August 5, 2022 11:39 am at 11:39 am #2112486
“The mishna in Pirkei Avos sets forth … which is generally understood to mean … [a]t the time of the mishna, its quite possible that those criteria were frequently met by many bochurim”
This reasoning – making up a reason for a mishna or halacha, declaring that that reason no longer applies today, and thus throwing out the mishna or halacha, is a hallmark of the Conservative and Reform movements’ justifications for changing or rejecting Torah precepts, R”L. Like when a guy lectured me that the Torah says not to kindle lights on Shabbos because that was a really hard thing to do back in the old days, and that work primarily fell on the women, and therefore to make sure that women could also rest on Shabbos, no kindling lights. And of course now that kindling lights is easy we don’t need to worry about it so much anymore… Not only did he get the halacha and hashkafa wrong, he got the history wrong as well.
“or presumably, that was the Tana’s recollection of when HE felt prepared for marriage”
Do you think the Tannaim just made up their Torah as they went along, CV”S?
“Nowhere does the mishna make shidduchim contingent upon a W-2 showing sufficient earning to support his wife and family”
So why are you trying to limit young marriage to something only the rich can do?August 5, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2112493
@Avram in MD
The cost of loaning the money at no interest for home purchases was far less than the cost of an apartment in Israel. These were starter homes and our children put down 25% down payments that came from their earnings.
All paid off the loans within 5-7 years. When they sold and upsized, they did it on their own.
Why did MRS. CTL and I work so hard for our adult lives if not for our family?
We don’t support our adult children and grandchildren, they are professionals who earn good money. We paid for our childrens’ undergraduate educations, not professional/grad schools. We did not pay for our grandchildrens’ education. Yes, we have passed down the occasional old car and a couple of the kids stayed in our Brooklyn house (it was originally where my father was born 100 years ago) while in school in NYC. I stayed in my sister’s in Massachusetts 2 nights a week when I was in law school, big deal.
MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.
To get back to the point of this thread, those coming to minyanim to schnor wedding funds, I find it unacceptable. I’m a Justice of the Peace, I’d marry them for nothing in my office, enough frum Yidden there to make a minyan and I’ll break out a bottle of scnhaaps and kichel afterwards.
Weddings are overblown and overpriced.August 5, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2112505
Avram, not defending a particular read of the Mishna, but there’s a clear difference between mitzvah from the Torah and a social rabbinical regulation. Gemora is full of social and psychological insights that guide their decisions and it is not such a big leap that some respectful adjustments need to happen. Many people for example ignore Rambam’s and others position forbiding payment for Torah learning etc so you may want to answer on substance instead of accusing him of kefirahAugust 5, 2022 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #2112510
There you go again, taking the Rambam out of context, and even more so out of historical and halachic context.August 5, 2022 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #2112499
CTL, every 18 year old has an obligation to get married. Bread, salt and water, if they have that, they have parnassa. They may not delay marriage for financial purposes. It is Halachicly prohibited.August 5, 2022 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #2112511
MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.
תורה מה תהא עליהAugust 5, 2022 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2112513August 5, 2022 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #2112538
“MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.”
My point is that you have control over your offspring. You are raising them according to your beliefs. Many people believe differently. Just like you can choose which store to shop at and which brands to buy, you can also choose which charities you wish to support. But even if you are passionate about your reasons for not shopping at Kmart or Bergdorf Goodman, those businesses serve their demographics.
Your chinuch preferences are yours to make but saying that everyone else is wrong seems close-minded.August 5, 2022 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2112540
“To get back to the point of this thread, those coming to minyanim to schnor wedding funds, I find it unacceptable. I’m a Justice of the Peace, I’d marry them for nothing in my office, enough frum Yidden there to make a minyan and I’ll break out a bottle of scnhaaps and kichel afterwards.”
Why is it unacceptable to ask? Demanding, stalking, bullying, exploiting for donations is nasty business, but you have a problem with asking? Just say no.August 5, 2022 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #2112541
I feel very annoyed that there are families in which the kids have no food to eat and its because of specific life choices that the parents have made. I am not talking about people who are unlucky. I am talking about people who do it on purpose. I think it’s irresponsible and silly that they are choosing soliciting as their form of profession. But unacceptable is too strong for me.August 5, 2022 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2112542
“The cost of loaning the money at no interest for home purchases was far less than the cost of an apartment in Israel.”
