The Supreme Court
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- This topic has 41 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 10 months ago by charliehall.
June 15, 2020 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1872682
The Supreme Court’s new ruling about the Constitution proves why we need an oral law. They just interpreted it according to its written understanding and not through its intended interpretation. The Chazal gives us this interpretation in the written words of the Torah.June 15, 2020 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1872716☕️coffee addictParticipant
Are you equating Torah from Hkbh to the constitution which was made by בשר ודם, גוים no-lessJune 15, 2020 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1872767
It depends on the weather. The SCOTUS oftentimes invents its own “Oral Law” when it suits the liberal establishment they seek to serve. For example, nothing written in the Constitution remotely says or even implies abortion must be legal. (This is, but, one example of many available.) Nevertheless, when the left-wing “Justices” decided they wanted such a law, despite their not being elected to Congress which is constitutionally empowered to write laws, they simply decreed it by dreaming it up as Oral Law.
Justice Antonin Scalia warned about all this when he insisted upon strict constructionism, ruling based on the Constitution’s original meaning, rather than a so-called notion of an “everchanging Constitution” that allows every leftist judge to rule whatever he wants based on his feelings of what he dreams the Constitution should mean today, not what the authors of the Constitution (and statues, for that matter) intended when writing the laws.June 15, 2020 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1872797PekakParticipant
RebEliezer is a liberal and he prefers to view the constitution in the same way that I view the Torah.June 15, 2020 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1872796
The Rabbenu Bachya in Parashas Ki Siso compares the Oral Law to a father who wrote a letter to his son telling in it to follow certain commands and thge rewards gained by it. He was afraid that it might fall in the wrong hands, so he left out certain conditions that he will pass on orally, Similarly, Hashem gave the interpretations of the letter the written Torah orally.
The Chasam Sofer has a different mashel quoted by his son the Kasav Sofer in Parashas Yisro. A father had multiple children and he has a goldmine that he wanted the youngest child to inherit. He does not want to create jealousy by just giving it to him, so he teaches his youngest child the act of gold mining and then he divides the goldmine equally. Since the others don’t know what to do with it, it automatically falls to the youngest child. The Written Torah is like a goldmine and the Oral Law is the act of gold mining. We get the shown the act of gold mining, so we know how to interpret the Written Law when given to us, which the other nations are missing, so they don’t know how to use it and therefore they are unwilling to accept.June 15, 2020 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1872811
Your conservative judge Gorsuch interpreted it giving rights to toiva. He did not interpreted as intended but as written.
As you see above we have a right to understand what the purpose of the Oral Law is. It also gives us an extended understanding to no end, yagdil Torah vyaadir whereas the written law is fixed.
As a liberal, I don’t think the Constitution was properly interpreted over here. You don’t squeeze into it an interpretation which was not intended by Congress.June 15, 2020 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1872807ubiquitinParticipant
“Justice Antonin Scalia warned about all this when he insisted upon strict constructionism, ruling based on the Constitution’s original meaning”
Scalia was no different. He expanded the definition of “arms” in the second amendment when it suited him (see Heller) He suddenly opposed States rights in Bush V Gore. He expanded free speech to corporations When clearly none of these were the “constitutions’ original meaning”June 15, 2020 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1872833
Absolutely. Alito, dissenting today, made up law from nothing in the Hobby Lobby case, when he gave religious rights to corporations based on the religion of their owners. This overturned hundreds of years of established precedent that a corporation’s identity has nothing to do with that of the owners. This is a far bigger deal than today’s decision which was a narrow one based on the meaning of a statute.
Your point about the Second Amendment is also well taken. The people who improperly claim that it was originally about individual rights to gun ownership are ignorant about 18th century US history. Colonial governors repeatedly interfered with militias in the colonies, as had the British monarchs in Britain itself — in fact the very last time in history that a British monarch vetoed a law passed by parliament was Queen Anne’s veto of the law allowing Scotland to set up a militia in 1708! No less a figure than the late Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote in the 1980s that the Constitution provided no right to own firearms.
