- This topic has 2,052 replies, 68 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 12 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Do you ever actually answer questions?
CS – please adress two points:
1) How the Lubavicher Rebbe a=can still be Moshiach even though he is presently dead, when the Rambam says otherwise.
2) Even assuming the Halacha is not like the Rambam, why is the Rebbe the greatest of all possible dead candidates
3) Why there is a chabad obsession to identify their dead Rebbe as Moshiach even though it contradicts all the evidence, no other Jewish group has this obsession, and it makes a chillul Hashem and Chillul Lubiavich for all onlookers, and there is nothing to be gained by it other than perhaps fulfilling a psychological need. It certainly doesn’t bring Moshiach closer.
“Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso. Also, remember Shimshon, about whom it is said that he reigned for 40 years although he only lived as a shofet for 20. Why? Because his influence over the plishtim extended 20 years after his passing, and Torah therefore writes that HE ruled the yidden for all those 40 years. So as long as the Rebbe’s efforts continue, he can still be considered bchezkas Moshiach.”
That’s wonderful, but that isn’t Koveah Halacha. Ma Zaroy BaChayim Af Hu doesn’t mean that the Rebbe is considered physically alive in the sense that if we weren’t continuing his legacy, he couldn’t be Moshiach, but now that we are, he can. Halacha simply doesn’t work that way.
L’shitoseych, why do you feel compelled to believe that the Rebbe is already Chezkas Moshiach? Even before Gimmel Tammuz, by a simple reading of the Rambam, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. If you want to, you can believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach, there’s no reason (and no possible way) to say he was Chezkas Moshiach. For the same price, he was Moshiach Vadai.
CS- assuming what you said is true, is the Rebbe the only one who meets those qualifications?
The gemora forbids us from counting the days towards Moshiach. They give a parable to a father who takes along his son and a guest to go to the market to Leibzig. The son asks right away his father, when are we arriving? The father gets upset at him and scolds him telling him, why are asking me this when we just got on the wagon. After travelling two hours the guest asks the same question and the father answers him another hour. The son gets upset why did you scream at me and you are answering him? Says the father to his son because your question was not appropriate yet. Similarly in the beginning, counting was not appropriate but now at the akavteh demishicha it is.
coffeeaddict, sorry but I don’t know what you are referring to when you are being lubavich’s advocate.
Sorry, CS, but it’s doublespeak. If the buttons were already polished then that’s the end of the game. Hashem doesn’t change the rules; He just changes the situation as it fits the rules.
There are no “phases” of a plan that has been finished. א-ל אמונה ואין עול. He doesn’t cheat c”v.
CS replying to me: ““Interesting how no one has commented on the piece from Sefer Chassidim I posted.” The context isn’t clear. That’s why I haven’t commented”
The context isn’t clear?! Why not? Sefer Chassidim says that if you hear someone saying nevuah about Mashiach in the end he and his followers will be shamed for doing the wrong thing.
That is what he says in short and there is no other context.
CS: “Is the process clear?”
It is no more clearer than it was at the start of your lengthy posts. Again, it’s pure doublespeak.
If the buttons have already been polished then there is NOTHING left to do unless the rules have been changed, and Hashem doesn’t change the rules just so that your rebbe will not appear to be mistaken.
CS: “It seems you missed the point. Or I wasn’t clear.”
Neither. I got the very clear point. Rabbi Heller was clever in asking them to do something that will directly help US Yidden, and he didn’t venture into the 7 mitzvos area at all. Well done!
CS: “The fact this is halacha shows us that we should be looking out to identify such a person and that it is normal and a good thing to do so, ”
The fact that there is a halacha in the Rambam stating who can be Mashiach “shows us that we should be out to identify such is a person”?! Maybe I’m not the biggest talmid chochom around but I fail to see how you come to that conclusion.
CS: “Now the Rebbe fulfilled the conditions for being bchezkas Moshiach”
You’re kidding me, right?” which are to be
1) a king”
He was not a king. I know that lubavichers say “man malki rabbonon” but that is not halocho and is not quoted by the Rambam, so it doesn’t count as kingship.” from Beis Dovid”
There is ZERO proof that he is (ben achar ben) from Beis Dovid, unless you count the fact that since he is Mashiach he must be from Beis Dovid as a proof. (Btw there is also ZERO proof that he is descended even not ben achar ben from Beis Dovid. Please don’t tell me that the Baal Hatanya was descended from the Maharal etc etc because there is no proof from that either. It is a claim that was made much later. It’s possible that I am wrong about this, but you’ll have to show me othewise.)“2)Well versed in Torah and oisek bmitzvos like Dovid his ancestor”
This is not relevant to any argument, but that is not what the Rambam says. He doesn’t say “well-versed” he says “hogeh baTorah” which basically means “learns Torah”. So theoretically Mashiach could be someone who is not a great talmid chochom, as long as he learns. But, as I said, that is irrelevant to our discussion.“3) He coerces the Jewish people to go in Torah’s ways and strengthen (ie fix) its breaches”
How many Yidden did he COERCE to go in Torah’s ways? He encouraged but did NOT coerce. Btw I compliment you on your honesty in translation here because most other lubavichers who use the Rambam as a “proof” mistranslate the word ויכוף so that it doesn’t cause them problems.“4) He fights the wars of Hashem”
He did not. Simple translation is waging war, as we see that in the next sentence the Rambam says that if he is successful and he “is victorious’ over all the nations around him…CS, you’re like old wine getting “better” with age. The longer and more you post the stranger the ideas you come up with.
