The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!
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- This topic has 2,052 replies, 68 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 11 months ago by Yechi Hamelech.
November 15, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1624252
CS, I wrote this another thread. There is a practical way to improve oneself. It says והנה סןלם מצב ארצה וראשה מגיע השמימה this is compared to a human being who starts up from earth but by elevating himself has the potential to reach the heavens:
The Chasam Sofer gives us a strategy to improve oneself. There is always a conflict between the body and soul. We want to make peace between them as it says בקש שלום through ורדפהו meaning to create a small conflict. Let the soul do something small that the body does not like and allow the body to get used to it and then continue the cycle.November 15, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1624255
“Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:) If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.”
Not sure what you mean. My point was what criteria we use for determining who is a Tzadik. Nothing in my post contradicts that one follows the hora’ah shah of an established leader of the generation.
Me: “The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.”
You: Note that I wrote Torah true yidden. Your rebuttal about the karaim is like me looking to the reform or even other religions.
You missed my point. To use your example. Even though there are many reform jews the number doesn’t matter because they are not Torah True Yidden. Torah true Yidden follow the Torah as it is transmitted by the Chochmai HaDor. Now, WHO the chochmai hador are cannot be determined based on how many adherents they have. My example for this was the Karites who had lots of adherents for quite a while.November 15, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1624257
“All I said was that anyone who doesn’t ACKNOWLEDGE who the Rebbe is will be sorry when it’s too late”
How do you propose someone outside Chabbad should come to do that?November 15, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1624259
CS, Do you have to be a chossid of a rebbe to be able to improve yourself?
I gave you a method to do this. They seem to believe that connetion to a rebbe makes them greater than anyone else, but they should believe the opposite that they are not worthy to be a chassid of the rebbe. Look at the translation I gave on Uncle Ben’s yiddish quote from one of the Rebbes.November 15, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1624306samthenylicParticipant
laskern – Volt maga Asztenba? I explained it already, please tell the MOD to post itNovember 15, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1624328
samthenylic – igen 2 1/2 evig, Julius 9, 1959 jontem Amerikaba – please post this as above.November 15, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1624327
“For now I can refer you to R Aharon Soloveitchik who wrote a letter in response to those who denounced meshichistim ”
Taken out of context
In other statements he had some cold things to say about it
‘ What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable.’
Although they considered him talented and of the potentialNovember 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624528
Np I love your posts. The one to TT I personally find hilarious. Would like it if I could. Anyhow, how bout you tell me what the criteria are for establishing who are the tzadikim?November 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624520ToiParticipant
@Cs- “…And step 3: the ultimate (which sechel didn’t address) everyone, while remaining in their own kreiz, with their own unique minhagim and chumros etc, should unite under the Rebbe/ the Rebbe’s horaos and if this would happen for sure moshiach would be here, no doubt about it….”
This is not “step 3” this is “objective 3”, which just confirms everything I and others have been saying- your ultimate goal is to convert everyone to lubavitch (call it what you want- it’s semantics), not about frumkeit or anything else. ThanksNovember 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624493
CS, My son came home with a joke: Why does the Lubavitcher cross the road? To be mekarev the chicken.November 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624471
Although they considered him talented and of the potential”
Have you looked into it that you confidently make that statement? Because from what I’ve seen its not as you describe. And funny how you just state that as if it’s fact. There is a Sefer bsod siach that documents the quotes etc.November 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624391samthenylicParticipant
laskern – Akkor ismerjuk egymast – the best way is to do like Rabbi Meir with his Rebbi, eat the insides, throw away the peel….November 15, 2018 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1624363
Laskern regarding the chasam sofer its very nice. Tanya perek zayin expresses same idea. Of course you don’t have to be a chossid of the Rebbe to work on yourself. All Torah yidden work on themselves. I was just responding to your question on what the term chossid means when chabad use it. It can mean either or. Two different meanings that hopefully both apply to as many lubavitchers as possible. Ie not just to be a chossid of the Rebbe as in a talmid, but to be known as a chossid, who works on himselfNovember 15, 2018 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1624602☕️coffee addictParticipant
Now, the reason why shluchim are so successful in mekareving others is not because they are such great PR people that they manage to package Yiddishkeit better than non Torah movements.
