January 29, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #635320intellegentMember
I don’t really know you and even if I did, I would have no way of answering that question.
Also I should emphasize that most people do not fit neatly into one of those two catagories. People are very complicated. I know that I had some circumstances in my childhood that I could have used as the perfect excuse to rebel. I can’t even really say that I conquored my yetzer hara or anything, because I never really desired anything other than keeping a very high standard of frumkeit. On the other hand, I’m sure there were times I did things very wrongly as a result of the circumstances that I was in. My kibbud av v’em was compromised. However, although if I would have had the “perfect” situation (which no one has btw) I would not have acted the way I did. So what/who is to blame, my situation, or ME? The answer is ME. H-m gave me my set of nisyonos in order to grow from. We all have bechira and can choose how to deal with a situation. We also have a very strong yetzer hara which makes it extremely hard. H-m is aware of this but still our job here on this world is to fight and fight and fight some more (with the yetzer hara, not our parents 🙂 ). I like to say that we cannot “judge” anyone but we can say it’s “wrong”. which means that if someone decides to throw away torah, we cannot pass judgement and decide how wrong it is and what they should have done. However, we cannot either say that they are “right”. They are wrong but maybe if we would be in their shoes we would do the same.
You have to realize that after 120 everyone will be judged, no exceptions. Realize why you came down to this world and realize there are no excuses.
btw, I just went back and read an other comment you made and i think that you think that there is such a thing as not being held liable. if you say he’ll take the gehinom and stick with his friends that means that you think that you can do whatever you want. Oh well.January 29, 2009 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #635321sttobMember
I’m not quite following with e/th that’s going on here-but from experience let me tell you-a lot of this off the D stuff comes from an insecure feeling in the home-when childern feel like their parents are not really listening to what they have to say and they are not enchouraged to speak their feelings-basically a big chunk of OTD is a LACK OF COMMUNICATION!
alright now-go argue!!!!January 30, 2009 12:57 am at 12:57 am #635322SJSinNYCMember
Itzik, I am talking more about the kids who are on the cusp, or experimenting with going off the derech. I had some friends at various parts of life like that. Most benefitted by still having their frum friends around, even if we disapproved of what they were doing. We were always clear that no, it wasnt ok to eat treif or do inappropriate things with boys or do drugs of any kind. Most came back to the fold. Some left.
I have one friend who married a guy who isnt frum. She says she still is, although I am not 100% sure (I once got an email from her timestamped on shabbos). But I would never get rid of her as a friend because of that – she is really a wonderful person, who doesnt keep all of halacha. There is no sense in “kicking her to the curb” because it wouldnt accomplish anything. I hope that when she moves back to NY in a few years, she will move back to being orthodox.
Granted, the guy you mentioned would be thrown out of my office in a heartbeat!January 30, 2009 7:40 am at 7:40 am #635323teenMember
just wondering y r we calling this a crisis???? honestly there are not a whole lot of kids of the derech more than three quarters are on….obviously i am talking about kidsw who were brought up religious
is it just that everything is called a crisis so this is just one more?January 30, 2009 9:41 am at 9:41 am #635325Itzik_sMember
SJS, you are an adult and it is very different – you’re not hanging out together, not worried about your parents not wanting you seen with her etc etc.
Maybe I come from a particular dynamic where the difference in the lives of frum and OTD are so sharp that there is no way the twain could meet – our young men spend free time putting tefillin on with people etc etc etc and the off guys tend to hang out in various places and smoke and drink OR they go to a drop in center where they can “find themselves” and are not forced to be frum but are not allowed to do anything ossur on the premises. The rav who runs it is a friend of mine and a mutual friend of ours does similar work in E”Y but more informally so that I am connected there. It works very well because it is very open and there is no judging either way – the guys invited me, the blackest of the black, to spend time with them which I would have done had I not relocated.
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