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I’ve been having this thought for a while and would like to know your thoughts.
Living in america is the most luxurious the Jews have ever known to live. So coming from Europe, there are so many changes (even from the american 80’s and 90’s) we see living here. So much technology, comforts of living etc.
I think this is where the line is gray in terms of holding on to the old and the new. There are groups that want to hold onto what WAS and then there are groups who want to embrace what IS.
Is it possible to hold on to the old now? You see in the chassidish world how they hold onto livush, old lifestyle etc.
But is this what Hashem wants from us now?
Please enlighten.
Please clarify with specific examples. What is the “old” that we should or should not be retaining? What kind of lifestyle changes are we talking about here?
Perhaps one example is Chassidish clothing, influenced by Eastern European Jewry.
Does Hashem want Chassids to continue wearing such old-world garments?
Well, what would happen if old-world looking and behaving Jews modernized their look? If they blended in better, then they could more readily assimilate into secular society.
According to old-world Jewry, is it not better to remain connected to their past via dress and customs than risk sympathizing with the contemporary society?
Perhaps fear is another factor. Fear of losing their connection with Hashem if they let go of the old-world yoke. Perhaps some Jews want to pay tribute to their ancestors by keeping their traditions alive. Some Jews in every time clashed with their present society at large. Not all Jews are old-world. Still, don’t the old-world Jews give back to all Jews, secular, MO, etc, with their traditional ways?
Granted, I definitely believe that some (abusive) old-world customs ought to be discarded. When it comes to punishing children with violence (hitting and humiliating one’s children which I have witnessed first hand), and smacking children in cheder, I pray that the old-world mentality will soften and realize that just because zedi or whoever did it does not mean that such ways are best or healthy.
IMHO, we inherited many traumas over the centuries. Hashem would want us to be healthy, kind, optimistic, and empathetic.
What’s your take?
There is nothing particularly Jewish or Torahdik about Chassidish garb…
Yes, assimilation is not good. But just look around you– Jews don’t assimilate just because they shop at Target or TJ Maxx. You can choose to wear polo shirts and khakis, or knit tops and jean skirts, and not lose anything of your Yiddishkeit. It doesn’t make you “sympathize” with the secular world or lose your connection to Hashem.
Chasidish garb is simply more or less the same garb Jews wore 200 and more years ago. Non-Chasidim wore those garbs too but over time, often due to force by the non-Jewish governments, stopped dressing as such.
You can find photos of Yekkes with long curly payos like the Chasidim. Shtreimels were worn by misnagdim. And long rekels were the norm in Lita until the Russian government passed a law against it and starting beating Jews who continued wearing it.
jewishfeminist02: Chassidic garb is very Jewish, but that is because historically Jews were required to dress differently from the non-Jewish population. IMHO Chassids who chose to reframe the situation from one of obligation, to one of pride and homage is a testament of Jewish strength and the will to reveal the light from limiting circumstances.
Btw: Of course not all Jews who affiliate with Chassidism wear old-world style clothing from Eastern Europe or their relatively recent ancestral lands.
If you want to talk about something else, please go ahead.
Thank you
What did chasidim wear before the Bal Shem Tov and chasidic rebbes? Chasidim gave up their own “old lvush” to embrace the “new” chasidish clothing. Polish chasim gave up wearing the “kashketlech” of polish jews after WW2. I am chasidish but couldn’t figure out what’s to go and what’s to stay. Long payos arn’t really only chasidish. Yemenites all had long payos. Chabad chasidim mostly don’t have long payos at all and dress modern during the week. It seems its been pick and choose on what will be worn.
truthbetold: You asked, “Is it possible to hold on to the old now? You see in the chassidish world how they hold onto livush, old lifestyle etc.
“But is this what Hashem wants from us now?” (truthbetold).
Of course I need to start off by saying that I don’t think it is possible for anyone to certainly say what Hashem wants of us, as individuals and broader group.
At the same time, doesn’t it help us to have diversity? It’s weird because then some people may be born into living a lifestyle that they don’t feel comfortable living. Baal teshuvahs may be born living in a secular world but then later embrace the old-world chassidic lifestyle. Someone who grew up chassidic may want to become more modern, or let go of observances. It’s weird because the ways of living a certain life come with beliefs. Traditions have meanings. A certain Shabbos headwear may be distinctive in one’s family and heritage. So deciding to only wear a kippa on Shabbos may be taken as an insult by some family members. Then again, there are certainly families that put unconditional love at the forefront, and do not let preferences between choosing old-vs-new lifestyles get in the way of being one.