Over the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan, homeowners typically pay out $100,000-$200,000 in interest, and much of the interest is paid early in the life of the loan, which slows building the equity that can be used to sell and “upsize.” For this reason it doesn’t normally make sense to finance a home and then sell it in 5-7 years unless the property value skyrockets. So to provide an interest free loan to your kids to purchase a home is big-league support.
“our children put down 25% down payments that came from their earnings. All paid off the loans within 5-7 years.”
That CTLaw firm must pay quite well. They’re lucky the firm took special notice of them and offered them jobs.
“Why did MRS. CTL and I work so hard for our adult lives if not for our family?”
Kol hakavod! I think what you are doing is absolutely wonderful. I just don’t understand why you’re looking down at other families who are also helping support their children.
“I stayed in my sister’s in Massachusetts 2 nights a week when I was in law school, big deal.”
It is a big deal, and I hope you showed hakaras hatov to your sister.
“MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.”
And my point is that that not only is that viewpoint the antithesis of Torah Judaism, it is cruel, because it makes marriage the privilege of the elite. And it surprises me that it’s three Democrats – the party that supposedly cares about the poor – who have chimed in with this position.
“those coming to minyanim to schnor wedding funds, I find it unacceptable.”
Well, the Torah is not based on what you personally find to be unacceptable, or what commonsaychel finds to be humiliating. We have a mitzvah to be misameach a chosson and kallah and to provide for their wedding. In fact, the gemara tells us that those who do so earn reward in this world without decreasing their reward in olam haba. So those “schnorrers” who are coming into your shul are bathing in diamonds, and tossing some on the tables and selling them to you for that wrinkled dollar in your pocket.
I’m a Justice of the Peace, I’d marry them for nothing in my office, enough frum Yidden there to make a minyan and I’ll break out a bottle of scnhaaps and kichel afterwards.
If that will bring the chosson and kallah joy, go for it!
“Weddings are overblown and overpriced.”
On this we agree.August 5, 2022 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2112543
Where does an 18 year old with no money live, the street? A better question is why aren’t the Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshiva enforcing your p’sak? The Yeshivos are full of single young men that age and higher.August 5, 2022 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2112564
DY > taking the Rambam out of context, and even more so out of historical and halachic context.
this is exactly my point. Avram above defends applying Pirkei Avos literally to current social situation. At the same time, here yo are calling to put Rambam away into historical context. Tiuvta Avram tiuvta, do we agree?
At the same time, one does not reject social takanos (of which Rambam is, it is in the book of halakha, but Pirkei Avos is not, it is more of etza, I think) just because we don’t like it. And even if circumstances call to follow a different advice, we can still take the lessons and aspiration from both Pirkei Avos and Rambam.August 5, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2112567
Dofi, how much rent would a one bedroom basement cost a new couple?August 5, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2112568
“Gemora is full of social and psychological insights that guide their decisions and it is not such a big leap that some respectful adjustments need to happen.”
Big difference between understanding applied psak and Torah values as passed down from the gemara through the rishonim, acharonim, etc. and making up some interpretation that fits your own beliefs and then changing the Torah to conform.August 5, 2022 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #2112574
“Avram above defends applying Pirkei Avos literally to current social situation.”
I said nothing about taking it literally or not. GH manufactured a reason for the statement, and used it to place a limit on who can marry. That is what I objected to.August 5, 2022 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #2112598
Why don’t any Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva enforce your p’sak?August 5, 2022 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #2112602
Avram: Your reading of my post was that the Tana in the Mishna “made up” the 18 yo age for kiddushin w/o any basis. Not what I said. There had to be some rationale for 18yo (versus 17 yo or 19 yo)……it is an age level where he believed that a young man was READY to assume the responsibilities for marriage and presumably, his conclusion was informed by his own experience, based on what he knew at the time. If the age was simply a function of the earliest age when a young man could produce children, the mishna would have said 14 yo.
