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We haven’t had a thread about this topic for a while. Time to spice up the coffee room. My question is: what have YOU done lately to end the shidduch crisis?
Nothing.
Can we delete this thread now?
If people really want to do something to help end the shidduch crisis, based on my personal experience, there are two (or three) things people can and should do. These are the two things that I think are the reason why I am not married yet (I mean, what seems to have led to it – only Hashem knows the reasons):
1. Try to be a good listener.
2. Stop speaking L”H and Motzi Shem Ra.
If I had the time and if it weren’t too personal and complicated, I could show you how the lack of those two things let to my being single, even though all of those responsible have no clue as to the connection.
If the oilam were to work on those two things, I have a feeling it would help put an end to the kids-at-risk crisis and the divorce crisis as well (and most other crises).
Can one really say that he or she absolutely knows why he or she is single?
Does that mean one went against G-d’s Will with Hashem’s help (because Hashem will lead us where we want to go?)
Hope. I have hope.
LU there’s a prayer for you at the Kotel… b’karov you’ll see that what’s past is past and it was there to help you get to your zivug ?
Do you know anyone who made Aliya and then moved back the US for a shidduch?
LB: “Can one really say that he or she absolutely knows why he or she is single?”
Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my post. I was just pointing out things that the oilam could learn from my experiences. (maybe that’s why I’m single – so that the oilam could learn these things).
LU: Wisdom in a bottle you have!
Good point. Good teachers teach others to avoid mistakes by having them emphasize with their teacher’s life experiences.
One of my teachers-in-life always tells us not to go upside down near the mirrors. He stresses this in every group class. I avoid the mirrors because I’ve learned to trust him and his experience.
When I took his training, he told us how someone fell into the wall and two approx 10×6′ mirrors came shattering down. Taking the risk by the mirrors isn’t worth it. The indirect awareness of what could happen is enough.
So thank you. By sharing your experiences you are helping others.
Hopefully you are also conscious of all the right things that you did back then and do do now 🙂
Have you read Miriam Adahan’s *Awareness* book?
“Do you know anyone who made Aliya and then moved back the US for a shidduch?”
Yes, it has been known to have happened.
WTP: I’ve never heard of that and have heard/read plenty of stories where people go to Israel for shidduchim.
Thank you
My personal effort has been to not put myself in the shidduch market, making way for the older single girls. 😛
It works both ways- basically if someone has been dating in one place for awhile, and has seemed to have run out of options, they will try a new place where there are new connections and new people to meet. That is true whether they live in Israel or outside of Israel.
Maybe you have only heard/read of those that go to Israel because it is more dramatic and inspiring.
I’m sure I’ve heard of or known several. Off-hand, I can think of 3 girls I know who went to the US for shidduchim, met someone there, got married and moved back to EY.In at least one of those cases, the guy had never intended to live in EY, and in fact, initially the plan was just to live in EY temporarily. Their oldest son is now in Yeshiva Gedola and they have no intention of leaving EY.
writersoul: lol… That’s very thoughtful of you ?
People make it sound like going to Israel is the ultimate solution to shidduchim.
I’m in Israel at this moment so I’m enjoying believing in this solution.
Maybe since I live in the US, I don’t hear the other side where maybe Israelis are pressured to look elsewhere for shidduchim too. For them that may be the US.
LB- first of all, all the cases I was talking about were Americans living in Israel, not Israelis. It made sense for them to go to America for shidduchim because they were Americans.
Both make sense – for Americans living in EY to go to the US for shidduchim and for Americans living in the US to come to Israel for shidduchim. The logic is that you have already spent several years dating the guys in your country and you never dated any guys in the other country. Nothing is working out in your country; maybe your zivug is in the other country.
Additionally, sometimes a person can learn and grow from the experience of being in another country and being exposed to a different segment of Frum society. I know that going to the US was very helpful to me for that reason.
By “for a shidduch,” did you mean to date or to live with their husband?
One of my teachers-in-life always tells us not to go upside down near the mirrors. He stresses this in every group class. I avoid the mirrors because I’ve learned to trust him and his experience.
