The Real Problem

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  • #1876383
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Som,
    Do you agree that this is not a major issue for our community? About the transgender employee for the religious institution. Scenario one. Competent janitor. A lot of the janitors in yeshivos today, are odd characters. One yeshiva used do have a janitor that was a former priest who had jail time for murder! Scenario two. Competent maggid shuir. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. If all our mosdos would do serious background checks for all employees, we would avoid these issues. And some other ones.

    #1876494
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    The issue at stake is the complete abandonment of the moral code. The specific aveira that we are discussing is the very thing that initiated the Mabul, the literal destruction of the world. The Mabul’s origins are bluntly described in the Midrash Rabbah. When gender and moral norms – things that are very clearly addressed in the Torah – become warped, the very moorings of society become undone. Don’t take my word for it, just look at the Torah. The Mabul, as mentioned; you previously mentioned Sodom – by Lot, the Sodomim wanted to abuse the malachim. To’eiva is, plain and simple, one of the few things that seems to cause HKBH to act with force against the world. That is the concern I am raising: Going down this road will seemingly lead to some very bad outcomes for society. Since we live in this society, we will experience whatever consequences occur and we should not expect them to be enjoyable.

    #1876538
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @someone, hate to break it to you, but this a ruling of a secular jurisprudence system, they are not paskining halachah, they are very separate and distinct. Frankly I doubt if Judge Sotomayor or Roberts ever hear of the Malbim and rightfully could not care less what his opinion is.
    If you have a dispute with a yid that belong is bais din, and frankly I get sick when I see two yidden sue in civil court, in the case of Bostock he was not Jewish and nor were the elected officials of Clayton County.

    My guess is about 2/3rds of the male flight attendants are gay therefore I should stop flying or just not be hyper focused on other peoples sexuality.
    I am a Chasidisher Yingerman who works outside the daled amos of Monsey, I have worked with Gays, Lesbians, Bi and Trans and found them to be competent employees who just do the job and go home.

    #1876557
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    To’eiva is, plain and simple, one of the few things that seems to cause HKBH to act with force against the world. That is the concern I am raising: Going down this road will seemingly lead to some very bad outcomes for society. Since we live in this society, we will experience whatever consequences occur and we should not expect them to be enjoyable.

    So, it’s your argument that my failure to yell at my gay co-workers is causing the destruction of the world?

    (Mind you, I always knew the world was a worse place with me in it, but now I have even more basis for it.)

    The Wolf

    #1876582
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    You gents don’t seem to grasp the nature of the problem. It doesn’t matter if we’re discussing a secular, goyish court or a Yid in his daily life. There is a Creator, Who set up this world according to the rules that He established. These rules apply to all of His creations, according to the particulars of their nature. This is the only real consideration. That said, He has made it crystal clear that to’eivah is a hideous abomination, for which a man, at least, merits the death penalty. If you allow the tolerance in Western society to numb your awareness of the moral seriousness of this act, and of the moral damage that it wreaks in the Creation, then you won’t appreciate the fact that Hashem is observing what is happening in His creation at all times and deciding if it is to His liking. If you accept that Hashem has established a moral code in the universe, then you will realize that deviation from that moral code will bring consequences. If you don’t accept it, then it’s not clear why you’re frequenting a website called ‘the yeshiva world’.

    It’s not a complex formula, which is a hint that it’s true – Hashem didn’t make things so complex that we couldn’t or wouldn’t grasp it; He kept it simple and even told us what the story is in the Torah. In this case, there is enormous risk in the allowing of to’eiva to flourish.

    #1876717
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @someone, Hashem did not appoint us to be the world morality police, maybe its because I have more exposure to the outside world that I understand birchas hascharch when I say asher boucher bonu me kol hoahamim,
    Our job is to lead moral lives and not worry about yinnim. The Aybisher has his chesbonis and he does not need any self appointed help, let Him worry about the man wearing a dress and renting me a car or the librarian who give me a book and live with an other woman.

    #1876738
    Joseph
    Participant

    CS: Yes we are supposed to be the morality police. Our butei dinim are supposed to enforce, with capital punishment, observance of the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach. And they must judge our own, as well, with punishments.

    #1876729
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    CS, we’re not the moral police, we’re responsible to live morally.

    #1876767
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    A million percent. If I could add, I did not know about these people until adolescence. It is weird to hear ten a year-old in cheder having ‘frum’ opinions about these things. I do not think it is good for our communal morality.