“Any shliach you ask will tell you that they are only able to do what they do by the koach of the Rebbe”
And this therefore has a halachic basis?! If I claim that my koach of putting on tefilling comes because of something I once saw in a Bugs Bunny cartoon that means that it is a fact and counts in some way halachically?!
CS: “Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso”
And once the meshaleach dies the shliach is no longer considered kemoso. That’s the halacha in regards to all matters of shlichus.
Hasem’s purpose in putting us in this world, is, to quote the TANYA “La’asos lo dira b’tachtonim” , via Mizvos uma’asim tovim! This means NOT working to bring the Geulah, but concentrating on limud haTora, & asiyas hamizva l’shem Hashem, WITHOUT any ulterior motives. “Neeman baal melachtecho leshalem s;char peulosecha” without our forcing the issue. This will only MINIMIZE our dedication of doing mizvos l’shem Hashem, because we will do it for OUR OWN GRATIFICATION. None of the first 5 Chabad Rebbes obsessed about Moshiach so much!
“The fact this is halacha shows us that we should be looking out to identify such a person and that it is normal and a good thing to do so, This has in fact been the case throughout history where various students claimed their teachers were worthy of being Moshiach.”
How so? There are many halachic principals that exist that we do not look to fulfill as they don’t seem to apply, although they might apply.
In fact there were major machlokesim regarding wether we can bring certain karbanos when we started resettling Israel. There are valid halachic reasons to bring some karbanos nowadays (even though they might never have planned on doing it). Should we be looking to bring karbanos? It is halacha, does it show us that we should be looking to deem a karbon fit, because the halachic argument exists, even though it’s a stretch?
CS, you said the fact this is halacha (that halacha explains who can be moshiach) tells us to look for someone who fits the halachic requirements. Do you see that in other areas of halacha (I think I provided a counter, explain why I didn’t if you like)? If not, how do you think “looking” is a valid idea in this area of halacha?“Hasem’s purpose in putting us in this world, is, to quote the TANYA “La’asos lo dira b’tachtonim” , via Mizvos uma’asim tovim! This means NOT working to bring the Geulah, but concentrating on limud haTora, & asiyas hamizva l’shem Hashem, WITHOUT any ulterior motives. “Neeman baal melachtecho leshalem s;char peulosecha” without our forcing the issue. This will only MINIMIZE our dedication of doing mizvos l’shem Hashem, because we will do it for OUR OWN GRATIFICATION. None of the first 5 Chabad Rebbes obsessed about Moshiach so much!”
A little research and understanding the idea of Dirah B’tachtonim will show you that what you just wrote is utter nonsense, I don’t have patience to spell it out, but maybe one of the other Lubavitchers here will be patient enough to unpack what you wrote. Or if I have some time later I’ll try.
SH, Could be according to the Tanya this is the meaning of ועשו לי מקדש ושכנתי בתוכם – בתוך כל אחד ואחד Hashem resides in each one of us.
samthenylic
K if you don’t mind let me ask you a few questions.
“Hasem’s purpose in putting us in this world, is, to quote the TANYA “La’asos lo dira b’tachtonim” , via Mizvos uma’asim tovim!”
1. Can you explain what does this quote mean?
“This means NOT working to bring the Geulah, but concentrating on limud haTora, & asiyas hamizva l’shem Hashem, WITHOUT any ulterior motives.”
2. What does working for moshiach mean?
3. What’s does mitzvos lesheim shomayem mean?
4. What’s these “ulterior motives”?“This will only MINIMIZE our dedication of doing mizvos l’shem Hashem, because we will do it for OUR OWN GRATIFICATION.”
5. Why would it minimize our dedication?
6. Since when is moshiach “our own gratfichtion”?
7. What’s going to be when moshiach comes?
8. What’s the reason for mitzvos?
9. What do we accomplish by doing mitzvos/Hashems rotzion?It’s seems in your comment that your “well versed” in these topics, and came to conclusions, so wondering if you can answer these questions.
