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Inspired by a discussion/debate I was having with someone:
Is there any benefit to serving H’ ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? If no then why do it? If yes then it would come out that ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? is more ?? ??? ???? ??? than ?? ??? ???? ??? is, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. Now the obvious answer is that you should do it because that’s what H’ wants you to do. But why should you want to do what H’ wants you to do? Maybe out of love or hakaras hatov. But what if you don’t want to do it out of love or hakaras hatov? If you say that H’ will punish you for not loving Him/having hakaras hatov or he will reward you for loving Him/having hakaras hatov then we’re back to it being ?? ??? ???? ???. So maybe you’re a bad person for not loving H’/having hakaras hatov enough to serve Him ?? ??? ???? ???. But what’s wrong with being a bad person, considering that you will never end up doing anything bad due to the fact that you want reward/don’t want punishment. The only situation in which there would be a nafka minah whether you are a good person or a bad person would be in a situation where there is no potential for reward and punishment, which can only occur in your relationship with H’.
None of the above.
?? ??? ???? ??? is shelo Lishma. Lishma is just because your supreme Being and Creator asked you to do so, and no other reason, not love, Hakaras Hatov or expectation of reward.
When faced with a Gordian knot, cut it.
Gavra, I don’t think lishmah, ahavah, and hakaras hatov are exclusive of each other.
Patur, why do I like chocolate?
Why should someone who doesn’t like breathing breathe?
PAA, there is no inherent value in liking chocolate.
As the Mishnah says, it is like a servant to his master. It is inherently proper for one of lower statute to serve One of higher stature.
And, as the Rav miBartenura says, it is from ahavah (cf. gavra), and the good feeling one has when serving from ahavah is not the pras to which ???????? ??? ???? was referring.
???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??
This is more or less how Rav Chaim Volozhiner explains the Mishna (as I remember it):
Obviously, we are required to serve Hashem whether we like it or not. As our Creator and Master, He has total rights over what we do, and we must obey.
If a person can not motivate himself to serve Hashem without thought of reward and punishment, then he should serve based on that motivation (????? ????? ??? ????).
This is not someone who can rightfully be called an eved at all. Hopefully, be’ezras Hashem, he will eventually reach the level of serving simply because it is what Hashem “wants” (????? ??? ???? ?? ????).
On a deeper level, one may argue that Hashem “wants” to reward us, so serving with thought of reward should qualify as lishma.
In fact, this is true, but only if the thought of reward is purely intended to satisfy Retzono Yisbarach. For most people, this is not possible.
There were some “Avadim” (slaves who served because it satisfied their Master’s Will) who were able to incorporate thought of reward into their service in this way. Outstanding individuals such as Moshe Rabbeinu, Avraham Avinu and David Hamelech were ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.
The Mishna cautions us not to try to emulate their example, since for most people it would be counterproductive. Of course, we should strive to be Avadim (slaves, who serve not out of any thought of personal gain, but because they must obey their Master), but we should be content with the status of ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, which is the lower of the two.
You want to ????? the ???? of ???”?:
a) because you Love HKB”H, [which may or may not be as a result of ????? ?? ?’ ?????, or because of instinctive ???? ????], and you should WANT to do it. [Imagine there was no ???? ????? ?? ???, there are definitely times and opportunities where you would WANT to do something to respect and honour your father, not necessarily because you HAVE to.
b) You also want to be ????? the ???? ????? because ??? ??????, and ?? ??? ???? are created purely to be ????? ???? ?????. (Which is why a ??? or a ??? must keep ????? ????? etc., see ??????? ???? ??????). Which, of course, isn’t ????? you, because you can of course deny the purpose of creation and party, but in obviously SHOULD be ????? ???? ?????.
PAA, it is a big deal, because of the inherent value of doing His ratzon (which is to serve Him shelo al m’nas).
In fact, he will get more s’char for following shelo al m’nas, however, if a person only serves shelo al m’nas because he knows this will garner him more s’char, THAT’S your conundrum (well, paradox, really).
Patur Aval Assur – who says you have to “want” to serve the RBSO?
DY – Agreed, but for a deeper discussion. Also the Hakdama to Mishna Berurah Chelek Gimmel (always a good thing to Chazer) says similar to what you/we are saying L’gabay the Creator & supreme Being.
catch yourself – Thanks for your contribution. This is why I am here, to learn something new.
