June 26, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #597642
I have a tale to tell, halfways so I can laugh with you all, and halfway so I can cry on your shoulder.
My daughter, the Kalla and us were all discussing on shabbos during the Seudah how some of today’s young married girls dont hesitate or mind going back to work as early as 6 weeks postpartum, shlepping baby in tow to daycare day in and out in order to earn a living and keep on supporting their learning husbands in Kollel.
I was looking at the cons, Re: how tired she must feel, still recovering postpartum and working by day, and not having full sleep at night. Nursing, running a home, managing life etc.
I also mentioned how she would be better off to just take a full year, receive only a portion of her salary through the maternity leave but at least have that special first year with baby at home.
That that time cannot be brought back ever again, and its up to a mother to embue that child with trust, and bonding and whatever else she has to offer.
But she disagreed, she feels its better to put a baby in daycare at 6 weeks old because anyways “what should she do at home with him all day? Just sit there and look at each other?”
I reminded her that she turned out alright – MORE Than alright! and its all thanks to me (her wonderful mother)who chose to give up school and work to sit at home and give her all my attention, and love, and intellect, and read books to her, and take her on nature walks, and sing songs to her, and bake with her, and educate her for those first few preschool years.
I became so hurt when my “know -it-all” young bride said said “Yeah, and look at the disaterous results..until I was in 6th grade I didn’t lift a finger to help for shabbos, I was spoiled and …blah blah blah”
I felt OH MY GOODNESS!!! Is this what I get? This is my thanks?
That cute little blonde 3 yr old use to BEG me to “come and play dollhouse with her, and I would! I use to sit on the floor with her for hours and now she is telling me I did it all wrong?” I felt like i was in a twilight zone movie, and that daunting music was strangely playing somewhere in the background.
It was then that I realized I have now officially left behind my youth and have entered the realm of midlife. With a daughter who is telling me how it ought to be done!
All those hours of making paper dolls, with her. And now she says I should have just stuck her in a daycare!
All I can say is that I know understand what my mother and bubby went through if /when I have ever criticized them on any points in childrearing. And I am utterly humbled. (sniff sniff)June 26, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #781361m in IsraelMember
You sound like a wonderful mother, and I bet when your daughter IY”H has a baby of her own she’ll be singing a different tune!
However I am shocked by the overall gist of your post. I don’t know anyone (although I’m sure they do exist, infrequently) who “don’t hesitate or mind going back to work as early as 6 weeks postpartum”!! I cried hysterically the entire way to work when I returned at 6 weeks, not because I wanted to but because we needed the Parnassah. Many of my friends and co-workers did the same. I don’t know what type of job you had, but in the U.S. many employers do not pay any salary during maternity leave (none of mine ever did), so the only money I received after a baby was via disability insurance which only pays for 6 weeks (8 with a c-section). And a U.S. employer is not even obligated to hold your job for more than 12 weeks (under FMLA), so taking off a year may mean you have no job at the end of that year! Additionally my health insurance was through my employer, and I would have lost that as well if I took off more than 12 weeks.
The only thing keeping me going was the fact that I believed having a husband in learning was worth it. This was a decision I felt strongly about — but it certainly wasn’t easy. I’ve discussed many times with friends in similar situations that the true “mesiras nefesh” we have for learning has nothing to do with histapkus b’muat and less money — we were all fine with that. It was the heart-wrenching pain of leaving our young babies to come to work that was true “mesiras nefesh” — really giving up our very “nefesh” for the sake of what we believed. Maybe I just travel in different circles than you, but I find your implication that mothers who go back to work at 6 weeks don’t want to spend time with their babies to be very off target. (There were points when I had 3 or 4 co-workers with newborns pumping together, and that underlying current of being torn in half was ALWAYS there.)June 26, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #781362☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
What a chutzpah!
I guess she’s right.
(Just kidding – she’s probably just nervous about what you’ll think when she goes back to work after six months.)June 26, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #781363ZeesKiteParticipant
I really feel so sorry for you. It must really hurt. I have a lot to write to you about it, I just don’t have the time right now. Just one thought though. We should have in mind that it’s the exact picture regarding our relationship with HaShem. He too nurtures us, indeed – created us from nothing. He sustains us constantly – even while doing a misdeed. How could we show ingratitude towards HIM??
I hope to be able to write to you later. (in the meantime please Zees up)June 26, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #781364
m in Israel, I apologize. I really do. You eloquently painted the harsh reality I have (thank g-d) never had to realize.
I cannot imagine that it would be easy after all.
I guess that I made that conclusion without thinking too much into what it must really be like. I was thinking naive that if you don’t want to go to work- then dont! But you do have bills to pay after all!
