January 2, 2012 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #601465yitzchokmParticipant
The the events of the past few weeks took shape, people “out of the loop” did not understand how people defending themselves from the media by calling them biased may have a point. Wolf and others kept writing snide remarks about how this is all a dream.
The following is an opinion article, written and published by the influential Haaretz newspaper in Israel.
Orthodox Judaism treats women like filthy little things
If a man and a woman are drowning in a river, first they’ll save the man, ‘who is obligated to perform more commandments,’ whereas a woman’s ‘wisdom is only in the spindle.’ In fact, ‘words of Torah should be burned rather than being given to women.
By Yossi Sarid
If you would like to know the source from which your brothers derive their brazen behavior, go over to the study hall and open a page of Talmud. It’s true that the Torah has 70 faces, but the trend of these faces is clear: The source of the pollution is in halakha (Jewish law ) itself. What is happening in Beit Shemesh and its satellites is not “contrary to halakha,” it is mandated by halakha. And the rest will be told to the grandmothers, daughters and granddaughters.
Anyone ignoramus knows that the Torah’s “ways are ways of pleasantness,” that “the honor of a king’s daughter is within,” and that “proper behavior comes before the Torah,” but it’s worth knowing more. It’s worth knowing that a woman is unfit to be a judge, and is also unfit to give testimony. She is unfit for any public position with authority. “Thou shalt appoint a king over thee” – a king and not a queen.
A daughter, commanded the sages, must not be taught Torah, because “the mind of woman is not suited to be taught, but [only] to words of nonsense.” Women are light-minded and have little knowledge.
And if a man and a woman are drowning in a river, first they’ll save the man, “who is obligated to perform more commandments,” whereas a woman’s “wisdom is only in the spindle.” In fact, “words of Torah should be burned rather than being given to women.”
A man must say three blessings every day during morning prayers: He thanks God “that He didn’t make me a gentile, that He didn’t make me a woman, that He didn’t make me an ignoramus.” And it’s not proper to speak to a woman too much, since “all her conversation is nothing but words of adultery,” and whoever talks to her too much “causes evil to himself and will end up inheriting hell.” And let’s not even talk about the fate of someone “who looks even at a woman’s little finger.”
The extremists who spit at women, who call themselves Sikarikim, learned their lesson 101 times and learned it well: A husband would do well not to let his wife go outside, into the street, and should restrict her outings “to once or twice a month, as necessary, since a woman has no beauty except by sitting in the corner of her house.”
There’s more, I choose not to copy it. Read and weep.January 3, 2012 12:44 am at 12:44 am #841412apushatayidParticipant
Neo-Nazi and other jew haters have used these “proofs” against the legitimacy of the Torah for decades. I believe Martin Luther used the “brachos” argument to “prove” Jews hated non Jews.
That a Jew recycled these arguments is sad, but not surprising. Has this Sarid fellow ever been exposed to a yid or yiddishkeit that exemplified diracheha darchei noam in a meaningful way?January 3, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #841413yitayningwutParticipant
Ignore them.January 3, 2012 1:03 am at 1:03 am #841414always runs with scissors fastParticipant
The problemm I have with all of this, is why go after orthodox jews for our tradition in oppressing women, (if it can even be called that), as the arabs are the professionals at it, even burying baby girls live as they’d rather have a boy baby.
Or the commandment in their holy book KOran to beat a wife, etc.
I don’t see how we’re any worse. LEave us alone!January 3, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #841416HealthParticipant
ARWSF – What many don’t understand is that Torah is the truth and only the Torah is true – nothing else in this world. A Jew in name only can’t possibly fathom the truth. If something seems unfair or unequal -it’s not the Torah fault, it’s our lack of understanding. Women were created with different purposes than man and that is why we do things and they do different things.
Unfortunately, only a self-hating worm would seek not to just bash all Charedim like a lot of Freye are doing, but this low-life decides it’s a ripe opportunity to attack the Torah itself. His soul will be treated the same as the worst people that have ever stood up in Klal Yisroel. V’shem Rishoyim Yirkav! Yeetamu Chatoyim Min Haaretz! (And not just his newspaper.)January 3, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #841417mddMember
What he quoted is all true. Just this rasha does not want to humble himself and see the truth.January 3, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #841418Sam2Participant
The one quote that I hate when the anti-religious feminists (and the anti-feminist religious) bring up is “A woman’s wisdom is only the spindle.” That is taken grossly out of context and anyone who actually saw the Gemara inside would realize what it means.January 3, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #841419Guter yidParticipant
He’s twisting the meanings of the chazal, but that’s not the point.
