September 3, 2017 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1353317KnPanelParticipant
I think the only way to successfully win the battle against the rapid rate of assimilation and intermarriage amongst our non-observant Jewish brethren is for Torah Umesorah and all other kiruv organizations in the Jewish world to unite together as one under the singular banner of creating separate Yeshivas for boys and separate Yeshivas for girls that go thru K-12 in every single last out of town community in the Jewish world.September 3, 2017 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1353325👑RebYidd23Participant
I think only in Pakistan.September 3, 2017 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1353331jakobParticipant
that will not be enough to stop it you also first need to remove “Facebook” the website/issue that has caused from thousands to almost millions of intermarriages & divorcesSeptember 3, 2017 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1353333iacisrmmaParticipant
KnPANEL: And how are we going to “force” those who do not want their children to attend a jewish day school to enroll?September 3, 2017 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1353341zahavasdadParticipant
Creating Yeshivas will not make people go to them
And Frankly not everyone is interested in Religion, Most of the non-religious are not knocking down the door to become frumSeptember 3, 2017 7:09 am at 7:09 am #1353338CTLAWYERParticipant
It would not matter how many K-12 same sex Yeshivos are opened in OOT communities. Non-observant Jews will not send their children. The exception is in cities with terrible public schools which are majority minority (in the US that means Black and Hispanic).
Non-observant Jews who fled to suburbs after integration in the 1960s chose communities with excellent public school systems that prepare their children for top colleges and universities and careers in the secular world.
They have no interest in private Jewish education that is same sex and vastly inferior in terms of secular education.
They have no interest in a self imposed Ghetto…that’s why they live OOT.
This does not apply to the observant population.
Written by someone who lives OOT in a small suburban community, who moved from the deteriorating city he grew up in by choice. Who raised his family in a one frum shul town and drove the kids to yeshiva in the nearby city and sent them away for high school, mesifta and seminary…then to college and Law School.
95% of the Jews in my town are ‘non-orthodox’ they have no interest in private Jewish schools.
BTW>>>the description ‘non-observant’ is pejorative and offensive. Non-frum or non-orthodox Jews may observe the norms/rules of Judaism as laid out by their branch of Judaism (Conservative, Reform). It may not be what this community considers Torah Judaism, but they are Jews (unless following Reform Patrilinear determination). When the shoah arrived, they didn’t check to see if you were frum before requiring you to wear a Yellow star, live in a ghetto or worse.September 3, 2017 7:29 am at 7:29 am #1353356TheGoqParticipant
I tawt i taw a trolling cat i did i did!September 3, 2017 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1353373Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
Wasn’t there an organization called Torah U’mesorah that already basically did that years ago? Aren’t there already Day Schools in most communities (although not necessarily separate gender ones – but I don’t get how that would stop intermarriage, whatever other benefits it may have).September 3, 2017 10:43 am at 10:43 am #1353473anon1m0usParticipant
Maybe start showing ahavas yisroel instead of sinas chinom towards all of our brothers and sisters; regardless of their affiliation and maybe they will see the beauty the Torah has to offer.
In reality, how many of you would allow your children to marry a Baal/baalas teshuva? It’s great for ‘yenim’ but does not ‘paast’ for me. Why would they even consider us when we are so judgemental?
Just saying that it is elul, and I must wonder if Hashem thinks of us as OTD kids. Imagine he treats us as we treat others.September 3, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1353476JosephParticipant
anon1m0us, would you be as happy if your daughter/sister married a Bucharian Jew as you would be if she married an American Jew?September 3, 2017 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1353558lesschumrasParticipant
Joseph, why not? Are you also a bigot when it comes tp Jewd as well?September 3, 2017 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1353643golferParticipant
CTL, I don’t usually think you’re wrong (and I’m not usually foolish enough to argue with a lawyer) but this time I think you’re wrong.
The description “non-observant” is not pejorative. When we call someone a non-observant Jew, we are (obviously) not saying he’s not a Jew; we’re defining what type of Jew he is.
There are many types of Jews. There’s only one unchangeable Torah, the laws of which are immutable.
An observant Jew might not observe all 613 Mitzvos of the Torah perfectly. Today in galus we can’t can come close to performing 613, and even b’zman Bais Mamikdashl any one person couldn’t perform every Mitzvah. However, an observant Jews makes an attempt to perform, as perfectly as he is able, all the Mitzvos that apply to him. A Jew who abandons his heritage by disregarding the Torah’s laws is not observant. Whether circumstances make him a better or worse person than his neighbor who makes Kiddush Friday night, puts on tefillin every morning and learns with his children every evening is not for us to judge and we have no way of knowing. But non-observant he certainly is.September 3, 2017 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1353648JosephParticipant
LC, who said anything about not. All I asked anon1m0us was a question.September 3, 2017 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1353809anon1m0usParticipant
Joseph- yes, I would even allow my child a person whose parents are off the derech. If it was good enough for Yitzchok avenu, it’s good enough for me.September 3, 2017 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1353813jdf007Participant
I grew up non-observant, in a neighborhood that was probably the same. I always claim half of my public school, or at least my classes were Jewish, and all of my teachers were. We learned a lot of black history, and no Jewish history, just like any other regular Public schools.