Hope I’m not asking much.RSo, your points are on target.
This is what I mean by forcing the Rambam to match your guy, rather than the other way around. This is not how Halacha works.
CS- Hidden (or concealed) does not mean dead. This is the second time I’ve needed to point this out. It’s a deliberate mistranslation, on par with the Christians.
Chossid – we do not do mitzvos for Moshiach. We do it becuase Hashem commanded us to.
yeshivishrockstar – It just occurred to me that you might be able (willing) to answer one of the simpler questions I had way back when CS first showed up that nobody will answer. I had commented on how segregated the lubavitchers are from the rest of us, even refraining from playing together on the block. They do not know the names of our schools or rabbeim, they do not attend our gatherings, even just emergency tehillim sessions. They are the only frum people in our community who segregate themselves, literally, from their neighbors . I am now very clear as to why they need to do it for preservation of their “teachings”, but my question is very simply – Are the kids taught outright to stay away from us and our kids or is it just implied somehow?
I have asked this question to lubavitch friends and on this site and have never received a response of any kind.
Syag,
I was never segregated from non Lubavitch kids, and have never heard of such a thing. I know many Lubavitchers who grew up in communities like Monsey who played with their Chassidish or Litvishe neighbors. If anything, it’s parents of the non Lubavitcher kids who don’t want the Lubavitcher kids to have a “bad influence” on their kids. I personally remember when I was a kid, a non Lubavitcher friend of mine wasn’t allowed to come play at my house by his parents…Sechel- I don’t know what to tell you. This is how it is where I live and I know it’s not just my neighborhood (I am not in New York area). Nobody here tells their kids to stay away from the Lubavitchers, they don’t have to, the Lubavitchers won’t play with us. I work with an organization that distributes food to many many Lubavitch families in the community and there are two Lubavitch couples who volunteer because, in their words, they know we service a lot of people in their community and they know that their community does not donate or support our non-Chabad organization, and they think it’s awful.[sidepoint- I have never understood why they are totally insular and self sufficient in terms of everything they do or need (schools, Shuls, bikur Cholim, social halls), but rely on the litvish communities for tomchei shabbos and tzeduka services]
Thank you for responding, tho my question still stands. Unless it’s not seen in other places…
I personally know at least ten Lubavitchers that their parents not only let there kids play with litvisheh and chassidish kids, but also sent them to their schools.
I myself originally grew up in a litvishe community, the only house my parents didn’t let me go to, were the ones that my parents didn’t trust their kashrus. But the ones that were approved, I did go play with.
And I davend in their shuls, and yeshivois.Aderabeh they don’t come to my house, or to my shul.
There is no such shita in Lubavitche and we don’t mechanech our kids to hate people, or to stay away from non Lubavitchers.
Something making me think that you teach your kids to stay away from Lubavitche…..
Syag, it hasn’t received a response, because I don’t believe it to be true. Particularly that last bit, as many Chabadniks say tehillim for everybody and most certainly do not discriminate at all cha”v.
However, there is some discrimination in official gatherings – Chabad does not officially attend the Siyum Hashas (although many Chabadniks do), is not part of Agudas Yisrael, did not take part of the huge macha against the giyus during Lapid’s gov’t (although Israeli CHabad did) and bythe internet asifa, there was some uproar when CHabad decided not to come, and then claimed they weren’t invited (or vice versa, not sure order of events there).
Furthermore, some shluchim, especially when they move into a kollel or modox community, feel the need to create their own infrastructure and fight with preexisting moisdois. When this happens, it’s a big brouhaha and brings bad feelings to lubavich. However, B”H, this is quite rare, occurs much more often by Mushrooms, and generally most Shluchim do integrate into existing communities and even send their kids to the already existing yeshivas, as per the Rebbe’s explicit instructions in the Igros (Yes, here he actually wrote this straight out, and not just through magic-asking).
However, not letting kids play by non-lubavichers? I never heard that. They’re certainly alot less segregated than other chassiduses
The biggest problem by Chabad, IMO, besides for Mashiach, is the need to constantly judge every gadol by their attitude to lubavich. Whenever a litvishe or chassidishe Rebbe dies, all the Chabad news sites will be judging them not on the basis of their greatness or their Torah, but rather what he holds about them. This practice does not exist anywhere in the Torah world. When the vizhnitzer Rebbe zt’l was niftar, no litvishe news site had comments like “he really respected Rav Shach” or “He held of our yeshivois”, rather they were all about his greatness and his qualities. Ma she’ein kein the the Chabad websites, where it was all about them.
Yeshivishrockstar
“Chossid – we do not do mitzvos for Moshiach. We do it becuase Hashem commanded us to.”
