February 12, 2012 1:53 am at 1:53 am #602012hockster613Member
So many times, our velt is witness to kinderlach socializing with the wrong people at the wrong place on a motzei shabbos, especially in areas with a lot of yidden. what can the klal do, to help this dor stay away from neesyonos situations?
I think our Rebbeim and Mechanchim should be addressing this serious issue.
Perhaps curfew at local heimeshe pizza stores? This problem is equal if not less than the shidduch crises.
What do you think?February 12, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #851000WolfishMusingsParticipant
socializing with the wrong people
Don’t worry. I’ll do my best to make sure that your kids don’t socialize with mine (i.e. the wrong people).
The WolfFebruary 12, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #851001frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Funny that your suggestion involves limiting things that are inherently mutar (like going to a pizza shop). How about a healthy alternative? In what universe will closing a pizza shop early on its busiest night cause a/t but more problems? (someone else will open instead with more publicity and a whole lot of politics.)February 12, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #851002oomisParticipant
The solution is simple. Provide suitable, enjoyable, kosher environments in which they can socialize like normal people, so they don’t seek out the wrong type.February 12, 2012 2:56 am at 2:56 am #851003
Although you are a troll you do bring up a good point.
In Eretz Yisroel certain Hechsherim enforce a curfew on what time the stores must shut down by. They should have instituted this here years ago. The Taaruvis in Kosher restaurants is terrible and the owners are responsible to a certain extent for allowing it as well as the Hehsherim for not threatening to take away the Hechsher and enforcing strict rules about closing times and disallowing hangouts.
I dont have an answer.February 12, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #851004soliekMember
lock them upFebruary 12, 2012 3:43 am at 3:43 am #851005susheeMember
Take away their hechsher.February 12, 2012 4:23 am at 4:23 am #851006147Participant
Go to Rav Reisman’s Nach Shiur; This will solve a lot of wasted time to be killed, on Motzei Schabbos.
Rav Reisman is currently 1 of today’s Gedolei HaDor, so a very authentic people to listen to, in addition to being entertaining.February 12, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #851007
Rabbaim?? Teachers?? What about parents and Rabbanim?February 12, 2012 4:54 am at 4:54 am #851008
Yes a lot of problems would be solved if motzei shabbos was spent on Torah.February 12, 2012 5:12 am at 5:12 am #851009HaLeiViParticipant
Perhaps Yeshivos should make non-pressure Melavos Malka.February 12, 2012 5:29 am at 5:29 am #851010morahmomParticipant
oomis – what’s so simple about providing suitalbe, kosher, enjoyable opportunities for kids to socialize like normal people? That doesn’t sound simple at all!
The suggestions given by others are great, but not for teenagers! Halevai kids would be streaming into Rabbi Reisman’s Shiur… but I don’t think the pizza patrons are.February 12, 2012 5:36 am at 5:36 am #851011LogicianParticipant
uh-huh. sure. everyone’s in pizza stores and who-knows-where-else cuz they haven’t found a shiur they like…
offering a shiur to “our kinderlach” who want to hang out is really gonna work… maybe we should try to understand our kids, and legitimize their want/need to relax and spend some time having fun. Then they’d be open to suggestions like oomis’, like kosher alternatives.February 12, 2012 6:02 am at 6:02 am #851012Sam2Participant
Pull a Hechsher? Is the food no longer Kosher? The day we start pulling Hechsherim for non-food related issues is the day all of Kashrus becomes nothing but politics.February 12, 2012 6:06 am at 6:06 am #851013
WIY- Agreed. Plus a lot of problems in Klall Yisroel would be alleviated if we all spent more time learning Torah all days and nights of the week!February 12, 2012 6:30 am at 6:30 am #851014metrodriverMember
WolfishMusings;I like your answer best. Obviously, the OP has sleepless nights (Not only on Motzei Shabbos.) of what kids will do wrong, or mix with the wrong crowd. He/she sees him/her self in the role of “G-D’s policeman/woman”.February 12, 2012 8:41 am at 8:41 am #851015ToiParticipant
oomis- I really think youre living in a dream world. Do you know what will happen if you allow your kids kosher taaruvos? One day you will find out that theyve been doing everything else that you thought you were preventing behind your back, and they only started because of the ‘kosher’ exposure you allowed them. I’m not sure, but i’d say im closer to my teenage years then you are, and youre grossly under-informed.February 12, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #851016PanthersMember