What inherent value is there in doing Hashem’s will?
Assuming you believe, fulfilling the purpose for which this earth was created. Why Mitzvos do so is not your or my concern.
Patur Aval Assur,
Is there any benefit to serving H’ ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? If no then why do it?
Must there be a benefit to something for a person to do it? How about, “it’s just the right thing to do”? This is the type of question that would make no sense in the world before Adam ate from the etz hadaas.
If yes then it would come out that ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? is more ?? ??? ???? ??? than ?? ??? ???? ??? is, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.
Only if you assume that the person is doing it only for the benefit. In which case the person would not be acting ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? at all. This seems like a false conundrum to me.
When we love a person, we can do things for him/her based on two motivations: out of fear that we will lose the person we love if we don’t do those things (selfish motivation), or because we want to bring pleasure to the person we love (selfless motivation). Let’s pretend that the person we love cannot tell the difference (i.e., no “benefit” from loving selflessly – though in real life there would be a noticeable difference). Would you therefore conclude that the latter is no better than the former?
Patur Aval Assur,
Consider the following scenario (loosely based on a work by R’ David Fohrman, with some of my own details added):
Shimon just received the most amazing gift from Hashem while at the store – a “get out of jail free one time” card! This means that if Shimon commits a sin, he can turn in that card and have the punishment wiped away, no harm, no foul. The card will evaporate in five minutes.
Shimon starts to back his giant SUV out of his parking space, and crunch!! he bangs into a fancy BMW. Nobody was around to see it. No paint or any other evidence was left on the bashed up BMW. Shimon knows for certain that if he drives away, there is no way for anyone to know that he did it. His SUV doesn’t even have a scratch after all. Only one problem: Hashem knows what he did, and leaving without taking responsibility would be a sin. But wait! He’s got that get out of jail free one time card! And it’s about to evaporate, so he’s gotta use it or lose it!
Here’s the question: Does Shimon leave a note on the BMW, or just drive away, no harm no foul? Answering this would help describe what it means to serve Hashem ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.
Shimon just received the most amazing gift from Hashem while at the store – a “get out of jail free one time” card! This means that if Shimon commits a sin, he can turn in that card and have the punishment wiped away, no harm, no foul. The card will evaporate in five minutes.
No harm no foul = Muttar?
gavra_at_work,
No harm no foul = Muttar?
I was thinking assur, but the card yields instant atonement without having to do teshuva, compensation, Yom Kippur, etc. It’s a highly contrived scenario just to make a point, and I thought it up on the spot, so it might be rough around the edges. Most people have an instinctual moral compass even without religious sensibilities, e.g, I wouldn’t want someone to do X to me, so I shouldn’t do X to someone else. So the crash scenario means that “doing the right thing” would cause a headache (and hence there’s a strong natural inclination to not do the right thing) but my application here removes the fear of divine retribution that might provide counter-motivation to a believer.
Patur, the Tanna is simply saying not to work with the reward in mind. Of course, ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????. You are doing the Mitzva anyhow, and you were originally motivated by reward. But while doing it don’t make the reward your focus.
You should strive to love Hashem and His Mitzvos to the extent that you’ll yearn to do them regardless of their reward. And yes, your motivation for making yourself this way will be for your benefit. But the level you will have arrived at will be about not considering reward.
Avram in MD – If it is muttar than it should not cause any more concern than if someone’s shirt got damaged by him tripping on a banana left on the street (assuming that is Bor and Kailim are Patur). We (as Yidden) follow Halacha, and while there is the concept of “morally responsible” (Chayiv B’dei Shomayim), if that doesn’t apply than you have no responsibility.
In your example I would argue that while the card allows one to avoid punishment, the Chiyuv mammon still exists.
If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.
We have no idea, but trust that if He asked us to do so, it must serve a higher purpose.
Gavra, I think that doesn’t detract from Avram’s point; if there’s a chiyuv mammon but no enforcement or consequence, we should still agree that it’s proper to pay.
gavra_at_work,
In your example I would argue that while the card allows one to avoid punishment, the Chiyuv mammon still exists.