As to your belief that one should marry w/o regard to their ability to support themselves, some of us disagree. If they have parents who can readily support them, fine. If not, they have some responsibility to accrue the resources w/o forcing their parents to beg for money. Its within their ability to work and obtain those funds on their own. If they choose not to, thats their decision. My reference to W-2s did not establish a wealth test for marriage. If you intention is to have children asap, then its also your responsibility to be able to provide for their medical care, food, housing etc. (or should the parents go out and beg for that money too after they’ve finished paying off the caterer).August 5, 2022 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #2112612
Dofi: Do you think they’re capable of enforcing it? If they’re not capable of doing so, you have no question.August 5, 2022 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2112614
Dorah: Having children asap is a biblical obligation not to be trifled with over financial considerations. Do you think parents of 10 or more children were able to “afford” it? If not, do you believe they should have had less and thereby you fault them for having birthed “too many” children?August 6, 2022 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #2112706
Gadol, I presume that Mishna gives ages that would work for an average person, taking into account experience of that time. In a related example, bava basra lists multiple ways to educate kids- by parents, kohanim in yerushalaim, at regional centers, and for each explains why it didn’t work: not all parents were good teachers, too far to drive, teenagers wouldn’t listen, until coming up with the system that worked: local Rebbes in every town. It is mefurash here they didn’t have some magical wisdom what to do, they tried different systems, it took many years until Yehoshua Ben Gamla came up with the right solution . Dame thing with marriage: they saw marriages at 14 fail, and men at 20 doing wrong things so 18 it was
Bavel was already different, where young man could marry and go learn after that away from family, different from EYAugust 6, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2112700
I’ll continue to hold by my apikorsus that it is irresponsible for parents to have children they know they cannot afford to feed, house and care for.August 6, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2112722
The Roshei Yeshiva whose yeshivos are filled with single young men over 18 would bar them if they held of your p’sak. Obviously, they feel that bachurim that young still need to learn for several years before starting to date. Or do you have another explanation as to why they don’t hold of your fatwa?August 7, 2022 12:24 am at 12:24 am #2112731
Dorah: Many of your Zeidas and Bubbes, living in the Shtetl, would have felt lucky to have a separate bedroom for their six boys from their six girls. Quite a few of your ancestors slept in the small kitchen or dining room. Are you suggesting your zeidas birth was an error?
At least they did have bread, salt and water. Soda they didn’t have and chicken was very infrequent, too. So you surely cannot complain they weren’t fed. (Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here today.)August 7, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2112730
Dofi: Many of these Roshei Yeshiva hold by the p’sak that Shabbos (which is a m’doraysa) ends according to Rabbeinu Tam’s zman. Yet, a number of talmidim end at the earlier zman. Yet, the R”Y don’t “bar them” as a result. So there’s no reason to think you have any basis to assert that they’d bar them for what you say that they would.
How many Roshei Yeshivos can you name right now, in your next comment, that are opposed to 18 year old bochorim getting married? If you provide no names, as we both know you cannot legitimately provide any, we have our answer and can safely assume you to be incorrect.August 7, 2022 8:42 am at 8:42 am #2112741
@Avram in MD
Don’t throw at me the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan nonsense. I was clear the homes were paid off in 5-7 years.
What is typical? When I bought my first house 50 years ago, conventional mortgages were 20 years. Car loans were 3 years. Today I see mortgages at 15, 30 and 40 years, car loans offered at 6 and 7 years.
I financed the house purchases for my children, that was not with loans with interest loaded up front like a bank mortgage. I simply paid for the houses from available funds and the children made payments to reimburse me. I forego the interest I might have made on the money. The money was loaned by Mrs. CTL and myself to each couple. That kept the implied interest from falling under the gift tax limits.
Does the CTL Law firm pay well? We have pay packages in line with mid sized firms in the metro NYC area. Our children and in-laws are employees, not partners. They will not become partners in the firm until my official retirement and becoming ‘of counsel’
As to why I just don’t say no: I find all interruptions of minyan by those seeking money abhorrent. I am there to daven. Ask me in the hallway before minyan starts or in the coffee room after minyan ends, BUT never approach me while I daven. B”H I can afford to give Tzedaka if asked. I never go to a weekday minyan without cash in my pocket to dispense as needed/requested. During Covid, when there were limits on inside gatherings we did not have these interruptions.
“I think what you are doing is absolutely wonderful. I just don’t understand why you’re looking down at other families who are also helping support their children.”
I don’t look down at other families who are also helping to support their children. They are not supporting their children when they have their hands out asking OTHERS to support their children.
