The last thing I would think of is Mayim Acharonim

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  • #612024

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    My husband told me the following story:

    Rabbi Yehudah and Rabbi Yossi and Rabbi Meir were traveling and stayed by a man named Kidor. They deposited their money with Kidor their host since they were staying over Shabbos. But Rabbi Meir didn’t do that, because the name “Kidor” has a bad connotation, like it says in Parshas Haazinu, “*Ki Dor* Tahapuchos Heimah”, and Rabbi Meir liked to interpret people’s names.

    After Shabbos, Rabbi Yehua and Rabbi Yossi asked for their wallets. Kidor denied that any money had been given to him.

    Meanwhile, Rabbi Meir had hidden his money inside the grave of Kidor’s father. Over Shabbos, when Kidor told the Rabbis that father had appeared to him in a dream, telling him to take the purse that was upon his head, Rabbi Meir said that a dream you dream on Erev Shabbos means nothing, and he stood near the grave guarding his money the whole day.

    The next day, Rabbi Yehudah and Rabbi Yossi went to Kidor’s business, and noted what he had eaten for lunch – lentils that were stuck in his beard. They went to his house and asked his wife for their wallets, saying that as a sign that Kidor had instructed her to do so, he told them to tell her he ate lentils for lunch.

    When Kidor came home and found out they had taken their wallets, he killed his wife for giving them their wallets.

    When Chazal said that not washing that Mayim Acharonim killed a person – they were talking about Kidor’s wife, whom Kidor killed when he discovered what she had done. Kidor should have washed Mayim Acharonim, so that they would not have had a sign to give her.

    How come they learn to do Mayim Acharonim? I feel like there are so many other lessons to learn.

    For example:

    1. If you have a friend who interprets names, ask him about people’s names before leaving your wallet with them, even if it’s just a suspicion.

    2. All dreams are meaningful

    3. A good way to trick a trickster is to notice what they ate for lunch.

    4. But if you’re the wife, don’t get involved in your husband’s business matters. And don’t give people things they said your husband asked for.

    5. Kidor had a temper.

    6. If you steal people’s wallets, you should wash mayim acharonim.

    Why did Chazal davka pick this story to teach us to wash mayim acharonim?

    #1001730

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And this is why girls don’t learn gemara.

    You want to save this lady’s life, yes? So what’s the easiest way to save it?

    Which is easier? Not stealing wallets, or washing your hands after gorging on lentils?

    #1001731

    squeak
    Participant

    The lesson I learned is that people who have beards on their hands also have violent tempers.

    #1001732

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    I think squeak is asking my question, what does mayim achronim have to do with lentils on one’s beard? He could have washed his hands and still left the lentils on his beard

    #1001733

    42, even I can answer that one (and you’re a MOD!!!). It is (was) customary to wipe one’s mouth too while cleaning the hands.

    #1001734

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    So what became of Kidor’s wife once he returned home?

    #1001735

    Drey kup
    Member

    She was buried.

    #1001736

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, LF, as Rashi says.

    Also, the gemara says ?????, which I thought referred to the mustache.

    #1001737

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    How about the most obvious lesson from the story- don’t steal or kill? If he wouldn’t have stolen the wallets, he wouldn’t have killed his wife for returning them. Also, if he would have eaten neatly he wouldn’t have any lentils on his beard to begin with. And, why does chazal not say he shouldn’t have given the wallets to his wife but kept them to himself? I’m sure there’s a reason for all this. Would be curious to hear.

    #1001738

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    mishna in avos says “havai zahir bmitzva kala kbachamurah…”. its very possible that what we consider something small may have destructive ramifications

    #1001739

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And also, that a Rasha will come from the other world to help his son do another Aveira.

    #1001740

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually, what the gemara says is that lack of Mayim Rishonim fed someone Tarfus and mayim Achronim caused death. It was said as an observation of these two things rather than a summary of the story.

    #1001741

    Sam2
    Participant

    42: See Rashi there.

    #1001742

    Logician
    Participant

    Why are we assuming that this was the (only) lesson Chazal learned from this story ? They were demonstrating how something considered minor could have drastic consequences, and simply used this story as illustration.

    It does seem to be very unlikely and random outcome, and so am not sure how it really serves as a motivation to keep the halachah.

    its not really normal to treat everything in the world as a matter of life or death, just because it could theoretically serve a s a catalyst for such.

    #1001743

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Popa: I don’t learn gemara. My husband told me this story.

    Gamanit: Great points, all.

    Logician: You’re asking my question.

    #1001744

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t learn gemara. My husband told me this story.

    This story is in the Gemara.

    #1001745

    WIY
    Member

    Torah

    The gemara brings a story to prove the point under discussion. That doesn’t limit the story and what can be learnt out of it. However the way it works is that the story has a very specific purpose and that is to prove the statement that was said previously in the gemara. Its like if you have a discussion with your husband and say Ill prove my point with the following story, there was this guy in the coffeeroom….and one part of that story will prove your point even though there can be many other observations from the story.

    #1001747

    Logician
    Participant

    I didn’t – and don’t – see that in your post. You asked why this is the relevant lesson. Many have posted that its not, but being used as an example for this point. I asked how it can serve this purpose, and I don’t see anyone answering that yet.

    #1001748

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Well, in the Netilas Yadaim story, it makes sense. There’s a direct connection between washing Netilas Yadaim and being identifiable as a Jew.

    There is not such a direct connection between washing Mayim Acharonim and killing one’s wife.

    #1001749

    Logician
    Participant

    Yes, exactly my point. I’m simply differentiating between this question, and the assumption made earlier that this is “the lesson to be learned” from the story.

    I’ve looked (not exhaustively) through the meforshim and haven’t found…

    #1001750

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why do you assume that upon hearing this story, this was the main impression? The main lesson of this story is that it is all in the name. That’s why the story is mentioned in the first place. However, when discussing washing the hands, it was said that Mayim Rishonim fed non-Kosher meat and Mayim Achronim killed a person.

    #1001751

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I asked my husband if we could start washing mayim acharonim, or at least he should, at work.

    He said, how about we agree that you don’t give anything back to anyone based on a siman about what I ate at work?

    #1001752

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You should have told him not to steal people’s wallets.

    #1001753

    swetkib
    Member

    She’s afraid he would kill her if she told him that.

    #1001755

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Haleivi: First, what source do you have for that?

    Secondly, my question is still standing:

    Well, in the Netilas Yadaim story, it makes sense. There’s a direct connection between washing Netilas Yadaim and being identifiable as a Jew.

    There is not such a direct connection between washing Mayim Acharonim and killing one’s wife.

    #1001756

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The meforshim mention this story is also brought down in the yerushalmi brachos. there it is recorded that he also killed his son, who was trying to protect his mother and he himself was also killed in the struggle.

    while you are drawing conclusions, why didnt you also conclude that it is best to shave ones moustache like the amish do. no moustache, no lentils stuck in it. no stuck lentils, no dead wife.

    you could also conclude that your husband shouldnt drink wine, or anything stronger, since the gemara tells us they plied him with wine to try get him to reveal where he hid the wallets. perhaps he killed his wife in a drunken rage.

    #1001757

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Thanks, APY. Interesting.

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