And I admire the dedication and cheylik in Torah learning that you have doing so. I just am not from this type of thinking.June 26, 2011 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #781365popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Is it possible that she might have understood what you were saying as a criticism of her chosen way of life?June 26, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #781366
oh popa are you ever intuitive and perceptive….let me tell you..
LATELY EVERYTHING I SAY TO HER IS A CRITICISM OF HER CHOSEN WAY OF LIFE.June 26, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #781367popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Well, then either that is your intent, or it isn’t.
If it is, you should stop.
If it isn’t, you should think about why she thinks it is, and then stop doing whatever is making her think that. Because whatever you are trying to do is clearly not getting through, and forget the blame, you should just work on stopping it.June 26, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #781368am yisrael chaiParticipant
I’m curious if you see a correlation between your daughter telling you what you should have done when she was younger & you feeling your mother made a poor choice when you were younger
This forum is anonymous & your mother is unknown here, but it is quite feasible for an alcoholic’s wife to post here:
My daughter thinks I made a mistake giving up a life with an alcoholic who abuses me & the family physically, emotionally, & I am petrified of his alcoholic rages which he conveniently forgets the next day. My body was perpetually bruised & I was repeatedly violated, as were some others.
I was petrified taking the final step of dissolving the marriage, no money, no roof over my head, without enough emotional or financial support.
I felt that this was the only recourse I had as the father for YEARS refused treatment. I had become the unhealthy enabler & codependent.
I & my family would have been destroyed if we had stayed a a unit, yet my daughter criticizes my choice & believes it’s because I didn’t have the strength of character. Nor the patience.
Could you believe it?June 26, 2011 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #781369oomisParticipant
Always Runs – good mom. I totally agreed with your entire post.June 26, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #781371ilovetheholylandParticipant
i CONSTANTLY tell my mother how much i appreciate the way she raised me. i look at some of my friends and the way some of their mothers act with them and im floored! MOTHERS ARE NOT BEST FRIENDS!!!! unfortunately in todays day and age many people behave as if they are…
on the other hand, i recently had a discussion with my mother and i told her that when i i”h raise my own kids, there are some things that i would like to do differently then she did with me. she asked me what i meant, and i gave her a few examples. its not to say that i dont like what she did, just that in my home i”h i would want things a little different. she was totally fine with it.
your daughter may be appreciative of the things you did for her but just wanna do things differently in her own home.June 27, 2011 12:13 am at 12:13 am #781372
am yisrael chai :
That post of the wife who was abused by her alcoholic husband is NOT my mother! My father may have liked drinking but he was a funny drunk and not a violent one!
I don’t think that is appropriate to compare my daughter’s perception of all I did for her, to how my mother not being more than she could be.
But i see your point, that at the end of the day, no matter what choices we make even if they were hard for us, and self sacrificing- we don’t necessarily get a thank you from our kids, but a slap in the face.June 27, 2011 12:15 am at 12:15 am #781373klachMember
abuse is a pretty big problem today even in the frum community.June 27, 2011 12:16 am at 12:16 am #781374
Not as big as some would make it out to be. It is relatively rare.June 27, 2011 12:20 am at 12:20 am #781375i love coffeParticipant
arwsf- Im sure your daughter will look back at this and regret what she said. Once she becomes the parent of her own child will she realize all that you did for her, and if it wasnt for you, who knows what she could have turned up to be (for the worse).June 27, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #781376aries2756Participant
As with everything it is easy to be a “big shot” until you are standing firmly in the situation. Your daughter has NOT experienced the miracle of having a child. She also has no experience with couples who are childless. Too many young people have no clue what a blessing having a child is. They take it for granted that they get married and “poof” within the year, they have a child. Isn’t that the way it is supposed to be? And then what do I do with it? I can’t be stuck at home with it, I will be bored..and such.
Well there are some facts that your daughter needs to learn, and that is every baby is precious and one has to think long and hard before one decides to “dump” a child on a babysitter. When it is your child, your baby that you carried for 9 months in your belly and watched grow through the sonograms, it is NOT so easy to just have that kind of attitude. It just isn’t that simple, as all us parents and grandparents already know. One must never ever take a child for granted.June 27, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #781377klachMember
“Not as big as some would make it out to be. It is relatively rare.”
No it’s not – recently, there was a sign out up on the yeshivas bulletin board about this and how it is a big issue more so than people would think.June 27, 2011 12:48 am at 12:48 am #781378
It’s smaller than people are made to believe. Of course even one is one too much. But let’s not over dramatize it. B”H it’s pretty good out there.June 27, 2011 12:51 am at 12:51 am #781379mewhoParticipant
i see this group all over the place. they are upstate in the catskills too. they dont even want to watch their kids. just make em and then ship em to camp or day camp. they do seem to ingest a very large amount of alcohol be it wine or liquorJune 27, 2011 12:57 am at 12:57 am #781380
“Not as big as some would make it out to be. It is relatively rare.”