at this point i think it might be to hard to stop those that are already doing it and enjoying it and if you do they will just look elsewhere. and to have kids go to shiurim i guess it depends how old they are if they are in school they have enough of it during the week and if not they may want to go but many times they are not looking for that.February 12, 2012 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #851017kfbParticipant
What does a hechsher have to do with boys and girls hanging out?? A hechsher is in place to ensure that the food in the restaurant is kosher. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ENVIRONMENT!!!February 12, 2012 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #851018
Renting out a bowling alley, gym, swimming pool, ice skating rink followed by a geshmaker Melave Malka with a kumzits…. different venues for males, females…… maybe even for adults! Better than atlantic city!February 12, 2012 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #851019ToiParticipant
kfb- yes, of course. the point being made is that if we give establishments an incentive, they will more enthusiastically promote a more acceptable environment. everyone wins. except the satan.February 12, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #851020apushatayidParticipant
Where are the parents?February 12, 2012 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #851021emunah613Member
The kids who want to hang out will always find a place to go-at least they are hanging out locally and eating kosher. There are many that are hanging out-far from kosher areas and are mingling with non Jews. Those are the ones that are in the greatest sakana.
It would be nice if there were separate youth groups that had oneg Shabbos and melave malka activities. They could be held in a hall and be teamed up to help tzedaka organizations, handicapped, and even have guest speakers that know teens and can do workshops on all kinds of interesting topics.February 12, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #851022adamsParticipant
If they want to socialize, they will find the way, no matter how many stores you close and whatever else you try to do.
The point is, they haven’t recieved or accepted the Chinuch that
it is better to wait for shidduch than to socialize/flirt that may be so called innocent or may not be.
Having shiurim or programs might work, only if they are socializing out of rebellion, then you need to make NCSY type programs, i.e. “Judaism is cool” approach.
My children went to frum Yeshivos not mixed classes but the boys and girls sharing the same huge buildings, separate wings, and went to completely separate high schools.
I spoke to them about socializing, they think that it is wrong, that the time will come when they are in the Parsha of Shidduchim.
So those who got the same basic Chinuch, are rebelling a bit.
The issue is to facilitate the socializing in a heimish way or not but that might seem hypocritcal but it may be worth exploring.February 12, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #851023oomisParticipant
oomis- I really think youre living in a dream world. Do you know what will happen if you allow your kids kosher taaruvos? One day you will find out that theyve been doing everything else that you thought you were preventing behind your back, and they only started because of the ‘kosher’ exposure you allowed them. I’m not sure, but i’d say im closer to my teenage years then you are, and youre grossly under-informed. “
I certainly do know, having raised 5 frum kids, who are well-liked and admired for their middos tovos and dedication to Torah as well as to the Klal.
You give no credit to our kids for being brought up properly, and you worry that the first second they are in a mixed group (read: boys and girls in the same room) they will do terrible things. It is thinking like this that often causes many of our kids to rebel, because there are SO many strictures put on them, that they can’t stand the confinement. After being in Yeshivah all week, do people honestly believe that kids only want to go to yet more shiurim on Motzai Shabbos? (that’s the same thinking that sets up shiurim for young men and women to attend as Shidduch events). They have to be allowed to be healthy, normal kids, too who have some fun and burn off their energy in halachically acceptable ways. Socializing is a VERY important part of their emotional development and allows them the ability to relate to people in a healthy way.