But conservatives actually love this kind of judicial activism as long as it suits their own political ends. The trouble it, they get burned when they lose, like today, and get exposed as hypocrites.June 15, 2020 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1872834
Not getting as much notice today was that the Court refused to hear Trump’s challenge to California’s Sanctuary law, under which the State refuses to cooperate with Federal immigration enforcement activities. This is another example of the hypocrisy of conservatives, as the right of states to refuse to have their police agencies commandeered into enforcing federal law has been well respected ever since the Tenth Amendment was passed in the 1790s. But Trump doesn’t care about the Constitution. In this case the Court refused to be Judicial Activists even though the Trump Administration wanted it to be.
Interestingly, there is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly gives the federal government the power to restrict immigration, only to regulate naturalization. The Founding Fathers would never have imagined the racist national origins quota system, but the courts upheld it anyway.June 15, 2020 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #1872846akupermaParticipant
Actually the United States has an “oral law” system. It is very flexible. The ‘Common law”, like Halakah evolves by scholars and judges addressing situations as they change. The Romans had a written system reliant on the boss making rules whenever he felt like. If you tried to reinact living as we did 2000 years ago you would realize how are flexible oral system, like the American common law system, works in our benefit.
If you followed the original text of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, as an example, gun ownership would be dependent on willingness to serve in the militia and report regularly for training (and to fight war, and more often, suppress riots). The clear understanding when the Constitution was adopted was that non-Christians would have minimal rights under state law unless the state wanted them to (by the Jacksonian era, they all had). None of the civil rights that enable American Jews to be comfortably middle class would exist if the Constitution was interpreted as it was in 1789 (of the14th amendment at the time it was adopted).June 16, 2020 6:23 am at 6:23 am #1872957Avi KParticipant
RE, if you are referring to the toeva ruling it had nothing to do with Constitutional Law. It was an interpretation of a law passed by the Congress and signed by POTUS. Justice Gorsuch said that he personally thinks that it is a bad law but he has no choice but to affirm that it says what it says. If you are interested in reading a complete report google “HOW JUDGE GORSUCH JUDGES” on the website of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (which is a conservative organization).
Akuperma, FYI the 14th Amendment was subsequently adopted. The accepted interpretation of the “Due Process” clause is what is called “substantive due process” – certain rights, in particular those in the Bill of Rights, are protected from government interference. The “Equal Protection” clause prevents states form improperly discriminating against classes of citizens. What is proper (e.g. a minimum age for driving) and what is not (e.g. a religious test for public office) is a matter of judge-made law although they look at social norms in their generation (thus Brown vs Board of Education overturned Plessy vs. Ferguson). This actually is a continuation of the English Common Law system, which is analogous (l’havdil) to our responsa literature. This contrasts with the Civil Law system of the Continent where law is strictly defined by codes. In American law schools the main point of study remains the case law system. civil lawJune 17, 2020 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1873355
Not really sure what everyone is talking about. This reading of the law forces people to act normally. Do not discriminate against your employee for things that do not affect your business. And your employee has to act normal, because anything that either gender could be fired for, he/she/it can be fired for too. CJ Roberts is setting up a legal basis for people to be obligated to a human standard, no matter how they self identify.June 17, 2020 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1873421
N0m: I’m glad you agree that if an employee expresses deep racism and xenophobia off-hours, off premises, on his own time on social media and in public, the employee should not penalize him for doing things that don’t impede the employees ability to do his daily job.June 17, 2020 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1873442Avi KParticipant
Joseph, if an employee expresses deep racism and xenophobia off-hours, off premises, on his own time on social media and in public and it becomes to known to fellow employees it could create workplace issues. As people might boycott the business (which they really should not do, but people do many things they should not), This is why rechilut is such a severe sin.June 17, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1873511
reb eliezer-“Your conservative judge Gorsuch interpreted it giving rights to toiva.”
exactly he betrayed the conservatives and sided with the leftist liberals! but you should be happy because your a leftist and he sided with you!!June 17, 2020 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1873516
Avi, people may and do boycott businesses that employ open homosexuals.June 17, 2020 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1873519
nomesorah-” CJ Roberts is setting up a legal basis for people to be obligated to a human standard, no matter how they self identify.”
