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January 27, 2014 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #611981recipesMember
I wrote this letter recently to someone. We were discussing what the point of Torah Learning is. I am interested in feedback.
The Chida (In Berchei Yosef Siman 36) writes “??? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????” the entire preciousness of Torah is because it brings us to do the Mitzvos.
The Rambam also writes “??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????”
You will not find one Rashi in Chumash that speaks about Torah (and there are many of them – at least 20) that doesn’t mention learning Torah together with doing the Mitzvos.
It’s not a coincidence that in ???? ??? when we Daven for Torah write after asking for ????? ????? we ask for ????? ?????? ??????.
Every time the Torah mentions Learning Torah it is together with doing Mitzvos 1. ?????? ???? ?????? ??????
2. “?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????”
(There are many more Lishonos in the Rishonim along the same lines but I’ll spare you.)
You ask
Even if the gemora is talking about relevant cases, usually it isn’t relevant right now for the person learning and especially if he will never be a posek?
That is true, but learning Torah is not just a Hechsher Mitzva like building a Sukah or walking to Shul. Learning the Torah is an expression of our love to Hashem, your telling Hashem look how precious your will is to me, I am willing to work so hard just to understand your will.
See the beautiful words of Rabeynu Yona in Avos 4 5 that describes the optimal way to learn Torah
?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????
You asked
But if you are not learning gemora lhalacha what would you say the goal is?
There is a letter from the Rambam, that recently came out, that already decried this tendency this is what it says
??? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??. ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????. ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ???????.
The purpose of Torah is already lost, and the Lamdani, waste their time as if the Shakla Vitarya is a point in and of itself, but this isn’t true the Shakla Vitarya just cam Bimikra when people are trying to understand the Torah but the real purpose is just to understand what the Mitzvos are.
What’s the point of this learning? The official answer they give is that the point is that they are learning how to learn, this is fine if they plan on eventually putting in at least the amount of time they spent learning how to learn as the time they spent learning, but what about the others? Some answer that the same way people learn slowly even though they should be learning quicker in bec. it’s more G’shmak, it’s also an excuse not to learn Halacha since they get more of a G’shamk through not learning Halacha.
Do they get a Mitzva?
I heard from my Rosh Yeshova that even though the purpose of Torah is to learn Halacha, when Hashem gave the Mitzva of Torah it wasn’t confined to only learning Halacha, rather even learning without the goal to get to Halacha also gets a Mitzva. This is known from the fact that the Gemara will sometimes ask about a certain case that this is impossible to happen so why are you discussing it, and the Gemara will answer ???? ???? ???, apparently even though ?? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????, There is still a Mitzva even if that is not the goal. (Obviously (as the ???? ???? ??? ??’ ????? ???? ?’ ?’ points out)it won’t be ???? ???? ???? though.)
January 28, 2014 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1000704LevAryehMemberSee Tosafos in Bava Kama 17a about gadol Talmud torah (don’t remember the d”h at the moment).
January 28, 2014 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1000705☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????. ??’ ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??????? (?? ?: ???) ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??????? [??????] ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? :
January 29, 2014 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1000706LogicianParticipantWithout replying to the actual points you are making, let me point out that you seems to me that you are confusing two topics.
The POINT of learning may be expressed as a connection to Hashem, as many seforim say.
The proper FORM of learning, you are attempting to prove with your quotes, may be al minas la’asos. That is how “l’ma’an” – “purpose” is being used in these rishonim. The way to learn is to learn “in order” to know what to do – but the mitzvah of learning was given “in order” to connect us to Hashem.
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