December 18, 2020 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1929798
BH i am happily married , & we wish it on all .. yet things seem more complex & difficult even for “normal” people , on the one side so many shidduchim are happening daily and many many to people WITHOUT gelt, family, connections, looks , yichus, marks… & at the same time for many, things aren’t moving. we know of many woman shadchan groups who sincerely spent hours… reviewed resumes and rented offices…. trying to make shidduchim with minimal homeruns.
yet i noticed that the chassidishe seem to have it easier and i did a little research into some of the differences IN THE PROCESS that may be contributing factors ( not to say that the chassidish dont have their share of problems)
in short aside from ” BASHERT” what else? does shema yekadmenu acher still exist?
i numbered it w points so when u post it easier to follow
1. Shiduchim are kosheh & always was ,as refrenced by chazal…
2. Supply vs. demand if 50% of girls want the same 10% of boys ( girls chinuch was matzliach in sheefos and hashkafa even if they don’t fully comprehend the ramifications..
3. Shidduchim is humbling and there is a learning curve which takes its course .. beginning what I want, and think I can get till more realistic expectations and therefore willing to consider a wider range
4. Cultural sense of urgency as seen by chassidsh culture , a litvish bochur may postpone a date because its elul zman & a chssidish is making a lechaim on erev yomtov, or before boy goes back to e”y
5. The more independent & intellectual the harder to match, compare a square to an octagon
6. Age gap seems to have some credibility as a partial contributor
7. Galus = hisgabrus hataavah shallow retzonos and focus on minor nuances & gashmius
8. Mental health & horror stories have contributed to a much better awareness & labeling of weakness so people more hesitant to jump
9. chassidish bochurim yeshiva system -at about age 20 the train stops and u need to get off there is almost no where to learn or hide so you are in shul every shabbos and on the radar ( the downside to this is that if you miss your stop things derail unfairly)
much more but what do u say?December 18, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1929833
Excellent points, Meir G.December 18, 2020 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1929849
Meir, can you repeat your post in English, please? For the life of me, I cannot understand what the heck you’re yammering about. Who do you define as “NORMAL” people? (Thats just 1 question)
Hows about he’ll try for better English and you’ll try for more mentschlich? -29December 19, 2020 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1929939heiliger yideleParticipant
the world-chassidish and litvish go much harder on bochurim
when you red a girl you dont speak about how she acts in school, and what her IQ is (obviously you speak about the minimal, but…) as long as she can cook, she’s healthy physically and emotionally- thats what matters.
by a bochur- the whole thing is his learning his learning his learning- which at the end of the day, by many that isnt whats gonna be whats going to help him after his chasunaDecember 19, 2020 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1929968
how and who determines the level of someone’s learning?
are you going by quality of institution?
do you differentiate between the ocean and overturning mountains? or is the latter a negative behavior?
is there an SAT-type test that let us evaluate the bochur learning?December 20, 2020 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1930065rationalParticipant
I’m a stickler for good English in these posts, but MeirG was quite understandable. His points are well thought-out, but I think he went a bit light-handed on the Litvish. The shidduch system in the Litvishe Veldt is based on a simple equation: A girl’s money buys Talmudic scholarship or Yichus. The best learning boys will hold out for the most money. The meyuchasim will hold out for the most money. The monied can pick one or the other and sometimes manage to hit the jackpot and land both.
This equation has stood the test of time and is in no danger of being modified. But until it is, the un-monied girl with no yichus will suffer.December 20, 2020 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1930096lakewhutParticipant
There are north of 5k people on Facebook groups alone of people who are in their 30s and 40s who are looking to get married, either they are divorced or never been married. It’s not entirely working.December 20, 2020 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1930121
Rational: How is the unmomeyed Litvish girls suffering more than the unmoneyed Chasidish girls?December 20, 2020 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1930134rationalParticipant
ujm: I don’t know enough about the chassidish shidduch system, so I’d rather not comment on it.December 20, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1930141Yossel PupikParticipant
There are plenty of A- and B bochurim who don’t expect money, maybe a bit of financial support for 5 years.
