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The un and international countries always acuse and critize israel
For its Treatment towards Palestinians.but the un and international world should also change directions and punish the zionists
For its abuse of charedimAsking non-Jewish authorities to intervene in a dispute between Jews is always a bad idea.
Bravo! The OP, Romain, is 100% correct.
The US should put sanctions on Israel for its human rights violations against Chareidim.
follick2: the irreligious authorities don’t carry the benefit of being considered part of Klal Yisroel.
The Israeli government and many irreligious people treat chareidim badly. It’s true. But have any of you wondered about the cause? The only hatred without a cause is anti-Semitism. But for a Jew to hate another Jew will not happen without reason.
Don’t you think protests against the government and government officials might be a cause? Illegal protests, fighting against police, making fires… Aren’t there any peaceful ways to make protests??? Or what about refusing to get a draft exemption? What are we showing the chilonim? Do you think this will make them frum? Isn’t this a huge chillul Hashem???
There are other reasons. The chilonim want a secular state, and we want it to be more religious. This is also a big reason for their hate.
But when chareidim act inappropriately, the chilonim and government hate us more. So first, the chareidim in Israel should improve their behavior, and then we’ll discuss the hatred and bad treatment.ujmI understand that if you have a dispute with any Jew, you need to invite him to a BD first before going to UN. But Romain can simply move to any of the neighboring aniti-zionist countries
Ujm, what happened to not masering a Jew?
“But for a Jew to hate another Jew will not happen without reason.“
Ever heard of sinas CHINAM
coffee addict, youre right.
If there is sinas chinam in Israel, maybe we might be making it worse.Sinas Chinam comes from jealousy were the hatred has no excuse. Therefore it will kept bottled up in the heart and will not be resolved by discussing the reason for it. The Torah says not to hate your brother in your heart but tell him about it. See the Yad Yosef on the Ein Yaakov Yoma 9.
Which “treatment” are you referring to the free tuition, health insurance, monthy kollel checks, or maybe the free plots of land for shuls and yeshivos?
The world didn’t object to the holocaust (unless they had an ulterior motive to do so), so why should they object now?
akuperman dont compare to the holocaust!!!!! Theyre arent killing or jailing or torturing anybody!
romain
1. maybe they use it because they are afraid the protests will become violent (as it almost always becomes).
2. i dont know about events.
3. if somebody does something illegal, the go to jail. if not, they dont. Give me an example.
4. beating charedim? when? secular people beat charedi people? Or you mean police?duvidf: The government benefits limited to those hareidim who support zionism. Many would argue that a hareidi who supports zionism, even if only to get the money, is not really hareidi. The complaints against the government are from the anti-zionist hareidim.
“inquisitive girl”- Kal ve’homer, if they didn’t object to hareidim getting killed and tortured, why would they object to hareidim being beaten or harassed. Also, the reason the Nazis got in trouble was not they they were killing and torturing Yidden in Germany, but they were doing that to a lot of other people and invading all their neighbors.
My take is that Secular Israel is petrified of Observant Israel. In sixty five years, the yeshiva has gone from the most recent relic to be found in The Land, to the lifeblood of the fastest growing and most influential communities on the future of the State. It is obvious that we are approaching the complete nullification of the Ideal of Secular Zionism. There are even anti religious Zionist thinkers, that see movement sanctioned mitzvah observance as the only path forward for a secular state. They know they lost the intellectual battle, and are infuriated by it. The violent rhetoric coming out of certain religious camps does not put them at ease……
re: Asking goyim to intervene is a bad idea:
Not in the case of evil Zionists, it’s not a bad idea.(akuperma: That’s Zionist mythology. The Zionists, as the self-appointed leaders of world Jewry, insisted Palestine or the gas chambers and the Zionists lobbied governments against allowing Jews into their countries.)
Other than the Holocaust (in which, anyways, the Zionists had much more involvement than most people could dream), the worst possible scenario is the Zionists.
Since the Zionists invaded a century ago, the frum community begged the British and UN to leave them separate from the Zionists.
HaKatan, you are free to organize your anti-Zionist community anywhere nearby – Syria, Jordan. They should be quite supportive. You missed a moment to live under ISIS.
Hi, Hakatan!
I was waiting for you to come around. I would go ahead and point out all the lies in your revisionist history, but then you would pile on and stop responding. You could go on with your claims that all Frum Jews were anti-Zionist, and all Zionists are not part of Torah Jewry. But you and all other who adhere to this gospel, disappear when the debate gets serious. It is obvious to me, that the relationship between Zionism and Judaism is to complex to be able to uphold a dogma of absolute rejection. Even secular Zionism. If you think you can uphold your case, then please start a new thread with it.
I’m a bit annoyed. In that all your achieving, is that nobody can discuss or even criticize Israel without you coming around and insisting on a complete rejection of the State. Something like a ‘catch and kill’. You can serve your cause better, by allowing for other conversations. As well as standing by your own.
To ujm: I thought every Jew is part of Klal Yisrael.
huju: Mechalel Shabbos, treif fressers, are not included in being considered our brothers in Klal Yisroel, and the associated benefits and considerations that entails.
Dear Ujm,
It depends for what. There is no blanket statement here. Besides, even if they are excepted on the matter in question, that does not make your bad idea into a good one.
Romain: Perhaps you meant that the U.N. should take action against a segment of the Chareidi tzibur that for years has disrupted and terrorized the majority of the Israeli population with their hafganot that block traffic for hours, physical and verbal attacks on women who don’t meet their standards of tzinius, vandalize public property for display of advertisements they dislike etc. I agree that action is necessary but the Israeli security forces have finally realized enough is enough and are now more forcefully responding to these misguided “Chareidim” and I don’t think it is necessary to involve the U.N.
N0m: Yes, the statement is a blanket one.
Thats a good one Gadolhadorah!
Gadol, I am not sure how widespread and approved this behavior is. I heard from some people who were interested in joining a protest while in yeshiva in Israel and were advised by R’Y not to go.
“but the un and international world should also change directions and punish the zionists
For its abuse of charedim”
I think everyone including the UN, the Charedim and the Zionist should sit around a camp fire eat kokosh cake and drink cold milk and sign kumbayaRe: inviting UN: we have a lot of history when inviting great powers to solve our internal debates lead to great disasters: hashmonaim inviting Romans, litvakim/hasidim in Russia-occupied Vilno. Usually, the great power gains and both sides lose.
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