Lubavitcher is the only “Torah movement “?November 15, 2018 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1624659
It was an understatementNovember 15, 2018 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1624658
samthenylic – I went to Chasan Sofer from 1963-1968. I heard from Rav Shmuel ztz’l that an apple does not fall far from a tree, but in case of a storm wind it does, אמר אל הכהנים בני אהרן ואמרת אליו לנפש לא יטמא בעמיו don’t let a bad apple destroy the whole basket.November 15, 2018 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1624665
“Lubavitcher is the only “Torah movement “?”
No not at all. Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)November 15, 2018 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1624666
Laskern thanks for the humour.November 15, 2018 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1624723Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
I apologize for earlier saying that my post had been deleted by the mods. Although, I would have understood had they done so, it turns out they actually didn’t, so that might have caused some confusion. I think there was just a huge backlog of posts for this thread.
Sechel: Neither I nor Syag nor anyone accused you of defending TT. We accused you of saying that his rhetoric proves familiarity with Chabad, thus proving that Chabadniks do actually talk that way. You have, in fact, restated this claim every time you’ve tried to argue back against us. Just digging the grave even deeper.November 15, 2018 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1624698ZionGateParticipant
Wow, what a thread. I didn’t read every post but there are some hilarious ones and others interesting.
I only want to comment on the Moshiach discussion.
If everything wonderful in the begins to unfold when he comes…. I’m aware if Shmuel’s dictum,but he he agrees that at a point the end of travails, eventual end of sickness, joy, everlasting geulah, etc…. then why in the world should I care who Moshiach is ? Let him be your rebbe, Yankel’s rov, the dayen of Petchetch…. who cares ?? Who even says he has to be a rov/ rebbe? How about Reb Fishele Feish my neighbor who is rumored to prahve Chatzos every night even though he’s no klei kodesh but punches a clock at the cheese factory M-F..
Moshiach is not the end game, it’the beginning of the end og galus and hisgalus Eloikus… Moshiach is a messenger not an Avoda Zarah…
R’ Avrohom, the Gra’s son on his peirush on Tehillim writes that’ll be Eliyahu Hanava that’ll do the kibutz… Radak in Navi writes something similar.
I don’t care if he comes from the dead or living, if he wears a spuddik or kipa srugah, if he eats veggie soup on Shabbas, Sephardi, Ashkenaz, I don’t care…..
Just come already.November 15, 2018 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1624702
“Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)”
I have a different perspective on this point.
After the war most of the Gedolim in E”Y and America where focusing on rebuilding Yeshivos and Beis Yaacovs. This is very much in line with the priorities expressed by ריב”ז when he famously asked for Yavneh and it’s scholars. This was a two pronged project. (1) The establishment of major Torah centers and (2) the establishment of day schools and later kollelim in many “out of town” communities. Their efforts where blessed with tremendous success and today we are all the beneficiaries of their foresight and mesiras nefesh.
I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that the last Lubavitcher Rebbes shlichus initiative had a greater overall impact on Klal Yisroel.
But I digress. I will be happy to address the other question shortly.November 15, 2018 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1624759ZionGateParticipant
….sorry for my typos , was typing from my phone .November 15, 2018 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1624788Sechel HaYasharParticipant
“You have, in fact, restated this claim every time you’ve tried to argue back against us. Just digging the grave even deeper”
You read what you want to read. I think I’ll stop here.