    #1876762
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    I know of no source that we are supposed to enforce the Sheva Mitzvos. If we would be running the government, then we would be required to uphold whatever is the social contract over the non-jewish poulation also.

    #1876781
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: If a non-Jew in Eretz Yisroel, during the times of the Sanhedrin, violated a Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, he would face capital punishment by Beis Din.

    #1876787
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Joseph, if that’s what you think you have some major issues with reality.
    @ Someone, Exactly we need to live morals not with worry who the flight attendant lives with.

    Edited

    #1876799
    History Buff
    Participant

    Many people feel strongly that others should live very moral lives. I say concentrate on yourself. We are in America and that is the best you can do.

    #1876951
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    Source please. The Mishna discusses one who murders without witnesses. This is a case non ritualistic corporal punishment. Any court of 23 could enact it as a deterrent. Why would the Sanhedrin resort to the Noahide system when they could use this option?

    #1876971
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: That Mishna is talking about Yehudim not nochrim. The former has 613 commandments, only a tiny number that carries capital punishment. The latter has 7 commandments, all of which carry an automatic capital punishment, if violated, with the standards of proof necessary for conviction much more relaxed than the former.

    Don’t confuse the former with the latter.

    #1876995
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    It should be clear at this point that we need both groups of people: Those who can’t bear living alongside gay people and those who have no problem with it.

    The ones who can’t bear it help give the impression that Jews are devout to our Bible, which allows us to retain our religious identity, and the ones who don’t have a problem with it help us not get persecuted for our personal beliefs, by showing we are with it and accepting of others, thereby giving the rest of us the opportunity to enjoy the religious freedom we currently have.

    In conclusion, to those in both camps: Just don’t be a jerk about it.

    #1877014
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    Two different concepts of the death penalty. The symbolic ‘Four Deaths of the Court’. And, the social contract such as the murderer without witnesses. The first needs Sanhedrin to be active in the hewed chamber. The second does not. There is zero obligation on Jews to enforce any commandments of non-Jews. The only way it could happen is if the litigant was disturbing the social order. Since there exists a law for a Jew that is a threat to the State, there is no reason to use the Noahide court system. (Assuming there ever was one.)

    #1877029
    Joseph
    Participant

    1. What “murderer without witnesses” case are you referring to?

    If there’s no witnesses, why are you assuming the accused is even guilty of murder altogether?

    2. Who do you think enforced non-Jews living in Eretz Yisroel during the times of the Sanhedrin with complying with the law (the 7 obligations are part their laws)?

    If a non-Jew worshipped idolatry in Jerusalem, do you imagine that the Sanhedrin (when they were in FULL control with no outside power [i.e. the Romans]) would turn a blind cheek?

    #1877050
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    1. Mishna in Sanhedrin (9: 5) we discussed it above. #1876951
    1a Was not sufficiently warned.
    2. Nobody. What was a threat to the state was dealt with by the state.
    2a Idolatry in Jerusalem is a major crime against the Sanhedrin controlled rulers. They would deal with like any government. Nobody ever suggested that the Chashmonaim where acting as a Beis Din killing the Yevanim for transgressing the Sheva Mitzvos.

    #1877093
    Joseph
    Participant

    n0m: Sanhedrin 9:5 is dealing with a repeat offender and/or the punishment you’re referencing is optional for the beis din to mete out at its discretion.

    The Noachide Laws apply even to a first-time offender and the capital punishment is automatic and non-discretionary.

    #1877096
    Joseph
    Participant

    Additionally, ALL 7 mitzvos bnei noach carry capital punishment. Even the “minor” ones i.e. eating a live animal such as crab, shrimp; stealing $5, etc.

    #1877210
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    As far as I understand there is zero obligation on Jews to enforce the Noahide Commandments. [See the Ramban on Vayishlach.] As such, it is just a social contract matter.Which is no less a matter than a murderer who can be released on a technicality. [Your quote is the first part of the Mishna. I am referencing the second part.]

    #1879095
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I Just flew out on a short business trip and guess what, the flight attendant was a gay man, I know because I was seated near the galley and he was talking about his boyfriend to the other flight attendants.
    The person who took my order coffee shop in the airport was a trans.
    and guess what? I survived and so will you

    #1879099
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Nobody cares if you survived. The point is to retain the Torahs view of this lifestyle. Why you argue with the Torah is beyond me.

    #1879103
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @syag, no the topic of this forum was Bostock v Clayton County and the supreme court ruling, not the torahdiker stand on gays

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