I agree with you, but Patur Aval Assur seems to be asking why we should care about a chiyuv anyway if not for reward/avoiding punishment or “feeling good”. So I presented a scenario where there was a chiyuv but no punishment attached, and doing it certainly wouldn’t lead to “feeling good.” Apparently he is also questioning the value of doing the right thing for its own sake.
So far, the only suggestion that holds water is the fact that shtelling tzu to the Rotzoin HaBoireh is the right thing to do.
If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.
We have no idea, but trust that if He asked us to do so, it must serve a higher purpose.
[PAA, GAW]
I disagree with GAW. The fact that it is ???? ????? is not a ???? that it is a good thing and therefore we should do it, it is a ???? in itself for us to do it.
PAA questions on that that there is no ????? to have morals. But we are not looking for a ????? here. ???? ????, which is [also] a collection of Ethics, tells us that doing something sorely for the reason that HKB”H was ????? us, and not for any other reason, is the ideal way of performing a ????.
I agree with PAA, by the way. If I was not Jewish (CH”V, etc. etc.), and I would have no religious obligations, and I would not believe in the Noahide Laws, I would probably steal if it suited me, because why not? I wouldn’t steal from somebody I liked, perhaps, but I might shoplift from Walmart, ??????.
What is obligating one to follow his morals? Why must I do things that are considered right and not do things that are considered wrong? (This is all from a totally non-Jewish perspective)
If you recognize the truth of the Torah, you know that it really is not a choice. You are Hashem’s creation, His slave. You owe Him your existence, and He demands your compliance with His Law.
This is the reason to serve Him ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. You are to serve because that is who you are; you are to have a slave mentality, which means that you are not to have the capacity of thinking about personal gain. There is to be no such thing as personal gain in your world.
If you (like nearly all other people) are not yet at the level where you can completely identify with this ideal, you are encouraged to serve Him ?? ??? ???? ???.
If you recognize the truth of the Torah, you know that it really is not a choice. You are Hashem’s creation, His slave. You owe Him your existence, and He demands your compliance with His Law.
In that case, you do have a choice of non-compliance. He may eliminate your existence, or punish, but the choice is still open. Besides, God does not expect the individual to be a mindless automaton, so I don’t really understand what you mean.
I disagree with GAW. The fact that it is ???? ????? is not a ???? that it is a good thing and therefore we should do it, it is a ???? in itself for us to do it.
I agree as well. See below.
We might finally be getting somewhere. But why should you care about G-d’s higher purpose?
Two separate questions.
1: We were put here to serve the RBSO, and therefore it is the fulfillment of our purpose to do so. It should be axiomatic that a thinking being wishes to fulfill its purpose.
2: How that service relates back to other items or purposes or what value our purpose has is once again in His realm and not really our concern.
PAA asks “what inherent value there is in doing the “right thing”. If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.”
The point is that we are supposed to relate to Hashem both as avadim and as banim (and the Torah describes us with both terms). From the perspective of avadim, it makes sense to ask why one should try to make one’s master happy if those efforts will not be acknowledged through a reward or a lack of punishment. But from the perspective of a parent-child relationship, this is not a question, because in a normal healthy situation, parents and children want to make each other happy out of love for one another, even without considering reward and punishment. Now, obviously, feeling love for Hashem the same way we do for our close family members is not always easy or simple, but that’s exactly why doing a mitzvah shelo al menas lekabel pras is considered a big madreiga.
PAA,
Just to clarify, you are asking why we should serve Hashem?… If so you are questioning why we exist – Right?
You ask now why it is better that the focus is Hashem and not the reward? That part is obvious, and that’s where the Mashal comes in. That is the real Oved. About your original question why you should do it, granted that it is better, my response was that indeed working your way to that level can be with reward in mind.
The point is that we are supposed to relate to Hashem both as avadim and as banim (and the Torah describes us with both terms). From the perspective of avadim, it makes sense to ask why one should try to make one’s master happy if those efforts will not be acknowledged through a reward or a lack of punishment. But from the perspective of a parent-child relationship, this is not a question, because in a normal healthy situation, parents and children want to make each other happy out of love for one another, even without considering reward and punishment. Now, obviously, feeling love for Hashem the same way we do for our close family members is not always easy or simple, but that’s exactly why doing a mitzvah shelo al menas lekabel pras is considered a big madreiga.