When I took his training, he told us how someone fell into the wall and two approx 10×6′ mirrors came shattering down.
Context, please.
Moving to another country to live with your husband is common. Moving for a job is also common. Moving because you might find a shidduch I don’t think is smart unless you have already met. I know people that moved and thought they would find a job, didn’t and had to move back home. In this day and age you can video conference from your home and get to know each other before you meet. I know it is not the same as meeting in person but it’s cheaper and less time consuming. Once you’ve talked and think there is something there then you should flyover and meet. I don’t know if anyone does it but I don’t see why it can’t work.
Abba_s- people can go to a different country for an extended vacation, a chag, in between jobs or when recently graduated etc. While they are there, they can go out, and if it works out, then they have to figure out the long-term logistics.
Usually people only go to another country to date if they have first made phone calls and came up with at least one or two people to go out with there. Then, they will go for vacation (remember, we are talking about going to countries where it probably makes sense to go for vacation anyhow), and once they are there, if they see that they have a lot of people to go out with there, they will extend their flight. That is what I did.
LU: Wow talk about a business trip. That’s some serious tachlis.
WinnieThePooh _ If you are going on a vacation and while there someone set you up with a date I understand but the way they made it seem was they just picked themselves up and hope they will find someone in the new place.
LU_ I am not sure what you mean by make phone calls, to whom the dates or the shadchun? Vacations are usually a week or two, doesn’t really give you much time and can’t be extended. This will work for someone who isn’t interested in a career and just hopping from job to job.
Abba_S
I just dropped youngest daughter at JFK. She’s off to Australia for 4 week vacation during college winter break. 4 shidduch dates have been arranged during the first 10 days. This leaves time for additional dates if she finds one a ‘possible.’
She told us she told us she was going to visit former camp friends and Mrs. CTL put the shidduch process in motion.
Exactly, CT that was just what I was referring to, although Australia might not be a typical destination. Hatzlacha and all our brochos to her.
Abba_S- I know many shidduchim that happened (I mean couple got engaged) when someone went to a different country on vacation or for some specific purpose like a simcha, and they met their spouse when they were there. Others purposely took an extended vacation to some new destination for dating purposes (true, not everyone can do this, but there are many singles who work in the school system and have off summers, or people who can telecommute for a time). Still others who were “stuck”and decided “meshana makom meshane mazal”, did pick themselves up and move, finding a new job and new place to live, and many of those did B”H get married to someone they met in the new place.
Abba – if you work in the school system (as many of the people I know do), you are off the whole summer.
Israeli society in general (and particularly for Frum girls) is less career-oriented than American society, I think. Frum society tends to consider marriage more important for Frum girls than career.
I’m not saying that giving up one’s job is not an issue, but society does tend to feel that getting married is more important.
L’maaseh, usually people will just go for the summer, and only stay longer if they have a job in the second country and/or they are going out with someone specific and it is going well.
Abba – by phonecalls, I meant to shadchanim. I’m old-fashioned – I don’t skype, and I don’t talk to guys before I go out with them unless it was already decided that we are going out and they are just calling to set up the date.
Honestly I do not know how this dating while on vacation and setting up multiple shidduchim would work for anybody really chareidi, who would not consider more than one person at any given time. Each person should be considered on his or her own merits, not in comparison to anybody else. I wouldn’t dream of letting my kids consider a shidduch until the previous one is over.
Nechomah – they don’t necessarily go out with them at the same time. In fact, they usually don’t. If you are in America for the summer, there is no reason to do so. You would have a list of a few boys to go out with while you are there, but you wouldn’t actually set up anything before you get there.
What you are talking about is more likely to happen if someone lives somewhere far away from the New York area (like Chicago for example) and comes to New York for the weekend to date. They might set up two dates before they come, one for Thursday night or Friday and one for Motzei Shabbos. I have heard of that, but I’m not sure how common it is – it is a bit nuts. I would imagine that anyone who does that is someone who is a bit older and has already been dating for a while.