I think Hashem wants us to embrace each other and show love to all people. Maybe that’s too liberal, but it seems like that’s the bottom line. Each person must find his or her own way to bring light to this world. Whether it’s by following old-customs, or by integrating in modernity, or anywhere else along the spectrum, IMHO Hashem wants us to live with compassion. I think that’s the bottom line.
Please elaborate on your question
“Chassidic garb is very Jewish, but that is because historically Jews were required to dress differently from the non-Jewish population.”
In that case, I suppose yellow stars are also “very Jewish”. Maybe we should go back to wearing them.
With regard in particular to the basic dress of your average frum Torah Jew, e.g. white shirt and black trousers, this is not necessarily ‘old’. It is a relatively common modern style. What marks it out is it’s formality, and it’s uniformity. Or in other words, that we all wear it, all the time (I’ve focused on men for simplicity).
The two primary reason, amongst others, for this mode of dress are relatively simple. Dignity and identity. Firstly, dignity. If you consider the alternatives, the most common casual modes of dress amongst the general population, i.e. jeans, t-shirts, etc., apart from often being immodest, simply do not convey the dignity apropos of a Torah Jew. By dressing in a formal and relatively distinguished manner, we are conveying a desire to dress in a manner fitting to the way we aspire to lead our lives.
And identity too is important. The ‘yellow star’ analogy is offensive and misguided. Maintaining a strong distinct identity is important, indeed crucial, to the effective observance of Judaism. Other cultures dress differently for precisely this reason, and feel no need to apologise or self-flagellate for doing so. And when what is being preserved is a not simply a cultural identity, but a religious one, it gains extra levels of significance and importance.
I would like to add that nothing of what I’ve said above means less homogeneous dress, whilst maintaining dignity and a Jewish identity, is invalid or wrong. Simply that this is a correct and important practice, and should be recognised as such.
And on a personal note, when I travel or simply go out, being dressed in this way, clearly Jewish, dressed more formally, and in a far more dignified manner than most around me, certainly enhances my connection to yiddishkeit and my inherent value as a Jew. To paraphrase Shakespeare and/or Mark Twain,
“Clothes make the man”
The analogy was meant to be provocative. I was responding to lightbrite, who suggested that clothing that our ancestors wore because they were required by secular governments to differentiate themselves from the general population, is “Jewish” clothing. It’s not. Just because we historically did this or that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a part of our identity. It depends what the reason was. If we had our own independent traditions to wear such and such, that would be a different story. But if we wore it because the government told us to? Uh-uh. No different than a yellow star.
Fair enough. I did actually write that you obviously intended to be provocative, but my original post was lost. I suppose that was a fair response to lightbrite’s assumption, I simply found the analogy between regular distinct Jewish dress and the yellow star disconcerting. My apologies.
Jews have always dressed differently than non-Jews. At all times in Jewish history there has been a Jewish mode of dress. It may have differed between different Jewish customs in different locals, but each place dressed distinctively Jewish. (Other than the Hellenists and other, later, assimilators.)
Neut, you’ve overlooked a more important reason why the white shirt/ black pants is a relative recent adoption.
Prewar Europe had no social net and one had to work to eat. Shtetl Jews were peddlers, bakers, tradesmen and manual laborers. White shirts and black dress slacks were not appropriate. However, now that non professional labor has so fallen out of favor, the mode of dress has shifted.
Joseph, in what specific way did weekday work clothes of the average Polish or Russian Jew differ from their gentile neighbors?
It differed. In Poland it differed in one way and in Italy it differed another way. If you saw a Jew in the street on a weekday you would immediately know it’s a Jew.
” simply more or less the same garb Jews wore 200 and more years ago”
Only in one part of the world.
“Jews have always dressed differently than non-Jews. “
The Israel Museum in Jerusalem has an ethnography exhibit that proves that that is not true. For most of history we have dressed pretty similarly to non-Jews in the same geographic area. (One of my favorite examples, that I have often mentioned, is the adoption by Jews for the Fedora hat!) In recent times, frum Jews have consciously dressed more modestly than non-Jews but that wasn’t really necessary until the 20th century.
There is among some an attachment to pigeon German.
Joseph, as usual, you were making things up , have no answer and respond with a crude nazi reference.
That’s “pidgin.”
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