How do you know this?June 27, 2011 1:02 am at 1:02 am #781381
Do you know otherwise? How so?June 27, 2011 1:06 am at 1:06 am #781382
“Do you know otherwise? How so?”
I didn’t claim to. Nor did I state any opinion on the matter at all. I was just curious as to the definitive nature of your statement.June 27, 2011 1:09 am at 1:09 am #781383
You didn’t challenge klach when he claimed it is a big issue. Why did you only challenge the opposite assertion?June 27, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #781384
I didn’t challenge him for two reasons. First of all, he explained how he arrived at his conclusion (i.e. the sign in Yeshiva). We can all, therefore, chose to give validity to this source or not. You, on the other hand made a statement of claimed fact without explaining your source. I therefore questioned how you arrived at that conclusion so I could decide weather or not I choose to give veracity to what you said.
Secondly, It is far more logical for someone to have what they believe to be evidence that the problem does exist. If someone has first hand knowledge of many cases of abuse, they might draw the conclusion that the people they know represent an average cross-section of frum society and that the problem is therefore prevalent. On the other hand, what evidence would lead a person to be certain that the problem is rare. Do they assume that they would know of every case that existed in their community?June 27, 2011 1:21 am at 1:21 am #781385
Besides, you are avoiding my original question. How do you know that the problem is rare?June 27, 2011 1:23 am at 1:23 am #781386
A sign on a wall doesn’t make it a big issue. Even an issue like this affecting only a small number, needs to be brought to attention, for those affected.June 27, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #781387
Evidence of its rarity: In the secular world there are many arrests for spousal abuse. In the frum world, such arrests are exceedingly rare.
Do you have any contrary evidence, other than suppositions and assumptions?June 27, 2011 1:39 am at 1:39 am #781388
Again, I made no claim to support with evidence.
As for your evidence:
First of all, how do you know that such arrests are exceedingly rare? What facts do you have that say that the arrests are not the same percentage?
Secondly, the argument could be made that the frum community is more insular and therefore abuse is more often covered up.
Finally, are we defining rare as less common than in secular society?June 27, 2011 2:26 am at 2:26 am #781389EzratHashemMember
Has everyone missed the key words in the OP “what should she do at home with him all day–just sit there and look at each other?” Young mothers today sorely need education in how to be a mother to babies, toddlers & pre-schoolers. This is one of the most dynamic and gratifying periods of development during which the mother’s input and actions are critical. I am always floored by the women who imagine it is boring, or just a matter of diapers and feedings. What can the frum kehillas do to help the women understand the points of nurturing and education that they are perfectly suited to give over to their children at that age?June 27, 2011 2:39 am at 2:39 am #781390
Seems that everyone is going off the topic! always runs; how are you feeling?? as far as your kallah is concerned, I love when these girls are so opinionated! wait till she gets a little older and wiser and lets hear what she says then! I try not to get insulted from my kids….. I try not to expect anything from them , so I don’t set myself up for disappointments!June 27, 2011 3:41 am at 3:41 am #781391
thanks a mamin, oomis, ezrathashem, aries, i love coffee, ilovetheholyland.
I feel other mothers out there actually understand me!
Oh and there was one more painful point to this conversation I forgot to tell you. I offered “Well I can take care of your baby, I mean I could open a daycare in my home, and then baby would be with bubby all day…” And her response ?
“Ohhhhhhh….no thanks!” as if I were the last person she would leave a child with.!
I just think the whole thing is so hilarious i feel like calling up my mother and saying I FINALLY UNDERSTAND YOU!!!!June 27, 2011 3:47 am at 3:47 am #781392always hereParticipant
always runs…~ sounds like she has a lot of growing up to do.June 27, 2011 3:51 am at 3:51 am #781393charliehallParticipant
“I also mentioned how she would be better off to just take a full year, receive only a portion of her salary through the maternity leave but at least have that special first year with baby at home.”
There is a young frum couple a block from us that we have often hosted for Shabat. The mom, a lawyer, is staying home with her nine month old. They plan to send the kid to public school so that they can afford to get by without the two of them having to have workaholic careers and not be able to parent their child.June 27, 2011 4:16 am at 4:16 am #781394am yisrael chaiParticipant
Could this behavior perhaps be her struggle with identity & separation so typical of teenagers (& beyond)?