Yes we do it because Hashem commanded us to do them. (I never said otherwise)
Can you please explain to me why is it a stirah?
What’s Moshiach?
And what does it mean doing mitzvos because that’s Hashems rotzion?One of the early Gedolei Chasidus (don’t remember who) said “If Hashem paid Gan Eden for aveiros, and Gehinom for mizvos, I would still do mizvos, because that is razon Hasem.
NOT FOR MOSHIACH!Chossid, to answer your question, look at the Rambam Hilchas Lulav 8,15 and the Magid Mishneh there ויעשה הטוב מצד שהוא טוב do the good for its own sake. See the Rambam Hilchas Teshuva 10th Perek. Pirkei Avos שכר מצוה מצוה the mitzva itself is its own rewards.
YR – thank you soo much for responding! Firstly, it is absolutely true where i live. No exaggerating. I am happy to hear you dont believe it to be the case elsewhere. Seconsly, i would never say ch”v that they wouldnt daven for us, i meant that they do not come to any events ever. Not even a gathering for tehillim (i don’t mean they don’t want to daven dor people in our community, i mean there is no crossover)
There are certainly no lubavitchers in our schools, and rarely in our minyanim. When my neighbor had a shalom zachur i didnt even know, and yet we all share that type of news with each other.
Here’s an even odder thing. A family moved here from a tiny, barely existent city (that time i was exaggerating). The kids were excited to have frum neighbors and i was excited to have girls dressed bitzniut move in. My daughter often played there. One day there was some conversation that led to a tgird girl asking if they were mashichist (was a curious question, these girls dont really know any of the details) and the girl answered yes, but we were hoping not to bring that up. Since that day she has not invited my daughter in to her house, and she claims to be busy when asked to play. There was no insult due to the conversation (that has already been clarified) but she used to be the only lubavitcher who joined our kids games, now she just waves and passes by.Chossid – “Something making me think that you teach your kids to stay away from Lubavitche…..”
Grow upChossid:
Just trying to clarify to you what others have said previously, very clearly:
You seem to imply that we do Hashem’s ratzon in order to bring about Moshiach. However it is not so. Hashem will bring Moshiach when He sees fit. Our tachlis is to do ratzon Hashem, no shaychus to Moshiach. Even if we knew a certain act would bring moshiach, but it contravened halacha, it would be ossur to do it. out tachlis in this world is not to bring moshiach.
can I make this any clearer?If we we want to bring Moshiach, we must have ahavas chinom, loving someone selflessly, to correct sinas chinom hating someone for a non excusable reason such as jealousy as explained by the Yad Yosef on the EIn Yaaov, Yoma 9. If you have an excusable reason, you will be able to make peace by telling him what he did to you.
Samthenylic, wouldn’t that be a contradiction of reward and punishment which would indicate that the ratzon Hashem is to do aveiros and not to do mitzvos?
CS, jan 6 is the true nitel because of the calendar change as discussed in another thread.
I think the Shlah Hakadosh says in his Shaar Osiyos that we should see reward and punishment as a measuring stick of the ratzon Hashem.
Yes, we want to do ALL the mizvos, but that should NOT be the reason for doing it. In other words, don’t look at bias hamoshiach as the tachlis of doing the mizva. The tachlis of asiyas hamizva is tzivu Hashem.
CS: however if the world is not in the state of Moshiach then clearly it is not ratzon Hashem at this moment for us to serve Him in that way.
also,
”So anyone who cares about doing mitzvos to fulfill ratzon Hashem should want to bring the era of moshiach asap so we can do exactly that.”
WE CAN’T BRING MOSHIACH, it is not within our ability. Every day we WAIT for moshiach, every day we do not BRING moshiachA way of uniting people is learning Torah for its own sake by striving to arrive at the truth as Shimon Hamosini
was willing to give up his whole life’s work when he believed that the darshening of esin was not correct. He believed that respecting the chazal was obvious since their strength emenates from Hashem but for Reb
Akiva, who was an am haaretz, that was a chidush.profound101
“You seem to imply that we do Hashem’s ratzon in order to bring about Moshiach. However it is not so. Hashem will bring Moshiach when He sees fit. Our tachlis is to do ratzon Hashem, no shaychus to Moshiach. Even if we knew a certain act would bring moshiach, but it contravened halacha, it would be ossur to do it. out tachlis in this world is not to bring moshiach.
can I make this any clearer?”Yes please.
What does it mean “bring Moshiach”?
What’s does it mean doing Hashems rotzion? What are we accomplishing in this world by doing mitzvos?
And what is the תכלית בריאת העולם?
Why is rotzion and Moshiach a stirah?
If you answer these questions it will make your statement more clear.
samthenylic
Can you answer my questions please?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.