Plenty of poor girls are getting married. As long as they have their head on straight and don’t expect more than they can get. I’m not saying that it’s easy for them, and obviously the rich have it easier, but it’s not like the non moneyed are up against a wallDecember 20, 2020 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1930145
a couple of points;
the rock- i apologize , i was trying to make a complex subject brief & my comments may have been to cryptic, using some hebrew words & shop talk may have made it difficult to grasp .
RATIONAL- the money question ,is it a maalah? your point is emes & valid yet many bnei torah girls w/o any money are getting married and to learners ( bensonhurst type…) secondly there is a diff in hadracha from gedolim if money is a plus or is it a bad thing. all agree it cost money to live , BH there are many good girls & i am marrying only one so if i have a choice am i better off with one whos family can help or is a girl from a no frills low maintenance type family better off in the long term ( see the nosei kelim in even haezer hanose isha lshem mamon)
lakewhut- all agree not entirely working -the tzaar is great & sometimes when i walk home from tish on friday night i think about all those spending shabbos alone. over shabbos i spoke to 2 shadchanim, both were a little burnt from trying for ” older singles” they felt that the key to getting older singles to commit & say yes was A. a coaching program with a focus on freedom from uncertainty, willingness to leave a comfort zone that there is a leap of faith needed to get married – the kaller family in lakewood has invested some funds lshem mitzva in sucha program . B a speed dating type suggestion so u dont get drained from the process .( the west side has numerous singles who arent getting married w/o the social restrictions of the frum dating scene)December 20, 2020 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1930188reform rabbiParticipant
A single girl can go to Uman for Rosh Hashanah and take her pick. There are plenty of marriage age men who are interested in meeting a sincere girl. There are litvish, chasdish, and modern orthodox men to choose from there. Intelligent and good looking bachelors! With good midos! Very spiritual, too!December 20, 2020 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1930296
rational: The best learning boys will hold out for the most money.
This is indeed an old system, but does it make sense now? We used to have a small number of Talmidei chachamim who were able, and wanted, to learn full time and a small number of very rich people and lots of very poor. Now, we have much larger professional middle class and a high cost of living – who can have comfortable lifestyle by working, but not enough to support several sons-in-law.
what is thenn the motivation of the multitude of learners (except the true top ones), select a life partner based on money, instead of learning how to support themselves. I they are that bright and kodesh, they could work in a profession 2-3 hours a day, it will be enough to modestly support their families.December 20, 2020 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1930303The little I knowParticipant
These discussions get a bit silly. Commenters make all sorts of generalizations and propose various inane ideas. And it boils down to bashert and hishtadlus.
But let’s examine one of the greatest decoys of all time, as it does impact the shidduch scene. The myth of the learning boy. Yes, it’s a fantasy. The scholarly prowess of a boy has a zero predictive factor in how he will be as a husband or father. One might be able to successfully determine how vast of a student the boy is, but we have never devised a reliable method for assessing the midos – which is the true determinant of successful marriage.
So I am essentially trashing the variants of how many times to date. And the bulk of information that gets discovered before the shidduch results in a meeting/date tends to be superficial, and considers areas of info that are trivial, at best. But we now have leaders, roshei yeshivos, rabbonim, and others who deliver us these broad strokes of genius of how many times to date, how much to disclose, and criteria to seek in order to approve. Yet, none of them can suggest ways to do discovery of one’s true midos.
I have listened to some of the talks given publicly to facilitate shidduchim. The disappointment is huge. The speakers purport to know so much on the subject. A recent broadcast was probably pleasant to some listeners. I was waiting for someone to say something smart, and no one gave me something to satisfy that desire. But that’s what we show for the experts.