If so, better that she go through it now than later years down the road. Most parents of kids this age describe similar behavior (as well as the moms pulling their hair out, so to speak).
You sound like a very dedicated mom and as such, your daughter will come to appreciate you once again, in due time.
Gam ze yaavor be”H.
To come full circle, it might be a good idea to use this critical time to appreciate your own mother & her struggles. She probably did the best she could.
Wishing you much hatzlacha & patienceJune 27, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #781395ZeesKiteParticipant
There’s one issue I want to point out. Experience has taught us, Kallos – before their Chasuna, can become EXTREMELY unpredictable. Ingratitute, moody, chutzpadik, demanding – all when she should be at her best. It passes. Really. It hurts, but it passes. With patience and good-nature it can be forgotten.June 27, 2011 8:07 am at 8:07 am #781396wanderingchanaParticipant
I worked for several years before our first was born. I had waited so long to be Mommy that I couldn’t bear the thought of going back to work. We made sacrifices so I could work part time. I can’t tell you what I did all day every day, but even if I was just staring at her and making silly faces, it was time well spent.
She probably just can’t imagine the bond that a mother feels to her child. She certainly can’t get that from being around friends’ kids. To be honest, it sounds like she’s still a teenager, and she’s been listening to her friends too much..June 27, 2011 10:27 am at 10:27 am #781397welldressed007Participant
Newton’s third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. What you put in is what you will get! Your child may not know the difference ,however the effects will be felt later on. You make a child, raise the child, they come first not you.June 27, 2011 11:06 am at 11:06 am #781398☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
They plan to send the kid to public school so that they can afford to get by without the two of them having to have workaholic careers and not be able to parent their child.
By lo aleinu sending the child to public school, they’re not properly parenting her.June 27, 2011 11:10 am at 11:10 am #781399flowersParticipant
When I was:
4 years old: My mommy can do anything.
5 years old: My mommy knows a whole lot.
6 years old: My mom is smarter than your mom.
8 years old: My mom doesn’t know exactly everything.
10 years old: In the olden days when my mom grew up, things were sure different.
12 years old: Oh, well, naturally mom doesn’t know anything about that. She is too old to remember her childhood.
14 years old: Don’t pay any attention to my mom. She is so old-fashioned!
21 years old: Her? Oh gosh, she’s hopelessly out-of-date.
25 years old: mom knows a little bit about it, but then she should, because she has been around so long.
30 years old: Maybe we should ask mom what she thinks. After all, she’s had a lot of experience.
35 years old: I’m not doing a single thing until I talk to mom.
40 years old: I wonder how mom would have handled it.June 27, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #781401
Flowers: So well written!!June 27, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #781402
zeeskite: YEs I definately have noticed all these “changes” going on within her, as you mention, since becoming a Kallah.
Baruch Hashem its part and parcel of being healthy and growing up.June 27, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #781403
I think it’s very important for her to learn and develop proper communication skills BEFORE SHE GETS MARRIED.June 27, 2011 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #781404aries2756Participant
always runs with scissors fast, when my first grandchild was born and I bought a car seat my daughter asked me why I need a cars seat, she would never “allow” me to drive alone with her baby. I laugh about it every time I think about it. Now I am asked to “car pool” take three of them places, watch all 4 including the newborn, take them and my other grandkids, etc. Kids are so foolish, they haven’t got a clue.June 27, 2011 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #781405flowersParticipant
I didn’t write it. I copied and pasted it because I thought it applied to this thread. It wasn’t my intention to make it seem like I wrote it.June 27, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #781406
oh aries that is hilarious. I am glad to hear other people’s experiences with their “grown up children”. I hope I can take it all well, as you have described in your self laughing it off.June 28, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #781407
Laughter is great therapy!!June 28, 2011 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #781408m in IsraelMember
Thanks for your apology, always. I know that those who have never been in this situation do not always realize how hard it is. As for your issue with your daughter, I believe it was Mark Twain who is quoted as saying “When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.” Just wait, soon your daughter, too, will soon look as you with a completely new perspective!June 28, 2011 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #781409oomisParticipant
Flowers, I have seen that excellent piece before. Whoever wrote it was right on target. Aries – AMAZING, no? Kids come to realize they need us moms a lot more than they think. When carpool rears its ugly head, THAT’S when it hits them.
I am saddened to hear someone planning to send their child to public school for financial reasons. That SHOULD NEVER be allowed to happen, and it’s a pity on all of us for not yet finding a solution to this problem to making it easier for ALL Jews to send their kids to yeshiva.June 28, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #781410wanderingchanaParticipant
Aries: the day my IL’s showed up with a convertible I davened like you wouldn’t believe. I told my husband, never again…
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