Instead of spending hours and gasoline traveling to ask strangers for money to marry off your child, work another job. You may live in an area where a man could hit 4-5 shuls in an hour, but if he shows up in my small town shul and has a 30 minute drive to the next minyan, he isn’t using his time wisely and the cost with $4.50 gallon gas is prohibitive.
BTW>>>>in addition to my Justice of the Peace offer which includes the bottle and kichel, now that Covid is in abeyance, Mrs. CTL and I are again making our gardens and outsize Chupah (a 12’x20’wisteria covered Pergola) available for weddings for those who need a suitable venue at no charge. It is one one Mrs. CTL’s greatest joys to host a wedding, BTW>> we have an extensive collection of family wedding gowns, mother and mother in law of the Kallah gowns and family formal wear that is available to borrow as well. Mrs. CTL’s private gemach.
Our home was used for a filming a movie back in 2010 and we have appropriate dressing rooms with hair/makeup station for the kallah as well.
If we can help bring joy to the Chason/Kallah by providing these things, it also brings us joy. It is not just about handing over cash.
“August 7, 2022 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #2112796
When the Chatan was 18, how old was the kalah? 12? 14? From the biological point of view, this would maximize number of children better than having a 18yo chatan. Obviously we don’t do that, that means we value other factors in the marriage not just number of offspring.August 7, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2112813
You’re comparing ending Shabbos earlier than Rabbeinu Tam, which has a source, with what you say is a strict mandate to marry at 18 even nowadays, no exceptions? You just made my point, 18 isn’t the standard in the Yeshiva world. It wasn’t in the Lithuanian yeshivos either.
You claim to live in Meah Shearim part of the year yet your posts indicate that you know nothing about living in Israel. You claim to have three wives yet your comments show that you know nothing about marriage. You make pronouncements about when bachurim should marry but it’s obvious that you know nothing about yeshivos.
editedAugust 8, 2022 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #2113200
“Your reading of my post was that the Tana in the Mishna “made up” the 18 yo age for kiddushin w/o any basis.”
I mean “made up” based on his own personal observations, opinions, and conclusions, as opposed to a mesorah he received.
“There had to be some rationale for 18yo (versus 17 yo or 19 yo)……it is an age level where he believed that a young man was READY to assume the responsibilities for marriage and presumably, his conclusion was informed by his own experience based on what he knew at the time.”
This is exactly what I mean when I said you hold the tanna (Yehuda ben Teima) made it up based on his own observations of his own time. Which, though he was a wise rabbi, we can disregard to our detriment, CV”S, because “times have changed.” No, in Pirkei Avos and the rest of the Mishna, the tannaim are passing down the mesorah that they received from their teachers. To reduce this to empiricism is devastating, because it closes the door to proper understanding of the Torah and cuts us off from the chain that links us to Har Sinai.
Also, the very next line in the mishna disproves your assertion that the main should already have his parnassa before marriage and children – as it says the pursuit (of parnassa) is at age 20, two years after the age of marriage.August 8, 2022 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2113215
“Don’t throw at me the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan nonsense. I was clear the homes were paid off in 5-7 years.”
What I said is absolutely relevant. Around here, a “starter” property such as a 1 bed, 1 bath apartment in a suburban-located high rise, sells for around $150,000. If your kids paid you back in ~6 years, that means theoretically they managed to shell out around $25,000 per year to you. That amount is more than half of my gross income when I started my career out of grad school, and had I been paying that, I would not have been able to afford food, utilities, gas, etc. for my family. Hence I said the CTL firm must pay well, and how nice for the kids to have a job lined up for them post graduation. It’s more likely, however, that they repaid the loan to you in ~6 years by selling the house you bought for them and using the proceeds to pay you back – but you wrote that they upsized, which means they had to have considerable equity in the house in order to scrounge the down payment on the 4 bed 2.5 bath single family home. Some of this equity probably came from increased home value, but a big part of it came from the fact that you bought the property for them outright, so 100% of what they paid back to you became their equity. The reason I brought in the bank loan “nonsense” is that for us poor pitiable peons, we can’t build equity that fast because we had to get a big mortgage (and sometimes pay PMI) because daddy can’t just spring for a whole house.