I think the reason for intermarriage is twofold. One is, neighborhoods are no longer ethic based. I can go for years without ever seeing another Jewish person personally. Second, in typical American spheres everything is about “diversity”, without going further on this fetish.
I assume that my growing up, and my fathers growing up, was a lot like Europe. You didn’t have to be “orthodox” or hassidic, or religious. Everyone around you was Jewish. It would be natural that you marry Jewish. In 8th grade, everyone I sat near was Jewish, with maybe…MAYBE one exception.
It would have taken a lot of work, if one lived in such a situation, not to marry Jewish just naturally. Conversely, if I am the only one, or maybe the only 5 Jews out of 100’s of people, of course it’s going to go the other way. For example, my friend, of a Jewish mother and baptist father, was just re-baptized within the last few days I found out. I think his knowledge of Judaism was probably what mine was a few years ago. Nil. Religion and Jewish jokes on the television do not appear to give an accurate description of Judaism at all. So no wonder he doesn’t tip the other way. Plus, I might be the only Jewish person he knows in the area. Therefore, no exposure. Frankly, if I were younger, there would probably be no hope for me here. And I like this southern city.
I think the downfall occurred during mass integration and the downfall of the old ethnic neighborhoods like they used to have in the northeast. If you want the non-observant to meet and fall in love, they have to meet each other or even be around. It’ll probably have to be a watered down version of what you’re talking about. Summer camps, after school or weekend activities similar to what the churches did in the 1800’s or like what the Jews in Mississippi did many years ago since the community was spread out. They had chaperones too, so I wouldn’t call them that immodest. I don’t think anyone is really going to spend that much money, especially on private schools, unless the local public school is completely bombed out.September 3, 2017 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1353850CTLAWYERParticipant
I have a sister in law whose nephew (no blood connection to me) was brought up in a Conservative Jewish household. He observes Shabbos, keeps kashrus according to the standards set by the United Synagogue of America, graduated JTS and is a Conservative pulpit rabbi.
He is not frum, but to call him non-observant is pejorative. He observed the law according to the rules of his movement. He is Jewish, not frum.
That’s why I disagree with the term.
If he observed no ritual/belief then he’d be non-observantSeptember 3, 2017 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1353863👑RebYidd23Participant
Ban marriage. Then there will be no intermarriage.September 3, 2017 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1353916Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
CTL – While I hear your point, I would phrase it slightly differently. I do think it’s important to acknowledge the fact that the people in question do keep some things and therefore, I understand why the term “non-observant” bothers you.
However, I do have an issue with phrasing it: . “He observed the law according to the rules of his movement.”
The movements are kefira. Rav Moshe Feinstein makes a big distinction between a “Conservative” Jew and a Jew who acknowledges the truth of Torah and Mitzvos but doesn’t keep them. While I realize, (and I think Rav Moshe pointed out) that the Conservative Jew may not know better, he is still an apikorus (albeit unwittingly). I am not coming to judge him in any way, and it is wonderful that he tries to keep all he does, but I don’t think that WE are allowed to make a statement that in any way lends credence to the movement.
I realize that was not your intention, but I think that it would be better (and more emesdik) to state that he is not non-observant since he does in fact observe some of the Mitzvos of the Torah (without mentioning his Conservative affiliation – that is not a maaleh for us – what is a maaleh is the fact that he keeps some Mitzvos despite being Conservative).September 3, 2017 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1353918CTRebbeParticipant
I have to agree with CTL about the pejorative term-non observant. Let us try to avoid the term and forget the semantics. Returning to the issue raised, I feel that we are too far gone to end intermarriage, it is almost like fighting gravity. That does not mean we should give up. It is easy for everyone to say “yeah let some kiruv organization take care of it or let Torah Umesorah figure it out. For those of you who know anything about OOT life TU has essentially given up on the OOT communities and is primarily focused on the more right of center yeshivos (sorry to burst your bubble but R. Shraga Feivel Mendelovitz has been gone for many years and the last 30 years or so has taken the organization in a different direction). Yes, (co-ed) day schools can play a very key role in bringing back many and kiruv organizations are struggling to fight the assimilation giant with pea shooters. In order to increase our effectiveness as many frum Jews as possible need to be involved by following the lead of project inspire, and giving money, time and expertise to organizations doing G-d’s work in kiruv and helping OOT day schools (there are other organizations that have picked up TU’s slack). No one should say “some one will take care of it”-do it yourself. If you don’t have the money or skills then minimally cry out to our Father in Heaven to save His children.September 3, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1353922DovidBTParticipant
Isn’t the definition of “observant” closely related to intermarriage?
If you perform observances based on the “norms/rules of Judaism as laid out by your branch of Judaism”, or based on your community norms, or based on family tradition, it’s easy to rationalize deviating from those norms/rules if a good reason emerges.
But if you perform observances because they’re in the Torah that G-d gave to Moses, deviating is not an option. And the Torah specifically prohibits intermarriage.September 4, 2017 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1354334bmyerParticipant
Or maybe they should open more coed schools so they can mingle and marry each other…also coed summer camps and coed minyan maybe coed get togethers and coed simchas maybe even mixed dancing..all in the name of stopping intermarriage…
(Coed being a loose term of mixed- boys and girls…)
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