This is a daring thing to say, but here goes. If we stopped pushing the myth of the learning boy, and made kollel a resource for those who were truly gifted in learning, the scene would change drastically. But that’s my fantasy.December 21, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1930572
a few more points;
UJM- short answer to your question about the unmoneyed girl – no comparison , everyone likes money but for the majority of chssidish engagements money is NOT a deal breaker or a pre- requisite before we even get to first base.
yossel pupik – a bit of help for 5 years some might call that money ( is a bit 1000 a month? )today most couples need help regardless of kollel , college…
always ask…?based on your comment i have a question for you , pick any neighborhood in brooklyn – say flatbush , how many yungeleit living in flatbush are in kollel for more than 5 years? what percent is that of the 20,000 frum famlies kein yirbu ( under 2%) and even LAKEWOOD PAST 5 YEARS KOLLEL is a very small number for yahadus in the U.S. ( E”Y is a diff landscape)
the learning boy is not a myth, its a sheefa of ruchnius in a foreign world of which their is such a shortage not an abundance – ofcourse people need help making the transition to the work world and MIRACOUSLY MOST DO – ITS A TOTAL NES but the klal is that if you are willing to work at the proper time hashem is mazmin you parnassa ( there is a yotzei min hklal as well )December 21, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1930581
@rational, et al. You said the following: <b>The best learning boys will hold out for the most money. The meyuchasim will hold out for the most money. The monied can pick one or the other and sometimes manage to hit the jackpot and land both.</b>
my question is this. What is the meaning of the word BASHERT? Perhaps what you are saying is one of the reasons there are so many divorces going on. Nobody believes in bashert anymore. Its all about the benjamins. As fare as the best learning boys, I wish I had $1 for every time I heard the sentence “He is the best boy in BMG”. Is there a 2nd best? a 3rd best?
Perhaps its time to take a step back and look for whats really important. Midos, Derech Eretz, etc. Having recently been involved in helping find someone a shidduch, I was utterly amazed at how many young men and women in their 20s, that are divorced. Many with children. Very sad.December 22, 2020 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1931074
The Rock “He is the best boy in BMG”. Is there a 2nd best? a 3rd best?
I do agree that midos might be more important, but just with that reference:
Is there a class rank? Test scores?
With learning being a central life goal for bochurim and a reference for shidduchim,
are we able to measure anything about that activity?December 22, 2020 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1931087
@always – I dont know how it is today, but when last I asked, there is no testing at all at BMG or other kollelot. And we have all heard that there are quite a few young men there who learn nothing or very little. I have spoke to a couple of shadchanim who said that mothers have told them this: “My son has no business being in BMG, but thats the only way to make a shidduch”. WRONG!! Whats wrong with a young man that wants to support his family? I’d bet there are plenty of girls who would want a working guy but are afraid to admit it because “menchen velen reden”.
Anyway, the main point is Derech Eretz comes first. To me, if someone has no derech eretz, I dont care if he knows the whole shas; its meaningless. Even if you are the BEST boy in BMG, you still need to respect your wife, parents, etc.December 23, 2020 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1931138
@TheRock thats the only way to make a shidduch ….the main point is Derech Eretz comes first.
As someone said: the problem is with Beis Yaakovs, they are not producing enough rich girls …
As usual in social problems, where do you start in this circle – in education, probably? teach both boys and girls derech eretz, in both (related) meanings – midos and work.
I had a nice conversation with a teacher at some point: she was telling me to focus on selecting a right seminary [with some condescending to my potential lack of Torah values – “if it is a money issue, I can help you find a right place”, as if I was on a stipend and she paid full tuition, instead of other way around]; and I asked her to maybe introduce a topic on mitzvah of kibud av ve’em, not being happy how girls propose chumrot for their mother instead of helping her … We mutually looked at each other – as if the other side is talking about something inappropriate
So, we made a controlled experiment: it took about 3 months of separating the kid from the school, for middos to improve.December 23, 2020 5:39 am at 5:39 am #19312245ishParticipant
In litvish chedarim, mesivtos, and yeshivos they tell each and every boy he can be a talmid chochom. The result is many boys believe they are talmidei chachomim (admitting otherwise would mean they are failures) and they therefore hold out for the best girls even though they are hardly the best guys.December 23, 2020 10:00 am at 10:00 am #1931254
5ish: In Chasidish and Lubavitch yeshivos they make clear to the boys that not all of them can become Talmidei Chachomim?