You really haven’t answered the question. See above.
You seem to agree with me on that; you just feel that once G-d made his ratzon known to us, there is an inherent value in adhering to it. To which I ask “why?”
I think i pointed out before (forgive me if I wasn’t clear!) – I can’t give you a ????? to adhere to ???? ?????. But under the context of production – ie ???? ????, which definitely is a ????? on “Torahdik Ethics” – it does make sense.
Your question is on the entire idea of ethics and morals. This is after that. This is simply stating the ideal manner of perfection to one who is being ????? the ???? ?????, ie doing G-ds will without ulterior motives is the optimal performance of G-ds will.
What aren’t you getting? It’s not about feeling good. It is the best and most committed way of worshiping Hashem. Intrinsic value doesn’t mean getting reward. Intrinsic value means it is the best way. Now, of course you get much more S’char for doing ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? since you are actually serving Hashem better. But that is not a Stira. The point is not to do it for that sake. Your reason for training yourself to reach the level of doing it purely for Hashem might be for the reward. But having gotten to that level means that you no longer think about the reward, only about how grateful you are to be doing Hashem’s Mitzvos.
Summary: We understand that the optimal way of serving G-d is doing it without ulterior motives. PAA questions what motive somebody would have if not ulterior motives. Which pretty much is a question on the entire Judaism: Why should I keep the Torah? Because G-d said so? Who cares? Oh, because of Gehennom? Is there no reason obligating me simply because G-d said?
Patur Aval Assur,
Ok. Thank you everyone for your responses, even though I still think no one actually answered my questions.
Your questions are not new ones. In fact, they were asked long ago in Gan Eden by the snake. I think you have received answers to your question, but you don’t feel like you did because the answers you got were human answers, but you want snake answers.
The point is that if the only reason to serve Hashem out of love is that you feel good about it, then that means that it is completely up to you to decide how to serve Hashem,
If you think that doing things for others out of love only has value because it makes you feel good, then you’re missing the entire point of what it means to be a human being.
and if you don’t want to serve Him out of love
This is where I think we diverge at the human-snake interface. I believe that it is intrinsic to the nature of human beings to want to serve Hashem and to be eternal. This is why Hashem would bother speaking to us at all, as opposed to animals who obey only their bodily instincts. Also, when humans have a yearning, they usually associate the yearning with love. Therefore, your statement that a person would not want to serve Hashem out of love is an impossibility.
So why are we not all perfect servants of Hashem? Because we also have animalistic instincts and desires that confuse us and compete with our eternal aspect. Also, due to this more base type of interaction with the world, Hashem’s presence is hidden, so many people mistakenly express their desire to connect with the eternal through ephemeral things like idolatry, legacy building, etc. Even if a person has never heard of Hashem, they still have a desire to connect with the eternal. The realizations that all of these efforts are ultimately futile is a source of angst and depression. So when Hashem gave us the Torah and showed us how to do it in the real, correct way, it was a source of joy and love.
Unless you use the Ratzon Haborei argument. But no one has yet explained why you should do the ratzon haborei (assuming it won’t affect reward/punishment). Because that’s why you were created? So what – why should that make you have to or even want to do the ratzon Hashem?
If you’re an animal, then I cannot answer you. But that’s ok, because Hashem doesn’t speak to you anyway. If you’re a human, look deep down and you’ll understand that having to explain why you should have to or want to do the ratzon haBorei is superfluous. You just want to do it.
But why shouldn’t you be a bad person?
Isn’t it strange that even the most evil people convince themselves that they are not evil? Bad guys who say, “mwaa hahahaaa, I’m an evil bad guy!” only exist in cartoons.
Remember when your parents told you to always brush your teeth?
Of course your mouth may smell better, and your teeth may stay healthier for more years… However, you may not realize those things in short term. What you do realize and feel good about is that you are being obedient and making your parents happy. And you know that your parents told you to do it for your own good and that’s why you keep doing it.
I think yekke2 did sum it up nicely, but Avram is correct. There’s no reason why there has to be a step past “because it’s the right thing”. That is intrinsic, and by definition, why someone should do it doesn’t need to be explained.
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