The point is, this provocative hateful article against the torah and torah observers is a painful example of the deep hatred sitting and breeding in the hearts of a big portion of the secular population in holy land, and is being preached by the media, and this explains very much whats happening in EY, and what the charedi population is facing day after day.January 3, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #841420gavra_at_workParticipant
So now the question:
Why do the secular hate the Charadim?
An Am Haaretz will always hate the Talmid Chacham (IIRC, brought in the Gemorah). But why? And how can the Charadim stop causing the secular to hate them?January 3, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #841421zahavasdadParticipant
Charedim tend to be very isolationist. They do not mingle with outsiders much. So outsiders dont get much of an opinion of them.
One can say mingling with dati leumi, Chilonim and goyim is bad so positive or neutral exchanges are rare.
They ONLY time non charedim will generally mingle with non charedim is when they are forced and usually under negative circumstances , which makes it worse and unfortunatly does not help.
Would you have a positive view of a group of people who you dont know personally, but have them throw stones at you?
If there was some more mingling the outside world would realize the stone throwers are not the majority and just a bunch of crazy people, which people will accept.January 3, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #841422oomisParticipant
Not throwing stones would be a start. They can be isolationist, I applaud them for trying to keep their ways as pure as they can through not mingling with others. But when they encroach upon people who do not share their hashkafos and worse, ASSAULT them -they have crossed an uncrossable line.January 3, 2012 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #841423ItcheSrulikMember
gavra: The gemara specifically said that the amei ha’aretz did hate the talmidei chachomim during the middle of the tekufas hatannaim. Since the religious/secular political situation was even worse then than now (think much larger zealot factions on both the religious and secular side, secular zealots like Sarid (r”s) throwing stones as well, real sikrikim as opposed to our thankfully tame variety etc) this was no surprise. From the gemara it does not seem like that state is unchangeable. Maybe we can do something about that.
By the way, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for an intemperate remark I made on another thread. I lost my temper because of certain peoples’ actions and statements, but that is no excuse for my own behavior. I’m sorry.January 3, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #841424MDGParticipant
GAW said “An Am Haaretz will always hate the Talmid Chacham (IIRC, brought in the Gemorah)”
That Gemarah (Pesahcim 49b IIRC) says that an Am HaAretz’s hated of Talmidai Chachamin is even greater that the pagan’s hatred of Talmidai Chachamin.
When an Apikoros states his hatred, it’s usually with a much more in depth hatred, looking into all aspects of the frum life for ways to bash it. I see it as a yiddishe kup biting the hand that feeds it. A goyish antisemite usually repeats the same old canard of money, power, etc.January 3, 2012 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #841426adamsParticipant
Sarid has a certain hashkafa, but his points should be answered not just by calling him names.January 3, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #841427000646Participant
Sarid’s words are sickening especially coming from a Jew.
However If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen.
If you start fights and act like crazy people the people you are fighting will do the same.
If you publicly call certain groups of Jews Nazis (which anyone who has ever been to any recent Hafgana in Meah shearim know happens) they will in turn say horrible outrageous things about you.
Don’t act crazy to other people and they won’t act crazy to you, OR
do act crazy just do not pretend you are shocked when the side you are fighting does the same
It’s really that simpleJanuary 4, 2012 2:12 am at 2:12 am #841428always runs with scissors fastParticipant
health – I was very impressed with what you wrote. YOu should be a spokesman for Bitachon in Hashem and the Torah. wow.January 4, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #841429BTGuyParticipant
The Torah, tragically, is so misunderstood.
Many shiurim are based on offering surprising clarifications of ideas and concepts that are such to even to those who learn daily. When casual “readers” of the Torah react to what they read, things can go very wrong.
There is an endorsed site which touches on this fact very well.July 24, 2017 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1324646👑RebYidd23Participant
To be fair while the opinion article is far from a valid representation of Torah, it represents Joseph’s beliefs quite well.July 24, 2017 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1324710NechomahParticipant
I’m wondering what Yossi Sarid thinks about these issues now.July 25, 2017 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1324787Avi KParticipant
Chazal speak about the dangers of a talmid chacham who has bad middot. The Gaon (Even Sheleima 2) goes even further and says that unless a person consciously works hard to change his middot learning will make bad middot worse. This is why Torah is compared to water. It makes everything grow, both flowers and weeds.
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