The shidduch process; chassidish & litvish , its working & yet

Excellent points, Meir G.

the world-chassidish and litvish go much harder on bochurim
when you red a girl you dont speak about how she acts in school, and what her IQ is (obviously you speak about the minimal, but…) as long as she can cook, she’s healthy physically and emotionally- thats what matters.
by a bochur- the whole thing is his learning his learning his learning- which at the end of the day, by many that isnt whats gonna be whats going to help him after his chasuna

I’m a stickler for good English in these posts, but MeirG was quite understandable. His points are well thought-out, but I think he went a bit light-handed on the Litvish. The shidduch system in the Litvishe Veldt is based on a simple equation: A girl’s money buys Talmudic scholarship or Yichus. The best learning boys will hold out for the most money. The meyuchasim will hold out for the most money. The monied can pick one or the other and sometimes manage to hit the jackpot and land both.

This equation has stood the test of time and is in no danger of being modified. But until it is, the un-monied girl with no yichus will suffer.

Rational: How is the unmomeyed Litvish girls suffering more than the unmoneyed Chasidish girls?

Rational –
There are plenty of A- and B bochurim who don’t expect money, maybe a bit of financial support for 5 years.
Plenty of poor girls are getting married. As long as they have their head on straight and don’t expect more than they can get. I’m not saying that it’s easy for them, and obviously the rich have it easier, but it’s not like the non moneyed are up against a wall

A single girl can go to Uman for Rosh Hashanah and take her pick. There are plenty of marriage age men who are interested in meeting a sincere girl. There are litvish, chasdish, and modern orthodox men to choose from there. Intelligent and good looking bachelors! With good midos! Very spiritual, too!

These discussions get a bit silly. Commenters make all sorts of generalizations and propose various inane ideas. And it boils down to bashert and hishtadlus.

But let’s examine one of the greatest decoys of all time, as it does impact the shidduch scene. The myth of the learning boy. Yes, it’s a fantasy. The scholarly prowess of a boy has a zero predictive factor in how he will be as a husband or father. One might be able to successfully determine how vast of a student the boy is, but we have never devised a reliable method for assessing the midos – which is the true determinant of successful marriage.

So I am essentially trashing the variants of how many times to date. And the bulk of information that gets discovered before the shidduch results in a meeting/date tends to be superficial, and considers areas of info that are trivial, at best. But we now have leaders, roshei yeshivos, rabbonim, and others who deliver us these broad strokes of genius of how many times to date, how much to disclose, and criteria to seek in order to approve. Yet, none of them can suggest ways to do discovery of one’s true midos.

I have listened to some of the talks given publicly to facilitate shidduchim. The disappointment is huge. The speakers purport to know so much on the subject. A recent broadcast was probably pleasant to some listeners. I was waiting for someone to say something smart, and no one gave me something to satisfy that desire. But that’s what we show for the experts.

This is a daring thing to say, but here goes. If we stopped pushing the myth of the learning boy, and made kollel a resource for those who were truly gifted in learning, the scene would change drastically. But that’s my fantasy.

@rational, et al. You said the following: <b>The best learning boys will hold out for the most money. The meyuchasim will hold out for the most money. The monied can pick one or the other and sometimes manage to hit the jackpot and land both.</b>
my question is this. What is the meaning of the word BASHERT? Perhaps what you are saying is one of the reasons there are so many divorces going on. Nobody believes in bashert anymore. Its all about the benjamins. As fare as the best learning boys, I wish I had $1 for every time I heard the sentence “He is the best boy in BMG”. Is there a 2nd best? a 3rd best?
Perhaps its time to take a step back and look for whats really important. Midos, Derech Eretz, etc. Having recently been involved in helping find someone a shidduch, I was utterly amazed at how many young men and women in their 20s, that are divorced. Many with children. Very sad.

@always – I dont know how it is today, but when last I asked, there is no testing at all at BMG or other kollelot. And we have all heard that there are quite a few young men there who learn nothing or very little. I have spoke to a couple of shadchanim who said that mothers have told them this: “My son has no business being in BMG, but thats the only way to make a shidduch”. WRONG!! Whats wrong with a young man that wants to support his family? I’d bet there are plenty of girls who would want a working guy but are afraid to admit it because “menchen velen reden”.
Anyway, the main point is Derech Eretz comes first. To me, if someone has no derech eretz, I dont care if he knows the whole shas; its meaningless. Even if you are the BEST boy in BMG, you still need to respect your wife, parents, etc.

In litvish chedarim, mesivtos, and yeshivos they tell each and every boy he can be a talmid chochom. The result is many boys believe they are talmidei chachomim (admitting otherwise would mean they are failures) and they therefore hold out for the best girls even though they are hardly the best guys.

hi
i just figured out how to use this CR
I just wanted to reply to UJM about chabad- that NO, in chabad the interest is nothing to do with who is a talmid chochom
(although there are many girls who wouldnt mind a husband a ben torah)
the top bochurim are those who their yiras shomayim is 100%, and are willing to go on shlichus

Participant, get any of the books by R Avraham Twersky, he writes a a lot about low self-esteem

participant, I am not qualified to discuss this. I found R Twersky a good source that connects psychology with Torah attitudes. I suggest google for Twersky self esteem, and also buy or order any of his books. As he says “I wrote same books 50 times”, not 50 books, so order any 🙂

here are a couple of quotes:
Your feelings of self-respect are independent of others. You do not allow others to control you, but you do not feel the need to control others. You look at life and it’s difficulties as challenges and opportunities for personal growth. You are commanded by G-d to strive, not necessarily to succeed. A person should recognize that that he has intrinsic value and worth and is a competent and capable individual.

Cheshbon Hanefesh, which is self-criticism, can be beneficial for you when you think of ways to improve. The Torah gives intrinsic meaning to all life regardless what he can or has achieved. The Torah commands each person to try, and try again, but not to believe that success is totally contingent on his particular behavior and effort. When this belief is in place, a person will not experience anger or depression even if he fails. Nowhere is a Jew commanded to succeed, but rather to act according to the commandments of the Torah. The person acts and G-d decides which path history will take.

Our sages mentioned the subject of self-esteem and ways to correct this flaw in character, in many of the Holy Books. The one solution helpful to everybody is, support and encouragement. King Solomon said, ” When you have worry in your heart, speak to somebody”. Rabbi Elemelech from L’znsk says in the “zetel katan”, a person should find a friend who he can trust and speak about his faults and get support from him. A proven method to achieving a positive self-image is to acknowledge and share your anxious feelings with others.

Self-esteem support groups, provides support and encouragement. A group will help you recognize your potential, skills, talents and abilities and help you realize that you’re not the only one with this problem.

The purpose of working the 12 steps of self-esteem is much the same as that of working the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous; namely, to free ourselves of a pathologic dependency and to get support.

Participant,
Not being an expert here, it is the same as not underestimating a price of a diamond. You will either sell it too low, not polish it right; or not buy it when you could. If you do not know your own value, you will not use your talents appropriately; you will not improve them; etc.

Again, I suggest going thru works such R Twersky. I really do not have enough confidence

One practical suggestion is to get involved in some competitive endeavors, such as scrabble, chess, checkers, spelling bee, SAT, LSAT, running … – if you challenge yourself and then compare your performance with others, you will see better both your strengths and witnesses. Caveat: once, as a youngster, I challenged a much older and extremely accomplished world-renowned person on a minor issue, and he suddenly opened up with a long tirade that despite his obvious achievements, it is not just “you, young man” – “everybody always disagree with me and I have to prove it every time …”. So, maybe, self-esteemed is not fully curable by achievement – but it is worth trying.