“What is typical? When I bought my first house 50 years ago”
Don’t throw at me the 50 years ago nonsense. My home was built in 1959, and it’s value increased more than 16-fold between the time it was built and when I bought it from the bank as a run-down foreclosure “as is” in the nadir of the late 2000s financial crisis. Property is vastly more expensive now than it was 50 years ago even accounting for changes in dollar value and incomes, and housing costs are a significantly bigger fraction of a household budget than it used to be.
“They are not supporting their children when they have their hands out asking OTHERS to support their children.”
Remind me to use this line the next time a co-worker comes in toting girl scout cookies.
“but if he shows up in my small town shul and has a 30 minute drive to the next minyan, he isn’t using his time wisely and the cost with $4.50 gallon gas is prohibitive.”
How many “schnorrers” are you really getting prowling around your isolated CT shul interrupting your davening? And in my experience, it’s not usually the parents coming collecting for their kids’ weddings, the collectors are trying to help a yesoma, or another type of unfortunate situation.
“It is one one Mrs. CTL’s greatest joys to host a wedding”
I’m very happy to hear that she is B”H well enough to help host weddings! May both you and she have continued strength and good health.August 8, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2113218
Avram > tannaim are passing down the mesorah
Avrah, how do you explain Bava Basra 21 that explicitly describes the trial and error process that Tannaim (or earlier) used to come up with a working educational system?
Maybe we can agree that yes they had a mesorah of what the goals are; that one should try; and one should not be shy of rejecting what does not work; and respect empirical research
In general, note that some of the classical science was rejecting empirical approach in favor of nice-looking theories. There are a number of places where T’Ch are more empirical than Greeks. I read a paper about it but can’t recall the source right now.August 8, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2113222
Maybe a machlokes between Avram and CTLawyer may be explained by their surroundings. Avram gets more in-town poshute shnorrers who are trying to help their offspring. Ctlawyer may be getting more organized ones that travel between towns having lists of shuls, wealthy people, with netflix-type reviews from the previous visitors. The latter may either belong to organizations or be not-fully-vetted types.
netflix: a friend with a local business pointed to me that once he gave a visitor more than usual amount, and the next week visitor insisted on exactly the increased amount.August 8, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2113224
> homeowners typically pay out $100,000-$200,000 in interest, and much of the interest is paid early in the life of the loan, which slows building the equity
I think this is bad math. It does not matter in a long-term, when you pay just interest or principal. There is cost of capital that you pay as interest and you are paying it regardless. You are only losing when buying/selling often due to closing and related costs. So, it is often a good idea to buy house early in marriage. In olden times, Rambam recommended buying house before marriage, but in our times, you got to be ready that the bridge will not like the neighborhood, or the view from the windows, so you’ll need to move anyways.August 9, 2022 11:16 am at 11:16 am #2113454
“how do you explain Bava Basra 21 that explicitly describes the trial and error process that Tannaim (or earlier) used to come up with a working educational system?”
That is a very different case. Pirkei Avos are proverbs disseminated by the great links in the chain of Torah transmission over multiple generations. It literally represents the wisdom of our mesora. The gemara in Bava Basra is describing a series of takanos that the sages made in response to a specific situation – the deterioration of Torah transmission to the young during the Second Temple period. It was not that nobody ever knew how to teach children before and the sages in the Second Temple had to go figure it out. Our mesora was אב מלמדו תורה, as it says in krias shema: and you shall teach them to your children. This stopped working due to yeridas hadoros and the stressors of foreign occupation, and Rav Yehuda (via Rav) credits Yehoshua ben Gamla for making the takana that saved Torah from being forgotten by the Jewish people. Note that the gemara is clear about what the problem was, and why the sages were enacting each takana. By Pirkei Avos, GH is imposing her own reasons for the statement that appeal to her own values system.August 9, 2022 11:16 am at 11:16 am #2113456
Re: poshut in-town schnorrers vs organized netflix gangs… A man came to the door of Rav so-and-so collecting tzedaka for a kallah. “Get a job!” yelled the rav, and the man slumped away, head hung in shame, and left the beis medrash and got a job, and everyone praised the rav for his awesomeness … said no gedolim story ever.August 9, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2113501
“I think this is bad math. It does not matter in a long-term, when you pay just interest or principal. There is cost of capital that you pay as interest and you are paying it regardless.”
I think this is bad following the argument. We’re not talking long term repayment of a bank loan with interest in a vacuum. CTLAWYER specifically said that his children paid him back for the houses he bought and/or flipped them for larger houses in 5-7 years, which is short term.
