The Post Kollel Financial Crisis

This is from Sotah 44a:

תנו רבנן אשר בנה אשר נטע אשר ארש לימדה תורה דרך ארץ שיבנה אדם בית ויטע כרם ואח”כ ישא אשה ואף שלמה אמר בחכמתו הכן בחוץ מלאכתך ועתדה בשדה לך אחר ובנית ביתך הכן בחוץ מלאכתך זה בית ועתדה בשדה לך זה כרם אחר ובנית ביתך זו אשה

It is a valid point that learning after marriage before engaging in parnosoh has its benefits. But the question to ask is whether this is the derech the Torah guides us to follow. The above excerpt from the gemora tells us clearly that this is NOT what to do. It does not say go to college, but it does clearly demand that parnosoh not be delayed or postponed.

It is said that this was posed to Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L as a question when he was embarking on establishing the kollel concept in America. He responded that this was a הוראת שעה. Even Rav Aharon fully recognized that the Chazal were smarter than us, and that they did not believe in the current trend to ignore the fundamental responsibility of ואפרנס ליכי that is spelled out in the כתובה. Learning is always great, but it does not absolve anyone from the Torah obligation to support a family. And it is not the chiyuv of the community or the public to fund that desire to learn.

The same proponents for the filling of the kollel beis hamedrash have nothing to advise for the sufferers of the post kollel financial crisis. How do they assume the responsibility for placing yungerleit there?

The point has been made here repeatedly on multiple topics and in multiple contexts. The notion of a very large percentage of chareidi young men foregoing any secular education and vocational training and instead spending 10+ years shteiging while throwing their families on the welfare rolls is a true chillul hashem (overused term) and totally inconsistent with how prior generations (with exceptions for a few future gaonim) found the time to do both. These yungerleit fully know the hole they are digging for themselves and their families by rejecting all the available options today to combine secular studies and job training with their learning so the laments about making the transition after 10 years of zero effort on acquiring the skills for a paranassah cannot be taken credibly.

Anyone who tries to give contructive critism of the topic is usually shouted down. There will be no changes.

The mean income in the US is #$53,000. to expect $70,000 with no education and no experience is unrealistic.

The only jobs that pay higher salaries like that are professionals like Doctors or Lawyer or sales people and a few other scatterd jobs that you need degrees for.

The mean income in the US is #$53,000. to expect $70,000 with no education and no experience is unrealistic.

He said he wasn’t offered more than 70k, but that implies that he was offered 70.

If he was offered $70,000 he should have taken it and be very grateful

While I was learning in Kollel 3 sedarim I used my bein hasedarim times (including Erev and Motzaei Shabbos) to take on-line courses and prepare for tests. When it came time to leave Kollel after a number of years I had the education to obtain a job and start supporting my family.

Perhaps we need to have advisors associated with the Kollelim that can advise individual Kollel members on how to start preparting for earning a parnassa during their down times in Kollel so that they are prepared and trained to find a job as soon as they leave Kollel. Why haven’t these advisors been established already, and what have Kollel yungeleit been doing with their bein hazemanim and bain hasedarim times?

Kollel yungerleit are smart, resourceful, proficient and trained to do do several things at one time and should be positioned to land some jobs that can provide serious parnassas!

Unlike employers, who set a salary without regard to family size (young single guys can be paid a fortune while married guys with many children can be paid a pittance), government entitlement benefits pay more benefits the larger the family size. Thus a larger family loses more when switching from government benefits to employment than a smaller family.

Several commenters used some version of the phrase “losing government benefits”. This is objectionable. These are entitlements for which one needs to qualify. If someone gains employment, they do not really lose benefits, and it was not theirs to lose. All that really happened was that they progressed in life to where they no longer qualified. I don’t fault those who express themselves this way. we are conditioned to feel entitled, that these benefits are ours. Well, no, they are not. They might be given to us if we are eligible. Just look at how we have been trained to think. We have a huge problem in attitude that underlies the myth of “kollel for everybody” and the propensity to calculate these benefits as part of the family budget. It is this attitude that leads way too many to be מורה היתר with regards to compromised honesty and the circus that affected Lakewood these past 2 weeks.

If the secular press (both blue and red versions) is to be believed, all young adults have great problems of insecurity. Indeed, that seems to be an aspect of being a young adult. If someone goes to kollel and then decides they want to change career tracts (i.e. not become a Torah educator or other communal functionary), they need to expect to retrain – but that’s true of almost every young adult who wants to change career, and changing careers is something young adults do frequently. If fact, former kollel students are in some ways better off since someone who goes to a private university in the hope of a career in humanities will be deeply in debt from student loans, and just as employable in the “real world” as a kollel person, and without the option of working for the Jewish community (e.g. compare the prospects of a PhD in Classics to a kollel student leaving kollel).