אל תען כסיל כאולתו פן תשוה לו גם אתהNovember 15, 2018 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1624838
Zd welcome! I totally agree with you. Great post.November 15, 2018 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1624845
Rso neville, did you still want a post with further sources regarding who moshiach can come from? Because it looks like this long detour on the thread is coming to an end and I’m only interested in writing it up if you’re interested in seeing it. Or is the reference to R Aharon Soloveitchiks letter enough?November 15, 2018 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1624853
I plan to ask Reb Ahron’s son what his father said/wrote/held tomorrow. IY”H I will report back.November 15, 2018 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1624883
Syag please do. Id love to see thatNovember 15, 2018 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1624876
“Don’t say your Rebbe loves EVERY yid and then list exceptions. If its emes than EVERY means EVERY. If there are exceptions, those words are Sheker.”
“Syag see my post above regarding Ahavas Yisroel “
I did. Sounds like you want to consider it another exception. If EVERY isn’t the Emes (with or without excuses of exceptions) then it’s sheker.
“Other than that, I don’t think about either of them and I definitely don’t talk about them. This is the way of the Rebbe.”
Sounds very loving.November 15, 2018 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1624881
Np: apparently you are unaware that the Frierdiker Rebbe was part of that effort to rebuild Torah in America and he supported all Torah institutions and launched programs for even frum kids. In fact the only known Yeshiva that predated the Frierdiker Rebbe that I am aware of is Torah Vodaas. Many of the TV alumni went on to become the FRs students, and the FR in turn actually gave a check from his own funds even though he was severely in debt himself trying to uphold his moidois, to TV at one point, to avoid its closure due to finances.
That is aside from the fact I disagree that shlichus affects am Yisrael as a whole on a big scale.November 15, 2018 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1624886
Np disregard my last sentence. Agreed that was an urgent focus in the FRs time, and by rereading your post I realized that the last sentence doesn’t applyNovember 15, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1624910
Although I will note np that as Nossi hador the FR didn’t only work on rebuilding Chabad Torah institutions and supporting other Torah institutions, he also reached out to the not frum and created programs for their children as well most notably the public school Released time program still extant today.
Syag let me ask you a question: how do you love a Jew who clearly follows a non Torah path? What does ahavas yisrael mean and not mean?November 16, 2018 7:17 am at 7:17 am #1624927
“how bout you tell me what the criteria are for establishing who are the tzadikim?”
For starters here are some things to look for:
1) He is regarded as a Gadol b’Torah by the Gedolim already established as such. This means that they give serious weight to his opinion in their own Halachic rulings*.
2) His Torah is studied widely in Yeshivos and Kollelim
3) Community Rebbeim (of various communities) turn to this person with there own shailos
As a postscript to point 1, I would point out that things like addressing him with honorary titles, speaking his praises, attending his levaya, being a Rosh Yeshiva in his yeshiva, ect. doesn’t cut it.
I also want to stress that the subject was never “establishing who the Tzadikim are. The discussion was who is a Gadol B’Yisroel. Nevertheless we can be certain that such a person is a Tzadik and if someone would wish to claim otherwise the burden to bring compelling evidence would be on them to substantiate their claim.
One more thing. The above is useful for determining who is a Gadol. As far as determining who is “THE Gadol” even Shmuel HaNavi couldn’t do that without prophecy.November 16, 2018 7:18 am at 7:18 am #1624928
You: Np: apparently you are unaware that the Frierdiker Rebbe was part of that effort to rebuild Torah in America and he supported all Torah institutions and launched programs for even frum kids…
I am well aware that Chabbad had a Yeshiva, Rav Gustman had a position there. What does that have to do with my post?November 16, 2018 7:21 am at 7:21 am #1624948
CS: “This is of course subjective but I am over 15 and haven’t felt anything inappropriate “resonate” neshama wise that is against Torah. Found a cool idea? Maybe. But not something that deeply resonates”
I think you missed the point. How do you know that what you consider “resonating with your neshama” is not yetzer hara? What about all the born again xians for whom oso ha’ish “resonated” with ther souls? What about all those people in love with people with whom they should not have a relationship for numerous reasons who feel the “resonation”? The fact that you believe that what resonates with your neshama is pure does not prove anything.November 16, 2018 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1624949
CS (and maybe others), I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before, but what kind of a proof is it that your rebbe was so great because of so many gedolei Yisrael who said so?