Lu’l: How do you go out fairly with the person on Thursday or Friday, knowing the whole time that you have another date set up on motzai Shabbos? I would think that the person is not able to properly focus on the person they are speaking with. They may be incorrectly looking for the “spark” that this is the one. Not everybody can make such an impressive first impression that they will be selected as “the shidduch”, but rather may take some time to get to know the inner person and realize what a good person s/he is and that it would be a very good shidduch for the person in question. But unfortunately, because the person in question was, perhaps we could call it, speed dating, they were not able to give proper attention to the first person and just bypassed them.
Nechomah………….
When you live OOT and are traveling a great distance and at a great cost to another area it makes sense to line up multiple shidduch opportunities.
It’s not like you can easily return in a week or two to meet someone else.
In fact, Mrs. CTL did not ask the shadchan for multiple dates for our daughter. The shadchan suggested 4 possibilities to meet during our daughter’s stay down under.
As for dating one person on Thursday and another on Friday>>>>back in the early 1970s when I was dating, it was not unusual for a boy to have one date Sunday afternoon and another Sunday night.
Nechomah, you are right, but as CTL says, sometimes there is no choice.
I remember once when I decided to try a different country for dating purposes for several weeks. I spoke to many shadchanim and anyone I knew in the area, checked out lots of possibilities and had one date for sure set up before I got there, and other possibles. By the time the first did not work out, I had others being set up. I actually got into trouble once- I went out with one guy and was sure he was not for me and said no to the shadchan. Then I went and called the next shadchan to set up the next one. After that was arranged, the first shadchan called me back to reconsider my no; basically she made me go out again against my better judgment. So here I was for the first time dating two guys at once! I felt horrible about it, but I figured that I was only going out again to please the shadchan, and would concentrate on the second guy. Turns out the second guy did not work out at all, and the next date with the first guy was better, and we ended up going out several more times before we decided no. So marathon dating can be problematic, but I can say that all’s well that ends well, because I went back home and eventually did meet my husband there.
I have found that people don’t know where to go, my friend made this website for frum jews called thedatemap.net, it seems like a nice idea, but i don’t know if it will end the shidduch crisis
Nechomah – I’ve never done it myself, and I don’t even know if I know anyone who has done it. But I have heard of it. I know many people are against it for the reasons you stated, but I guess as CTL and WTP said, some people feel it’s necessary. I can hear both sides. I think it really depends on the person and the situation.
Funny true story: A friend of mine agreed to go out with a certain boy. He called her at work (this was in pre-cell phone days) to set up a date for Sunday. Later that night (or maybe it was the next day), the phone rings in her apartment, and she picks it up, and it’s the same guy calling to set up a date with her roommate for Monday. She is like, “Do you know who you are talking to? This is _____.” She said he cracked up. She told him that she and her roommate would discuss it and decide which one should go out with him. They discussed it and came to the conclusion that he made the most sense for their third roommate. L’maaseh, they decided that the second girl should go out with him first. Neither of them ended up marrying him.
Moral of the story: If you do decide to go out with 2 girls simultaneously, make sure they are not roommates, and pay attention to the phone number you are calling!
TDM456: Are your friend’s initials also TDM?
When I said that the girl has to respond quickly if the boy already agreed to the shidduch or risk losing the date, I was criticized. but if you are flying in it’s okay to stack them up. To me it looks like a meat market. After a 23 hour flight the girls is to meet 4 boys within the first 10 days. That’s basically one every two days. The average date takes at least 4 hours plus getting ready for the date doesn’t really leave her much time to relax and think about the date so unless he wows her on the first date it’s over. It also doesn’t give her much time to visit friends or relatives or tour. This is basically dating for the sake of dating not for the sake of marrying.
Abba_S: What about when a guy (or girl) is online dating?
The guy is chatting and making plans with girls during the same time period he is scheduling dates and meeting others.
Or he could be dating one girl while waiting to hear back from the online shadchan on whether or not another girl accepted his interest to meet.
These girls are also being compared with the others.
Maybe having comparisons helps put things in perspective for someone to see that no one is perfect.
Still having more than one person in mind during any given time may complicate matters and impact one’s ability to invest fully in seeing if his or her date and her or him aresponding matriage compatible.