thats not the supreme courts job their not legislators!! their job is to interpret the law and any reasonable person knows that the 1964 federal law banning employment discrimination based on race/color/religion/gender does not refer to lgbtq
gorsuch is a traitor!!June 17, 2020 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1873538GadolhadorahParticipant
Don’t underestimate how Gorsuch’s opinion, aside from his obvious effort to demonstrate “consistency” in his textual approach to legal interpretation, will also help tee up a future effort to further narrow so-called
Chevron deference”, in terms of how the Courts defer to agency interpretations of statute based on their assumed subject matter “expertise”, where the statute fails to provide detailed guidance on implementation.June 17, 2020 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1873592
Sam1, I am a liberal because I want protection for the Jews as for others but I don’t want an interpretatiion that Congress did not intend as I wrote before.June 17, 2020 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1873876
reb eliezer- “I am a liberal because I want protection for the Jews as for others”
voting in anti Semitic oboma’s vice isn’t going to accomplish that goal of yours! in fact quite the opposite
I don’t want an interpretation that Congress did not intend as I wrote before.”
you side with the conservatives on that!!June 18, 2020 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1873902SchnitzelBigotParticipant
According to Gorsuch’s flawed Office Xmas Party sevarah, if I show up to work wearing blackface and get fired, can I sue them because had I been Black they wouldn’t have cared?June 19, 2020 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1874528
It is definitely not the legislators job to guide the nations culture. It is the job of the clergy (Totally absent.) cultural icons (Make to much money.) and educators (HA!). But I do not get you. You want them to be able to act however they feel like and claim that is their ‘identity’? Why is it an affront to you if they do not get fired?June 19, 2020 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1874546
n0mesorah- where did you get this stupid idea from that i “want them to be able to act however they feel like and claim that is their ‘identity’? Why is it an affront to you if they do not get fired?” if you read my posts i said and proved the opposite!! i dont how you got that idea into your headJune 24, 2020 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1876114
Among the Justices voting in the majority on the 1973 abortion case were Warren Burger and Lewis Powell, whom nobody would call liberals. It was a blow for limited government.June 24, 2020 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1876157Yoel BidenParticipant
In 2004 Ruth Bader Ginsburg was the first Supreme Court Justice blah blah blah………. nobody cares about thisJune 24, 2020 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1876226Someone in MonseyParticipant
It’s odd that somone could think that Gorsuch interpreted the Cvil Rights Act according to its original, textual meaning. The statute in question, written in 1964, refers to discrimination based on sex, which without question refers to biological gender. We cannot view the staute through today’s lens, but through 1964’s. There was no confusion about biological gender 56 years ago. Gorsuch forced the issue. He contended that discrimination based on sexual choice cannot be distinguished from gender – which is a facially ridiculous idea – and thus such discrimination violates the statute. According to Gorsuch, there’s no such thing as morality, apparently, only gender-by-choice.June 25, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1876386
This law puts the obligations of society back on these people. They cannot do whatever they want and claim ‘I identify like this’ or ‘I was made this way’. Anything that a man and a woman would get fired for, they could also be. This should be precedent for many bizarre legal battles that are coming out. A cornerstone of normalcy was finally set down. Be happy about it. I think one day it will overturn same ex marriage.July 9, 2020 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1880892
The Supreme Court ruled 7-2 including Trump’s appointees that the president is not above the law.July 9, 2020 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1880932ubiquitinParticipant
“Justice Antonin Scalia warned about all this when he insisted upon strict constructionism, ruling based on the Constitution’s original meaning, rather than a so-called notion of an “everchanging Constitution” that allows every leftist judge to rule whatever he wants based on his feelings of what he dreams the Constitution should mean today, not what the authors of the Constitution (and statues, for that matter) intended when writing the laws.”
In addition to my above comment it is worth noting that The Supreme court unanimously voted to change what the original intent of the Constitution clearly was , with regard to faithless electors.
