls under the category of the “untold” in the secular world. Hence, they all hate us because they feel that none of us serve, and they even ignore the fact that dati leumi men do serve in the army- they abstain from the same 39 melachos as we do.
However, the other part that is being ignored, is that I have had some teachers at “seminary A” whose husbands did some form of sherut leumi and today are chareidi rabbis. That is also not told to anyone- including most chareidim.
Obviously, everyone would only know this information if we grew up in a world like pleasantville and never had anything to worry about because we all knew everythoing that we are supposed to know.
I hope that this bit of information clears some stuff up.
GAW it has been explained by DaasYochid earlier in the thread why.
Interjection please go in the racism / diversity thread so you can explain whether having a few people belonging, or claiming to belong, to a minority, who vandalize garbage cans (we wish certain minorities would *only* do that!) should or should not elicit hatred for that entire group.
However, the other part that is being ignored, is that I have had some teachers at “seminary A” whose husbands did some form of sherut leumi and today are chareidi rabbis. That is also not told to anyone- including most chareidim.
Of course not! If the other charaidim would know, then these “rabbis” would no longer be accepted, their children would be kicked out of school, and their daughters unable to wed. Shunning is a superior tactic in an insular community.
Gavra at work – R’ dovid does not just say extreme positions to keep himself popular.
I would not advise people to start with any godol, period. it is DANGEROUS. Especailly since this a subject in which every godoil agrees.
If anyone here learns as many hours in two days as R’ dovid – or r’ steinman or r’ Ovadia do in one day, maybe you can start thinking about commenting.
Much of the rosh yeshiva’s words were not quoted.
He said that were we ourselves to appreciate the value of our learning and act as such then the chiloinim would also respect it. MOST of his words were a mussar shmooze to the bochurim to encourage their hasmada – as well as to underline the gravity of the situation in theie eyes.
Benignuman, that’s one of the most closed-minded comments I’ve seen.
DY -I don’t know if he’s right or not, but I agree with him that it’s a waste of time to talk to them. They have made up their minds already, no matter what you tell them.
The best defense is an offense. The Frum parties have to start with the angle that I’ve mentioned here a few times. They should pay the Charedim a salary for sitting and learning because the learning protects all of the people in the State of Israel.
Da’as Yochid, I find it outrageous that you do not seem to see any validity to any of the non-Chareidim’s ta’anos whatsoever.
Mdd,
I never said I don’t understand their taanos.
How could serving one’s country result in someone being considered an outcast in their community? I don’t get it.
Gavra at work – R’ dovid does not just say extreme positions to keep himself popular.
Of course not. He says them to keep himself relevant in certain sects whom otherwise would go even more off the deep end. Think of it as a form of Kiruv.
How could serving one’s country result in someone being considered an outcast in their community? I don’t get it.
The same would be true for someone who joins the army in Berkley or these other radical liberal areas in the USA.
GAW it has been explained by DaasYochid earlier in the thread why.
Yes, and I reject that most of Klal Yisroel in EY are Amei HaAretz, even among the non-charaidim. To be an Am HaAretz you first have to be a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos.
He does no such thing. The Rosh Yeshiva says the Emes. Purely.
He does no such thing. The Rosh Yeshiva says the Emes. Purely.
Joe, only if he says it Ex Cathedra.
Daas Yochid,
I don’t understand why you think my argument was close-minded.
GAW, I think that R’Dovid really thinks so. Eventhough I do not agree with many of his shittos, I think it is unfounded to accuse him of insincerity.
GAW, I think that R’Dovid really thinks so. Eventhough I do not agree with many of his shittos, I think it is unfounded to accuse him of insincerity.
I did not say he was insincere. He knows who his audience is and how to reach them. A more “mild” response would not get the required result.
Benignuman,
Because you can’t accept the possibility that it is legitimate perspective tothink the “share the burden issue” has underlying ulterior motives, without calling it paranoia.
Daas,
I said it will “come off” as paranoia (to the general Jewish public), not that it is paranoia. I do think that it is reasonable to be wary of possible underlying ulterior motives. I happen to also think that precautions can be taken against this possibility without drawing a line in the sand, but I don’t think it is “illegitimate” to hold otherwise.
I firmly believe that if the Chareidim would be in the workforce in equal numbers of non-Chareidim, there wouldn’t be such an outcry to force them into the army.
Yserbius123 -“I firmly believe that if the Chareidim would be in the workforce in equal numbers of non-Chareidim, there wouldn’t be such an outcry to force them into the army.”
Your post is “Olam Hafuch Raheesy”. Even the Charedim that don’t want to learn or aren’t learners, a lot have been prevented from joining the workforce due to the requirement of first joining the IDF.
Health: Which is where the issue stems from. The Chareidi lifestyle wouldn’t survive a day if it weren’t for the vast amounts of economic aid the Medina provides them. Since they by and large don’t make enough money to support themselves, they rely on that aid. Since the non-Chareidi sector by and large do support themselves plus pay taxes that end up in Yeshivas, there is a lot of animosity against them.
Benignuman,
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
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