TLIK, you can pontificate all you want, the fact is that people at a certain threshold are worse off financially for earning more money.

Regarding what R’ Bender said:
Does he think it needs to change? I guess so, but the question is how. I can tell you what he does.
He established a special gemach specifically for alumni of Darchei. He also set up a program to teach vocational skills to both kollel members and community members who are in need. They can learn plumbing, electrical work, and other skills. They have classes in computer skills. You can start taking advantage while a kollel member – they have classes scheduled at times that can work for most people. I believe the cost is also significantly reduced for kollel members.

DY:

You wrote, ” you can pontificate all you want, the fact is that people at a certain threshold are worse off financially for earning more money.”

That is correct. But that is an anomaly of the government systems that give these handouts. I would fully agree that this matter should be examined for modification. But that is the legislators’ problem. We continue to be left facing a harsh reality. It is simply impossible to enter the world of career at a late stage and expect to make the progress to the level of someone that has been there much earlier. And that is precisely what the prevailing belief is in the frum community regarding kollel, and that is exactly the definition of the “Post Kollel Financial Crisis”. If we keep believing that fire is not hot, we are at risk of continuing to get burned.

There are not enough chinuch, rabbinical, or communal jobs to accommodate the population of bnei kollel. Davening for this to change is, at the very least, a תפלת שוא. It is also a fantasy to expect every kollel yungerman to qualify for such positions. Does anyone honestly believe that sitting in kollel for 12 years prepares someone to teach elementary school yeshiva students? And with the glut of supply for mechanchim, simple economics would keep salaries dangerously low. That’s a no win situation.

We certainly need to make wages in chinuch competitive, and this can be made reasonable by requiring training before getting a position in the chinuch profession. But that would help a tiny fraction of yungerleit who need to establish themselves as baalei parnosoh. We need to abandon the attitude that makes a working Ben Torah into a second class citizen. And we should be encouraging the inclusion of קביעות עתים לתורה into the working life as a norm that is a source of pride to Klal Yisroel. I would group such people together with the כלי קודש who derive their parnosoh from chinuch, serving as rabbonim, magidei shiurim, etc. The inclusion of all לומדי תורה is a source of great pride to הקב”ה, and this is ישראל אשר בך אתפאר.

But as long as we deride career as a source of shame, we will continue to see young families live in their delusion and fantasy for several years, only to be rudely awakened later.

GadolH: Are you talking about this thread or in Klal Yisroel in general? I for one agree with you. My children know that I am not in a position to support. Most of my older children work at least part time.

to Gadolhador ah, re: “why is it impossible”

Probably for the same region humanities graduates for universities tend not to go into areas involving mathematics, computers, etc. – it doesn’t interest them. If you don’t like manual work (machinists, construction work, farming) and don’t like math (rules out engineeering and most sciences) and can’t stand the sight of blood (forget about become a shochet, or a doctor). If someone was inclined to be tool and die maker, or an engineer, or a professional “geek” (computer expert), or something medical, they probably would have planned on doing so from the start.

The goyim have the same problem with millions of unemployable humanities majors who skill set, and inclincations, leading them to unemployability. Perhaps the solution is to expose children in elemntary school, to various fields of STEM, mechanical skills, etc, in hopes the kids will develop an interest. We should stop worrying that there is something wrong with “our” schools, since the problem is shared with everyone else’s.

There are many dedicated learners who are fortunate to have affluent parents and/or in-laws or a wife who has a professional career who can provide the resources to support a family in comfort. However, in the absence of those options, one presumes that those choosing to learn full-time have developed a plan or strategy for economic sustenance beyond “the Ebeshter will provide” or “the taxpayers of NY/NJ have an obligation to support my wife and family”.

I find this discussion sad and depressing. Grown, married men with children have no business “learning” until they have a clear and sound plan for parnassah. Yeshivas and kollels are partly to blame, and parents who let their sons think the Kollel fairy (tooth fairy’s frum brother) will provide for their families are the biggest threat to the future of frum Jews.

Meno:

Sorry, but you are in la-la land.

Firstly, Klal Yisroel gives fortunes in tzedokoh. While there is likely a small number of people who are miserly and give less tzedokoh than they can, it is mostly the other way around. Our community can boast of countless tzedokos for hachnosas kallah, infertility, medical costs and needs, feeding poor families, and others. There is also a staggering variety of gemachs. Add to that, there are massive amounts of tzedokoh that go on between people that do not involve organizations or publicity. No one takes being machazik Torah lightly. With all that is already going on, in very handsome numbers, all yeshivos are hurting. Before making an accusation like you did, just ask. There is a lot being given to support Torah. The needs are far greater.