Let’s say Billy got a bank mortgage of $120,000 at 3.25% interest for his starter property, and Bob got $120,000 from his father as a zero-interest loan. And they pay the same, so Billy pays $522.25 a month in P&I, while Bob pays $522.25 a month to dad as just P. After 5 years, Billy has paid not quite $13,000 into the principal of his loan, while Bob has paid over $31,000 towards the principal. Who’s got more purchasing power to flip his house for a bigger one? Add to that the fact that Bob’s dad gave him a job right out of school and let him live rent-free with his wife in an apartment for a number of years, whereas Billy had to find his own job and pay rent, and you can see that CTLAWYER’s help is pretty substantial.August 9, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2113500commonsaychelParticipant
This whole halacha angle of this is absurd, anyone who said berchas hashacher knows that hachnosas kallah is one of the things in aylu derorim sheh ain lehem shiurAugust 9, 2022 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2113593
@Avram in MD
The average associate salary in a mid sized metro NYC firm such as CTL is about 100K
So, two working associates earning 200K could afford to pay $25,000 yr for housing. In our area a 1BR apt goes for more than that in rental.
No they didn’t upsize by selling their starter homes, they rent them out. It’s the start of their individual retirement/real estate portfolios.
They have a nice profit sharing plan at work (since none are partners in the firm), they also get a piece of all work/billings they bring in (not unusual in this area).
I don’t know what field you are in, but they were not “just out of grad school,” but had passed the Bar exam and held professional licenses.
Those taking the MA Bar Exam, as I did decades ago, also automatically are Real Estate Brokers and this brings in extra income should they operate in Newton or Cape Cod offices.
Our home was built in 1803. It was a wreck when Mrs. CTL and I bought it for $62,000 32years ago. Lots of renovation and additions have occurred, much of the labor done by us. When she was younger and healthy, Mrs. CTL could hang and tape sheet rock with the best of them. My father taught me carpentry, and I can draft, use CAD and do basic electrical as well as paint.
We paid for it as we went and could afford it, waiting until we could add each new amenity or space.
Since Covid, the number of schnorrers coming to minyan is down. Before that we would get a carload or two 3 or 4 mornings each week. They would travel as a team on a planned route.
As I said, catch me in the hall before davening or in the coffee room afterwards, but don’t interrupt my davening to ask for money.
Hosting does not mean physical participation. Mrs. CTL is confined to our MBR suite for the past year and a half, but she can look out at the gardens and observe and a chasunah. Our eldest daughter pinch hits and manages the affair as well as allows access to gowns, etc.
This coming Sunday, we will host the first non-family chasunah in our gardens since before Covid struck. Mrs. CTL is so looking forward to observing and listening. The officiants are coming from NY, so I will sign the license as a JPAugust 9, 2022 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2113691
Avram, re:educational system. Note that Bava Basra directly relates to the age of schooling. At least one of the methods tried during that period was to start at teen ages (and the result was that they did not listen to parents). So, they were not following Pirkei Avot. Maybe not surprising – avot misha is either by Yehuda b’ Tema or Shmuel HaKatan, both late tannaim who seemingly lived after the school experiments.
I accept a possibility, as you say, that avot advice may be normative and BM2 period was an exceptional period. But so are other periods, especially current one. Modernity uprooted so much and created so many opportunities – including our capability to measure results. So, I would say Bava Basra experimental approach is so relevant.
Also, Ketubot 50 discusses ages and seems to suggest that 6 and then 10 or even 12 are _earliest_ ages to teach, that is, one should not force a younger kid. This is discussed in Usha, so it is post-BM2 when things got even worse …August 9, 2022 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2113693
> “Get a job!” yelled the rav,
I actually observed the Rav always calmly getting a thick pile of money out of his table and giving to them, while I was hesitating (in deserving cases, he might announce who it is and why).
I then asked whether to give in suspicious cases. He answered “give a dollar”. So, I don’t need to wonder any more how is a Rav in possession of such think pile of funds – these are all single dollars prepared for such cases.
So, the halakha seems to be – do not over-indulge, but do not offend either.August 9, 2022 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2113694
as I understand old-days halakha, baaley tzedokah were responsible for checking out the recipients. So, this mishna may presume common practice (and seychel!).