What about in the girls schools and Beis Yaakovs? Do they make sure the girls know that not all can become top girls and marry top guys?December 23, 2020 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1931293Justwondering613Participant
i just figured out how to use this CR
I just wanted to reply to UJM about chabad- that NO, in chabad the interest is nothing to do with who is a talmid chochom
(although there are many girls who wouldnt mind a husband a ben torah)
the top bochurim are those who their yiras shomayim is 100%, and are willing to go on shlichusDecember 23, 2020 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1931398
I heard from someone chashuv that one of the biggest problems our times have is low self esteem. when I heard it I didn’t understand it at all –I still don’t. maybe someone can explain it– but slowly its sinking into me. and I think it explains6 a trend I’ve noticed for a while now. maybe I’m imagining it or maybe I’m just clueless in psychology (I am) but this is what I’ve noticed.
growing up not so long ago (I’m almost 21) the ‘old men’ -50s 60s, higher, all had a certain feeling of accomplishment to them. it didn’t matter workers learners rabbis right wing or left. they all portrayed a sense of wholesomeness of confidence of satisfaction etc. and2 most of all people who had no doubt or qualms as to their role in life. it’s something I’m not noticing in young people.
again maybe I’m wrong. could be I’m older now, could be I’m judging people at a younger age or any other reasons , but I think I’m right anyway. and it’s at the root of all lack of middos all doing what people expect of me, etc.
addendum: I tink its also at the root of why the younger generation is less likely to have a makom kavua to Daven . I can’t explain what I think the correlation is. its just a feeling I have.December 23, 2020 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1931432
Participant, get any of the books by R Avraham Twersky, he writes a a lot about low self-esteemDecember 27, 2020 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1932394
is what I said correct?December 27, 2020 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1932451
participant, I am not qualified to discuss this. I found R Twersky a good source that connects psychology with Torah attitudes. I suggest google for Twersky self esteem, and also buy or order any of his books. As he says “I wrote same books 50 times”, not 50 books, so order any 🙂
here are a couple of quotes:
Your feelings of self-respect are independent of others. You do not allow others to control you, but you do not feel the need to control others. You look at life and it’s difficulties as challenges and opportunities for personal growth. You are commanded by G-d to strive, not necessarily to succeed. A person should recognize that that he has intrinsic value and worth and is a competent and capable individual.
Cheshbon Hanefesh, which is self-criticism, can be beneficial for you when you think of ways to improve. The Torah gives intrinsic meaning to all life regardless what he can or has achieved. The Torah commands each person to try, and try again, but not to believe that success is totally contingent on his particular behavior and effort. When this belief is in place, a person will not experience anger or depression even if he fails. Nowhere is a Jew commanded to succeed, but rather to act according to the commandments of the Torah. The person acts and G-d decides which path history will take.
Our sages mentioned the subject of self-esteem and ways to correct this flaw in character, in many of the Holy Books. The one solution helpful to everybody is, support and encouragement. King Solomon said, ” When you have worry in your heart, speak to somebody”. Rabbi Elemelech from L’znsk says in the “zetel katan”, a person should find a friend who he can trust and speak about his faults and get support from him. A proven method to achieving a positive self-image is to acknowledge and share your anxious feelings with others.
Self-esteem support groups, provides support and encouragement. A group will help you recognize your potential, skills, talents and abilities and help you realize that you’re not the only one with this problem.
The purpose of working the 12 steps of self-esteem is much the same as that of working the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous; namely, to free ourselves of a pathologic dependency and to get support.December 28, 2020 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1932806
2 more questions
why is low self esteem so terrible?
is my sociological explanation 4 shiduchim probable?December 29, 2020 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1933316
Not being an expert here, it is the same as not underestimating a price of a diamond. You will either sell it too low, not polish it right; or not buy it when you could. If you do not know your own value, you will not use your talents appropriately; you will not improve them; etc.
Again, I suggest going thru works such R Twersky. I really do not have enough confidence
One practical suggestion is to get involved in some competitive endeavors, such as scrabble, chess, checkers, spelling bee, SAT, LSAT, running … – if you challenge yourself and then compare your performance with others, you will see better both your strengths and witnesses. Caveat: once, as a youngster, I challenged a much older and extremely accomplished world-renowned person on a minor issue, and he suddenly opened up with a long tirade that despite his obvious achievements, it is not just “you, young man” – “everybody always disagree with me and I have to prove it every time …”. So, maybe, self-esteemed is not fully curable by achievement – but it is worth trying.
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