There are many gedolei Yisrael who can claim exactly the same thing. In fact, they can claim far greater numbers because they will include Litvishe gedolim.
Their are two differences that falsely make your claim look better than theirs.
1. For the last decades of his life your rebbe didn’t visit anyone else. People had to come to him. (That’s why Lubavich “hated” PM Shamir, as he alone refused to come to 770 and be part of a lubavich PR photo-op.) Other rebbes and gedolim were visited and went visiting. So they didn’t appear to be so special with everyone davke visiting them.
2. Other rebbes and gedolim didn’t have teams of PR people whose job (either self-commissioned or commissioned by the rebbe’s attendants) was to show the world how everybody meets, greets and praises the lubavicher rebbe. I personally know of quite a few Israeli Rebbes who spend a lot of their valuable time being mechabed other gedolei Yisrael on the latters’ territory for the sake of Shalom and achdus. They don’t just wait for others to come to them and thereby seem to be more special.
As to something else you wrote about the shlichim caring etc, don’t forget, it’s also what makes them prestigious in the lubavich world AND it brings in parnassa. Please note that I wrote something along the lines of knowing many who seem to care sincerely. I stand by that. However, I personally know others who have opened chabad houses in areas that encroach on other chabad houses and who have caused machlokes within chabad. This isn’t lesheim Shamayim, and this does not show that they care about others, even though they may be really nice to their visitors because they have to keep up the numbers. (Opening chabad houses in frum areas and causing problems has already been mentioned by others.)November 16, 2018 7:25 am at 7:25 am #1624951
CS: “everyone, while remaining in their own kreiz, with their own unique minhagim and chumros etc, should unite under the Rebbe/ the Rebbe’s horaos and if this would happen for sure moshiach would be here, no doubt about it….”
I believe that it will delay the coming of Mashiach because he was not fit to be the ultimate leader of Klal Yisrael and many of his views, as I have explained in the past, were warped!
You included me in a reply about who could and who could not be Mashiach. I don’t believe I discussed that point, although I may have tangentially.
Finally (for this post) PLEASE stop using the ridiculous “Nossi Hador” title for your rebbes. The title is meaningless and has no source or basis. If you don’t stop I’ll make up a title for someone, say, “Nimlach al yedei Hashem” and I will point out that since by definition that person is the only one with the title it must be true.
The Lubavicher rebbe is NOT a nassi, neither was his father-in-law, neither were any of his ancestors for the last hundreds of years.November 16, 2018 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1624954
When someone asks you about your attitude about certain gedolim, and your answer
(#1624910) contains a comparison to someone’s attitude about “a Jew who clearly follows
a non-Torah path,” you’re kind of inviting trouble (even if you didn’t mean it that way).November 16, 2018 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1624958
Rav Aharon Feldman has written* that even if it’s not problematic to consider a dead
person to be Moshiach who will return, it cannot be considered sensible to believe
that out of all the niftarim of Klal Yisrael, Moshiach will be the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
*in The Eye of the StormNovember 16, 2018 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1624959
Teikef uMiYa”D MaMo”SH!
What are the acronyms?November 16, 2018 7:27 am at 7:27 am #1624960
(I just realized MMSh could be the Rebbe. Still wondering about MYD.)November 16, 2018 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1624961
(I agree with those who think TomimTihyeh’s a troll, but…)
All I said was that anyone who doesn’t ACKNOWLEDGE
who the Rebbe is will be sorry when it’s too late
Considering that no person perceived as chashuv by the non-Chabad
Orthodox world has ever done so, we’ll be in excellent company.November 16, 2018 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1624952
“In fact the only …”
Making up your own false facts . figures
Furthermore a certain RYNovember 16, 2018 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1624962YeshivishrockstarParticipant
CS, We all know chabad “loves” jews that aren’t frum. It’s whether they love Jews who are frum that concerns us here.