Maybe, there is more leeway if you give your own money. Still, a more detailed reference will be needed to make a decision.August 9, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2113697
Please review the Mishna in Peah. Hachnosas kallah is not one of the things that has no shiur; in davening it’s listed in the second half. As we know, all tzedaka most certainly does have a maximum shiur, of 20%.August 10, 2022 12:48 am at 12:48 am #2113723
Dofi: What is the punishment for someone who violated the Halacha by giving more than 20%?August 10, 2022 8:01 am at 8:01 am #2113764
Dofi, great argument. Ujm, punishment is right in the Mishna – poverty and inability to give tzedokaAugust 10, 2022 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2113846
A core value in charitable giving is to provide what you can to a truly needy individual subject to two basic limitations.
1. Give within your own means w/o increasing risk to your family or denying them basic needs.
2. Determine within the constraints of time, situational context and privacy, whether the person(s) to whom you are giving have done what they can to improve their own status before turning to others for support. h
This is common sense and doesn’t require consultation with others. Where you cannot take the time to make such inquiries, give a pro forma dollar bill and move on.August 10, 2022 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #2113895
“Mrs. CTL is so looking forward to observing and listening. The officiants are coming from NY, so I will sign the license as a JP”
May it be a joyous event, and may your wife have a refuah shleima.August 10, 2022 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #2113899
” the methods tried during that period was to start at teen ages (and the result was that they did not listen to parents). So, they were not following Pirkei Avot.”
I think the reason they started teenagers in the second takana listed was not because they were experimenting with the best age to start learning Torah – they knew it should start at a younger age – but rather because the schools were set up “pelech upelech”, one in each larger district (comprised of many smaller districts/towns) as opposed to one in each town. Therefore it wouldn’t have been safe for a young child to travel a long distance to get to his district school.
Another possible way to look at it – perhaps the takanos weren’t trial and error, but rather progressive responses to a deteriorating situation. The first takana bringing students to Yerushalayim – perhaps they were learning Torah with their fathers but increasing numbers needed the kedushah of the city to get to the higher levels of learning that previous generations attained. But then growing numbers of fathers weren’t even able to bring their sons to the level needed to attend in Yerushalayim, so they set up the district schools for teenagers to learn “gemara” after presumably learning the alef beis, chumash, and some mishnayos at home But the boys did not have the proper discipline to accept rebuke from a new teacher, so finally Yehoshua ben Gamla decreed to put teachers in each town so young children could attend safely and be exposed to teachers outside of home?August 10, 2022 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2113917
You are a trustee fór the poor and should treat their money at least as careful as yours, maybe more. Shmuel’s father would keep money hidden in 3 layers, 2 of his and the middle of yotomim, protecting them on both sides – from genavim and from water.
And it is easy to spend their money more efficient than your own, as there’s so much need … If you are buying house for yourself, you are limited to a neighborhood and your family members preferences. If you are looking to buy a house for poor people, you can invest where you can find a good property. If ny is overpriced, buy in Lakewood. If poor in Lakewood are getting free government food, buy food for poor in Florida. If you meet a person looking for help with a wedding, but looks suspicious, go to a gemach and find a worthy recipient. A possible argument against would be that Hashem sends you a mitzvah and you should do that rather than looking for a better one. So a need in front of you should have preference over slightly higher need in another place, as halakha saysAugust 10, 2022 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2113973
“A possible argument against would be that Hashem sends you a mitzvah and you should do that rather than looking for a better one…”
Sadly, you have no assurance that some guy who shows up at your door or at the beis medrash dressed in fakempt yeshivish lvush carrying a frayed letter laminated in plastic signed by some rebbelah you may never have heard of is the personification of a mitzvah sent your way by the Ebeshter. Always do your diligence and only offer funds if you have confirmed the legitimacy of the recipient (unless you simply offer a dollar bill and send him on his way) .August 11, 2022 12:00 am at 12:00 am #2114053
We have halakha that your local poor come first with concentric cirlces of increase of “local”, with EY adding priority. Many people say that their place of birth and yeshiva are their “locals”. But, this is of course, presuming have some credibility. I don’t use levush to jusge people either way – nor presuming that they must be tzadikkim if they dress like some T’Ch or judging them to be presumptuous for daring to dress like the Rov. But you can usually see middos by how people talk and act.
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