January 15, 2023 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #21565441Participant
Do Communal standards apply to the rich? Often the hamon am go along with the rules. But then when a rich person does something different, everyone turns the other way. When a not rich person does the same thing, the family is blacklisted from shiduchim, gets in trouble in yeshiva, etc.January 15, 2023 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #2156566LostsparkParticipant
Two sets of different standards for the rich and the rest of us. I’ve seen this personally with communities bending over backwards to accommodate.
You are only worth something to the kehilla if you have something to offer, otherwise you are a waste of time.January 15, 2023 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2156567AviraDeArahParticipant
There’s a lot of injustice in the world.
But Hashem runs the world, and not a single person can be hurt or helped without it being decreed by Him.
In shomayim, it’s olam hepech re’isi – the world is on its head. Those who looked powerful and strong here, are worthless there, and the meek, simply, humble Jews who were abused by goyim and their own brethren will be on top.
“va’anavim yirshu aretz,” tehilim says…the humble will inherit the world. And it’s them who will have “rav shalom” – not the powerful ones.
however chazal say to honor ashirim, wealthy people, because when someone has money, there’s a chazakah (with a LOT of exceptions) that he is loved by Hashem.January 15, 2023 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2156569LostsparkParticipant
It’s also funny to note the rich boys aren’t ever written off as “ADHD” losses in the yeshivos butbyet the poor boys are all the time.
I’ve seen boys kicked out for minor infractions that come from humble economic backgrounds, while rich boys that act like complete brats are sheltered and tutored personally by the entire staff.
It’s the American way of life rubbing off on us.January 15, 2023 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2156576ujmParticipant
This is new? Its been like this for a thousand years. It isn’t unique to us, either.January 15, 2023 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2156578
To be blunt, organizations can not afford to blacklist or denigrate their benefactors.
Sometimes putting on a lavish affair is not a matter of showing off or going above community standards, but a means of employing many more waiters, bartenders, cooks, florists, musicians, photographers and rental company employees than the proscribed affair.January 15, 2023 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #2156583☕️coffee addictParticipant
Money talksJanuary 15, 2023 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #2156592anonymous JewParticipant
Because money always talks. You’re surprised?January 15, 2023 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2156603
not sure what the issue is, but maybe other members of the community should be allowed to do something “different” as long as it is not bad or harmful. Maybe low self-esteem does not allow you to do what you think is the right thing for you?January 15, 2023 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #2156632commonsaychelParticipant
This is a verbatim quote of the OP
“I see a lot of bashing in YWN CR of other communities and Jewish institutions without fully understanding the full picture of the demographics within said communities and institutions. What works for Lakewood or Brooklyn isn’t necessarily helpful or realistic for other communities. What are ways we can bridge the gap and have mutual respect as frum Jews?January 15, 2023 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2156633
CTLawyer right but the difference is the rabbis won’t admonish a wealthy person when making an over the top event but will preach to others not to.January 15, 2023 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2156635yaakov doeParticipant
Can anyone enlighten me as to what community standards I can violate if I become rich?January 16, 2023 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2156661SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
Around 3,000 years ago, Shlomoh Melech Yisrael taught:
Mishlei, chapter 14, verse 20:
“THE POOR MAN IS HATED EVEN BY HIS FRIENDS,
BUT THOSE WHO LOVE THE RICH ARE MANY.”January 16, 2023 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2156674
Gemora lauds a Rav who did not differentiate between rich and poor kids …January 16, 2023 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2156700
You are correct that the rabbis won’t admonish the rich person who puts in the over the top affair.
#1 you don’t bite the hand that feeds you
#2 there may have been a discussion of all the additional work and money being pumped into the community by this affair and the rabbis agree and understand that this is an economic stimulus that is better for those hired/contracted in term of self esteem than donating the additional cost to charity and having the same people helped without working
#3 the ones being admonished may being going into debt to put on the affair, or partaking in charity distributions such as tuition assistance. The wealthy person is paying in full and subsidizing those who cannot afford to do so.
A CTL grandson recently got engaged. The Rosh Yeshiva called him to his office and admonished him because the Kallah was given quite a large diamond that was X times the standard they have set. The grandson explained that he and his parents did not spend a single dollar for the stone. His Bubbe had died in Chodesh Elul, she had approved the choice of girl and it was one of her stones being given. The Rosh Yeshiva accepted that the stone was indeed a manifestation of Mrs. CTL’s blessing of the coming marriage. He did suggest to my grandson that he find a way to quietly mention to his closest chevrah that his Bubbe had bequeathed the engagement stone for this match to show her love and approval and kibud av v’aym in this case extended to his newly deceased grandparent and overrode the Yeshiva Standard.
While the stone is large, the chasunah will be a simple affair as his parent will still be in the 11 month mourning period.
BTW, he is not going to law school, he will pursue IT as he decided in consultation with me and the family members of the firm we needed our own IT person to also be in house expert on cybersecurity.January 16, 2023 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2156716
CS your point?January 16, 2023 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2156803SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
Mr. Always_Ask_Questions said:
“Gemora lauds a Rav who did not differentiate between rich and poor kids”
Can anyone please give us the exact mesechta & page that says this?
If this is a Midrash, then please give us the exact place in the Midrash?January 16, 2023 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2156780
And CTL making simchas wasn’t the example I was getting at. Though I do think that if a wealthy person makes a party where the scene is not fitting for Jews than such person should be admonished. e.g. wild dj parties playing goyish music or lack of tznius. A bar mitzvah and wedding shouldn’t be a club scene.January 16, 2023 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2156924
I thought it is in Nedorim, but could not find so far, sorry. Here are a couple related ones:
Nedarim 81 – pay attention to poor children as Torah comes from them
Nedarim 40 – R Akiva visiting a sick student not visited by anyone and saved him as, apparently, people paid attention to him otherwise (was he poor? AAQ)January 16, 2023 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #2156929
Since you were not specific about which community standards are being violated, I replied with something I am familiar with.
There are communities of Jews who have set dollar limits on simchas which limits families to cookie cutter packages at a few halls. That’s a standard I don’t agree with.
I would never tolerate a family member misbehaving in Yeshiva and being excused because Zaidy writes a big check every year.January 17, 2023 12:07 am at 12:07 am #2156956GadolhadorahParticipant
One of the more egregious examples were the ways in which some shuls allocated kovods based on the $$ after the s’henadar in the m’sheberach. A poishete yid with a yahrtzeit might be fortunate to even get an alyiah, and might have to “settle” for hagbah/gallilah while a more affluent (but in many cases not an especially ehrliche) yid was assured of achron, achron chaviv.January 17, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2156990
The examples you post of a bigger honor for a larger donation may be offensive, BUT is a common community standard.
The community has decided that honors are in effect purchased. When that occurs they are no longer honors.
This is a community standard that goes back centuries, in the words of Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof singing ‘If I were a rich man’ wealth would gain him a seat by the eastern wall in the Anatevka shul.
When a large shul sells holiday seats, those in the fixed pews of the main sanctuary are likely to cost more than the folding chairs set up in the social hall.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.