“When I said that the girl has to respond quickly if the boy already agreed to the shidduch or risk losing the date, I was criticized”
I think you might be taking something out of context.
“but if you are flying in it’s okay to stack them up.”
I never said that. I spoke about having a list of possible guys to go out with. Not the same thing.
“After a 23 hour flight the girls is to meet 4 boys within the first 10 days”
I never said that. I spoke about going to America or Israel for approximately a month with a list of at least 2 possible boys to date while you are there. I never said anything about arranging the dates beforehand.
I have never actually arranged more than one date beforehand, if that much. Personally, I have never dated on a trip that was less than 3 weeks, and even that I only did once. On that trip, I went out with 2 guys, and I had plenty of time to see friends and former students. The trip was worth it for that (seeing friends and former students).
The other times, I went for the summer. I didn’t have any dates arranged beforehand, but I did research and knew that there were guys to go out with and that it made sense to go both for shidduchim and other reasons. Once I was there, I realized it made sense to stay longer (either for shidduchim and/or for other reasons) so I did.
what ive done lately in regards to the shidduch crisis?????
well im a girl that got engaged a month ago bh so i guess thats one less girl in a crisis
Happygirlygirl,
That’s a great idea. If all girls would do that, there would be no crisis.
HGG- that’s the best way to do it! Mazel Tov again!
lilmod ulelamaid-
After a 23 hour flight the girls is to meet 4 boys within the first 10 days”
I never said that. I spoke about going to America or Israel for approximately a month with a list of at least 2 possible boys to date while you are there. I never said anything about arranging the dates beforehand.
My post had nothing to do with you, it concerned someone whose daughter was flying from JFK to Australia which takes about 23 hours flying time. I also don’t think the daughter really wants to go on these dates it just what Daddy want Daddy gets. Just reread the thread as I don’t want to be accused of saying Loshan Horah.
Is the shidduch crisis exclusive to this generation?
What about the next? What can we do to nest prepare our children?
Abba_S
You are so wrong……………….
What mommy wants, mommy gets. Mommy made the contact with the shadchan.
We have never pressured our children to marry early. We prefer they finish college and professional school first. Our daughter who married this past April finished law school in December, took and passed the February Bar exam and married before Pesach.
After Pesach, Mrs. CTL had life threatening medical issues. She spent 23 days on life support in ICU and has had 10 surgeries since. Her entire attitude about seeing our youngest married soon has changed. Our youngest has agreed to enter the shidduch process because she wants to marry while Mrs. CTL is well enough to take part in planning and the simcha.
Daddy has stayed out of this decision…all he’ll do is write the checks and be supportive of daughter’s decision.
Personally, I’d rather she marry an American, she’s 6th generation and I rather not see her consider moving down under.
Sorry, Abba, I mistakenly thought you were talking to me.
Word of advice: As far as I know there is no halachic problem with being clear about who you are talking to, and it would make it easier to figure out who you are talking to if you are clear about it.
Abba, btw, I was joking about the donkey rides. It had to do with a conversation from a previous thread.
And btw, everyone has different approaches to dating, and different things work for different people. As a general rule, I don’t know if I would reccommend lining up 4 dates in 10 days, but it could work for some people. Additionally, it sounds like the circumstances here were unusual.
I could see it being more of a problem for a boy doing something like this, though.
CT Lawyer I would like to apologize for accusing you of pushing your daughter to date while on vacation in Australia. I would also like to wish your wife a complete recovery from her illness.
I think it’s a bad idea to date someone that far away for the following reasons;
1) Australia is 23 hour flight and should she get married it will be very hard for you wife in her condition to travel there to meet the in-laws and your daughter once she gets married.
2) Australia has different education requirements so she may have to go back to school to meet them.
3) Your medical insurance wouldn’t be accepted there so any medical expenses may be very expensive.
Stay in the USA when dating and you avoid these problems.
lilmod ulelamaid – “I could see it being more of a problem for a boy doing something like this, though.”
Why all he needs is an Excel spreadsheet for all his dates or if he is tech savvy an Access database, enter the data from each date and then let the computer choose the best date for him.
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