Second, you are talking party line, and completely ignoring the real issue. You are once again allowing anyone who wants the label as Kollel Yungerman to take it, without demonstrated merit, and at the expense of everyone else (community support and government). That is foolish, futile, and dangerous. That is what led to the current matzav. The culture of dependency is found nowhere in Torah. In fact, we specify in ברכת המזון, that we do not want to be dependent on others.

ונא אל תצריכנו ה’ אלקינו לא לידי מתנת בשר ודם ולא לידי הלואתם.

We baalei batim have all the education we need about supporting Torah. That does not include supporting someone who should not sit in kollel for years of unproductive time. It does not mean assisting someone to achieve the status entry level – low pay jobs when he has already a sizable family. This is an aveiroh for the yungerman, and all the helpers carry the responsibility as מסייע לדבר עבירה. If you are looking to re-educate me, spare yourself the wasted time and effort.

Lastly, as ZD said, there are wealthy people who give generously to so many causes. The rest of us are making ends meet (hopefully), and our tzedokoh dollars are limited. If you had your way, most all the baalei batim would be barely eking out a living so that there would be hardly any tzedokoh available from them for supporting Torah. Rethink your comment please.

Asking for input. Many yungerman are a bit surprised when they are 29 or 34 and not sure where to start looking for parnassah. When they were 23 they probably did not realize how much it would cost to raise a family, and maybe even how money “really” works. Would it help if yeshiva alumni, maybe CPA’s or similar, would give a short one-hour presentation to guys when they’re second, third year beis mederash, and so these issues would be a bit on their minds much earlier on. Maybe the Agudah would put together some sort of seminar on the basics of finances, which might be helpful way down the line when someone is thinking more seriously about the rest of their lives. Thoughts?

Meno:

You missed the point. If this is your question, then your comment would be interpreted as implying the need to re-educate Klal Yisroel to redirect all tzedokoh funds to yeshivos and kollelim, and to render all others secondary. That thought frightens me greatly, and I doubt you will find any support for such an idea, not in any reputable Torah sources, nor among Gedolei Hador.

My message was that there is a wealth of tzedokoh being given, and no one needs more education on the subject. Yeshivos and other Torah related causes are recipients of generous support from the entire Klal. No one doubts that the needs are greater than the proceeds they get. But it is bizarre to think that there is education that will alter what is already going on. Either such education won’t work, or it looks for non-existent monies. It is probably also inconsistent with the halachos of tzedokoh as in Shulchan Aruch and Rambam. I would put you to the challenge to demonstrate, with Torah references, that one must divert tzedokoh from all other causes to Torah institutions.

Meno – tremendous tzedakah is given for limud Torah. Even ignoring the tremendous costs of tuition (is that not the most beautiful example of “supporting Limud HaTorah”?!), many communities have local yeshivas and kollelim which they help support, in large sums. And all this is after they contribute to poor people who cannot help themselves. As it is, I’m sure that BMG and similar kollelim receive millions of dollars in donations per year. Of course that’s not enough to support everyone! But, do you expect everyone to just double their donation?! And then if every random kid on the street wants to sit and learn, that the tzibbur should pay him to learn? This sounds a bit crazy to me.

Supporting a person who can’t work is tzedaka, which is mandatory. Supporting an able-bodied adult who chooses instead to learn in hachzokas hatorah, which is voluntary.

Meno:

You crept into another hole. It is not for you or me or anyone else for that matter to determine whether someone has given enough tzedokoh, nor are we authorized to allocate it for them. I know many fundraisers for yeshivos. They always want more than they get. But, for that matter, so does every single fundraiser for any other tzedokoh. There is nothing that will be done that can accomplish the redirection to yeshivos and kollelim. It remains my choice completely whether to give to a yeshiva, a keren for chassanim and kallos, a soup kitchen, or countless other causes. In fact, the Purim scene is flooded with kids collecting for yeshivos, when hachzokas Torah is not a tad different on Purim than any other day of the year (the collectors consider it so, as do the yeshivos). In reality, all of these causes are worthy, and this goes without debate. Donors are free to allocate as they see fit.

But again, you changed the subject. Is it permissible (halacha, yashrus, common sense) to enter long term learning on yenem’s expense? Doesn’t it create voluntary poverty and dependence? Or should the yungerman who wishes to learn begin some degree of the process of getting prepared for a career? How should one approach the financial crisis of the emerging kollel yungerman who no longer has the youth or the time to engage in career training? And there are two questions here. One – should this situation be avoided? Two – once in this matzav, what should one do?