(A chabad shliach once told me “it’s better to be a frei yid who holds the rebbe’s moshiach than a snag who’s frum. CS, do you agree with that? Because, IMHO, that;s EXACTLY how xtianity got started.)November 16, 2018 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1625001
Syag let me ask you a question: how do you love a Jew who clearly follows a non Torah path? What does ahavas yisrael mean and not mean?
Randomex, thank you for asking the obvious.
CS – YOU said that your Rebbe loves EVERY Jew. So here is the question. Yes or No only. Did your Rebbe love Rav Shach and Rav Ahron Kotler? Yes or No. And if you cannot or do not answer YES, than your claim is Sheker, and only there to build an image.
Further, Yes or No, Do YOU love Rav Shach and Rav Kotler, whos name you won’t even utter? Are you willing to admit that all those in Chabad who don’t, are going against the path of your rebbe.
That’s all. This is not part of a larger discussion requiring more sources and references and clarity and rereading old posts. You said EVERY Jew. It is either True or false. Is it true?
or NO?November 16, 2018 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1625009Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
CS, the Freidiker Rebbe’s impact on the renaissance of yiddishkeit in post war America is negligible. Not all building of yiddishkeit involves reaching out to totally frei yidden. The resources and communities we all take for granted in the US were almost all established with the help of the gedolim you guys hate so much. Crown Heights is just one of them, and a comparatively small one at that.November 16, 2018 9:03 am at 9:03 am #1625019TomimTihyehParticipant
Randomex – MiYaD is roshei teivos of the Holy Names of the Rebbe Rashab, the Frierdiker Rebbe, and Moshiach (Menachem shmoi) who, as the seventh generation, must perforce follow them.November 16, 2018 9:03 am at 9:03 am #1625020
Syag I realise I wasnt clear hence the confusion is my fault. Will explain after shabbos iyh. Will get to follow up after a well. I’m happy i can have an honest discussion with fellow frum yidden. Good Shabbos to all!!November 16, 2018 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1625028☕️coffee addictParticipant
(I just realized MMSh could be the Rebbe. Still wondering about MYD.)
At least someone realizes what I’m talking about
One time I was at a “community kinnos “ where a bunch of different rabbanim spoke and as the Lubavitcher finished off my rebbe kept on repeating ממש like he’s waiting for him to say בקרוב בימינו ממש and when the Lubavitcher finished he ended with those words I cracked upNovember 16, 2018 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1625031
“Teikef uMiYa”D MaMo”SH!””
I was actually surprised the mods let that thru. It’s a way of appearing to be praying for moshiach, but really just proclaiming that they ‘know’ who it is. As Ziongate demonstrated above, anyone who REALLY, TRULY and HONESTLY is awaiting Hashem’s Emissary, is not putting in plugs for “their own candidate”, so to speak. If you believe you know who it may be, that is it’s own issue. When crying out that Moshiach should come quickly in our day, that is not a time or place to be advertising your desires. That is a time to tell Hashem to being HIS choice of Moshiach, whomever it may be, because that is what we REALLY should be davening for. Anything else would indicate that 1) perhaps you would not be willing to accept a different choice or 2) you are afraid to put in the plea without the reminder. Such as when a mom promises she will give a treat and you tell her you would like it to be chocolate. Then, when she says she will go fetch the treat, instead of trusting her that she will bring what is truly best, you worry that she may have forgotten what you yourself believe to be best so you call out, “yes mommy, bring the chocolate treat”November 16, 2018 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1625048
Question : That’s all. This is not part of a larger discussion requiring more sources and references and clarity and rereading old posts. You said EVERY Jew. It is either True or false. Is it true?
Response: I realise I wasnt clear hence the confusion is my fault. Will explain after shabbos iyh.
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