Please do not presume to think how my kids act or acted behind my back. I a)trust my kids, because they have never given me a single reason not to b) I know where they are and with whom and c)their behavior is consistent with what I have always expected of them. It is davka because I am not close to my teen years any longer, that I am able to assess things from a less hysterical perspective than many people seem to be taking. The tighter you clench onto kids, the easier it is for them to slip away. There ought to be some measure of treating them as more adult-like, or they will never become fully independent, which is something we are seeing very much nowadays. You don’t have to agree with me (and clearly you don’t), but it is my observation over many decades, including the one in which I was a teenager myself.February 13, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #851024writersoulMember
The problem with these programs is that they’re not attracting the kids who need them. Case in point: I went to the free bowling at Kiamesha Lanes in the country on Motzaei Shabbos. I went with a bunch of girls in my bungalow colony who all wanted something to do, and if it was free, why not? We went, and half of the people there were chassidish. The other half were people like us who decided to take the free bowling and pizza. I met other girls I knew there and trust me, they are NOT the type who would be hanging out in mixed places if they weren’t there.
Which isn’t to say, R’ Wallerstein, that you should stop doing it!! 🙂February 13, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #851025YeshivaRodefKesefParticipant
OP writes: “This problem is equal if not less than the shidduch crises.
What do you think?”
I think if you let them “hang out” it might solve the sidduch “crises”.February 13, 2012 3:36 am at 3:36 am #851026
I really wish there were an option to rate comments up or down…February 13, 2012 3:42 am at 3:42 am #851027zahavasdadParticipant
Some hechshers already remove themselves for issues not directly related to kashruth.
Most famously with the Glatt yachtFebruary 13, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #851028Sam2Participant
Toi: Because then these “incentives” will just become an “I’m frummer than you” contest and Hechsherim will be forced to pull themselves from places whenever someone can think of a new complaint, whether or not it has a good basis in Halachah.February 13, 2012 3:59 am at 3:59 am #851029MiddlePathParticipant
I agree half-way with oomis. Such an approach will work great for the more responsible, mature young adults, but may not work so well for the others. Also, such an approach would generally work great for the children who grew up in a mixed environment, because they are already used to such a concept and would therefore be able to tell what is right and what is wrong, but will probably not work well for children who grew up in a segregated environment.
I also agree half-way with pretty much the rest of you here, and I’m assuming you are all referring to teenagers who’ve grown up in a segregated environment, and in that case, I agree that it would be very difficult to expect them to maintain “kosher” socializing, because they generally won’t know where to draw the line (because they were never told that a line even exists), and therefore, their “natural” instincts would kick in. Which would cause problems.February 13, 2012 5:47 am at 5:47 am #851030GeshmakManParticipant
How about defining what a “heimeshe pizza shop” is first? Most of these “issues” are from “Frum” Jews creating artificial settings/worlds/labels that do not exist and then raising their children in these Fantasy lands.
Educate your kids normally instead of filling their minds up with silly words/rules and maybe they’ll behave like real people.February 13, 2012 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #851031apushatayidParticipant
But, where are the parents?February 13, 2012 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #851032mamashtakahMember
oomis1105 +1February 13, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #851033GeshmakManParticipant
The parents are blogging in the Coffee Room!February 13, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #851034gavra_at_workParticipant
I have a simple solution.
Don’t allow anyone to have children unless they are capable of taking care of them, which includes making sure they don’t “hang out” (if the parents include it in the definition).February 13, 2012 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #851035BTGuyParticipant
It’s the parents responsiblity.
Parents should look into where their children are actually
going and what is going on.
Many children are trusted by wonderful parents who are told by their children they are babysitting or working or going over so and so’s house; and they are not.
Parents have to up the ante in this day and age.February 13, 2012 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #851036susheeMember
Gavra, there is a chiyuv to have children that isn’t abrogated. And besides, no one can stop anyone else.February 13, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #851037gavra_at_workParticipant
Gavra, there is a chiyuv to have children that isn’t abrogated. And besides, no one can stop anyone else.
So don’t expect children of incompetent parents to behave themselves.February 13, 2012 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #851038hockster613Member
to Geshmakman-a heimeshe pizza shop- is a hang out at nighttime.
apushatayid and btguy, sometimes its difficult to hover on top of your kids. it only makes matters worse.
they need there own space to breath, or else they turn out….enough said.
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