This idea that only “leftist judges” ascribe to an ever changing constitution is demonstrably false.July 9, 2020 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1880951
Reb Eliezer, be careful what you wish for. New York has no real interest in Trump’s taxes , other than to force him to do something he was under no legal obligation to do. That’s why I felt he was right to fight against release.. I understand that you dislike Trump, but giving local government the ability to pry into your affairs without cause is something we will all regretJuly 9, 2020 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1880968
There many reasons to see his tax returns, electiion tampering, russian influence and emolumence clause.July 9, 2020 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1881018
Reb Eliezer 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂July 9, 2020 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1881061GadolhadorahParticipant
Listen to the incredibly incoherent briefing today by the Presidents “press secretary” who generally reads from a prepared script no matter what the question. She declared “victory” based on the timing of when the Trump financial data will be released (not until after the election) , misquoted the federalist papers regarding the need to insulate the President from legal process which she calls
“harassment”, accused the Court majority of pandering to the “mob”, and failed to explain how a president who has played over 130 rounds of golf in 3 years (averaging about 4 hours plus travel time) , is “too busy” to respond to legal actions by government prosecutors’.
.July 9, 2020 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1881074🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Wow, GH. You’re really grasping at straws.
And why bring up golfing when you know obama was golfing during times of crisis is a head scratcherJuly 10, 2020 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1881092
Did I miss something? The court ruled that the president is not above the law. Nothing changed for you and me.July 10, 2020 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1881095
Maybe the major parties could require a candidate to release his tax returns as a condition to run. It would have saved the Republicans a lot of trouble.July 10, 2020 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1881100HealthParticipant
nOmesorah -“Maybe the major parties could require a candidate to release his tax returns as a condition to run. It would have saved the Republicans a lot of trouble.”
Why make New laws, when the DemonCrats don’t follow the ones that are already there?
It was illegal for Obama to be the President of the US. But no one, besides a few even cared!July 10, 2020 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1881109
Not a law. Just party policy.
On the birther and other stuff……………………
A lot of people cared. And they cared way too much. By the time the Republicans got down to creating a new political platform, Obama was in his second term.July 10, 2020 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1881145
Nom, I was laughing at the “reasons” given for needing to see his tax returns. Reb Eliezer somehow left off being a covert Mets fan and eating gebrocht on Pesach Sheni. This is the same DA who has bungled important prosecutions ( or wouldn’t prosecute ) and refuses to prosecute looters and the vandals who desecrated St Patricks Cathedral .July 10, 2020 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1881182
The reason is because of an investigation into campaign finance violations. The current probe (state level) involves falsifying business records. I am not sure what you are laughing about. The backstory happened in broad daylight. Hence, Trump’s lawyer’s fifth avenue reference.July 10, 2020 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1881187HealthParticipant
nOmesorah -“A lot of people cared. And they cared way too much. Obama was in his second term.”
That’s exactly My point – they only Care about Politics, namely their Party, not about the Law.
So there’s No point to make something a policy or a Law, when people do what they want anyway.July 15, 2020 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1882606benignumanParticipant
Someone in Monsey,
I don’t think you understood Gorsuch’s opinion correctly. He was treating “sex” in the statute to refer specifically and only to biological sex.
The decisions the Supreme Court makes are usually extremely difficult cases. (The obvious cases do not usually get to them.) Each side is usually represented by very, very good lawyers. If you read each side’s brief, they are extremely persuasive. The idea that a layman can read a couple of news articles about the case and have an educated position on who was right and who was wrong is silly.
In 90+% of SCOTUS cases, I could make a persuasive argument why each side is right. These cases aren’t obvious. They aren’t easy. The Justices are all giants in their field. People should have a little humility.July 20, 2020 12:04 am at 12:04 am #1883897
I agree that in 1964 nobody would have imagined the CRA being interpreted the way Gorsuch did. But he interpreted it the way it was written. In other words no equivalent of an oral Torah. Then he did the same thing in the Oklahoma Indian case. Expect more such radical decisions from Gorsuch.
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