The Rov forgot (or missed zman) to sell the chometz on erev pessach

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  • #1719027

    The Rov had an emergency on erev Pessach just before selling the chometz (medical episode e.g stroke/heart attack, life-threatening injury in a car accident, sudden death in the family or congregant etc).

    This could easily happen!

    During the crisis, he was disabled or too preoccupied with the emergency that it resulted in the chometz was never sold to the goy during the limited zman available to make the sale!

    What is the status of all the chometz that was never sold?

    What is the liability of Rov for failing in his shlichus? (In dinei Torah and/or l’havdil, civil damages)

    Does he need to refund the money given to him (as a gift/tip while signing up for mechiras chometz)?

    Does the Rov need to pay for all the chometz that became ossur (or can he say “haray shelcha l’fanecha)?

    Such a situation must have happened somewhere throughout the generations!

    Is this situation a concern?

    Should a G-d Fearing Jew be machmir to make a secondary Rov as a shliach to sell my chometz – just in case? (Like appointing a back-up Kohen Gadol for Yom Kippur, in case the first becomes disqualified).

    #1719185

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is he a Shomer Chinom or a Shomer Sachor?

    Or not a Shomer at all.

    #1719198

    He is a shliach – an agent.

    He is given a mission, authorization.

    He does not have any possessions of another, just the authority to sell it.

    I think people need to have a “back up” Rov, in case the first messes up.

    #1719211

    Meno
    Participant

    It makes more sense for the Rov himself to have a backup. If you’re really concerned, ask your Rov if he has a backup. If not then choose a different Rov.

    #1719210

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Chometz she’ovar olov hapesach is a kenas, so in circumstances where a person did what he was supposed to do Chazal did not punish him.

    The Noda Biyhuda says if someone’s chometz was stolen before Pesach and then it was recovered after Pesach, he can use it because he did nothing to be punished for. He says when the thief says “harei sheloch lefonecho” it means “go ahead and use it”.

    #1719218

    Milhouse, you are so smart! But let’s think deeper. Do I have a chiyuv to worry that maybe the rov will mess up on the mechira. Similar to a Kohen Gadol that we prepare a back up for his avoda on Yom Kippur?

    That makes it different than a ganov, which was outside my control. Here I appointed a rov, and should have realized that “life” happens, and maybe I am required to appoint a second rov, just in case?!

    #1719219

    Meno – the achrayus is on ME, not the rov. he is a shaliach. I must make sure the mission is successful.

    #1719227

    Milhouse, the N.B. speaks of an oynes (theft), not a p’shi’ah. Is making only one rov a shliach to sell chometz, a p’shi’ah?

    #1719230

    The sugya at play: “shema mes” vs “shema yamus” (maybe he dies vs maybe he will die).

    #1719316

    Does the rov need to at least return the $18? It was given in conjunction to him actually selling the chometz!

    #1719375

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I asked my LOR and just as I thought there is always a backup.

    #1719385

    laskern – can the LOR simply make another shliach?! If you davka want HIM to be the shaliach because HE is a possek and knows choshen mishpat hilchos kinyonim for a goy (on metaltelin and karka : places rented )?! True shliach ossay shaliach – but not always. Not by “millei” (words – as here) and not when the appointment is specific (as here sometimes). So what gives the LOR the “right” to appoint a backup?! Moreso, what authority does the back up have if he was never appointed as the agent to sell?

    I am makpid to appoint a second rov – isn’t that far better?!

    #1719396

    Meno
    Participant

    The shtar that I signed gave the Rov explicit permission to appoint another shaliach.

    Try selling your car to someone after already selling it to someone else, just in case the first person backs out. Let me know how that works out.

    #1719401

    The shtar says “whatever chometz is in my possession” – if it was already sold, then there is none, what’s the problem with that?! It isn’t a mechira on a specifically described chometz!

    #1719402

    Meno – that assumes the rov is capable to appoint another. He might not be capable if he has stroke, heart attack, dies, in a crisis…

    #1719406

    Meno
    Participant

    So make sure your Rov has a backup.

    Many Rabbonim ask you to give an estimate of how much chometz you have and specify where it is located (in addition to any other chometz you have)

    #1719409

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, why’d you need to sign a shtar? Appointing the Rov as your shliach to sell your chometz requires nothing more than making a simple kinyan (i.e. picking up an object.)

    #1719424

    Meno
    Participant

    My Rov doesn’t trust me

    #1719432

    Joseph, there is no need at all to make a kinyan when you appoint a shaliach! What are you being koneh?!

    #1719447

    Joseph
    Participant

    I don’t either. But your kinyan still has halachic validity.

    #1719456

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “What is the status of all the chometz that was never sold?”

    Remains muttar, as this is an onus gamar.

    ” Do I have a chiyuv to worry that maybe the rov will mess up on the mechira. Similar to a Kohen Gadol that we prepare a back up for his avoda on Yom Kippur?”

    No

    #1719473

    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,
    He wouldn’t agree to be my shaliach unless I signed a shtar, because he doesn’t trust me

    #1719477

    Joseph, the appointment of rov can be done by phone or email, no need for a kinyan at all!

    #1719474

    Onus gamur?! It is a peshiya not to take realistic precautions!

    Chazel say: “shema yomus – chayshinon” (we are concerned and consider the possibility that he may die), so if one does not take precautions, he is a po’shay’ah.

    #1719482

    rck43
    Participant

    The standard shtar for mechiras chometz establishes the Rav as your shlyach to sell chometz. If the Rav was simply an unpaid shliyach, then Rav would not be liable for the chometz. However, most Rabbonim in the US are paid a salary and part of their contract includes the responsibility to sell the shul’s chometz every year. In that case, the Rav would be a “paid shliyach” and would be liable for the cost of any unsold chometz.

    #1719484

    The rov is likely an onus gamur, but the seller who appointed him is a poshaya for not planning a back up, just in case.

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