Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk)

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  • #614066
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Inspired by a discussion/debate I was having with someone:

    Is there any benefit to serving H’ ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? If no then why do it? If yes then it would come out that ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? is more ?? ??? ???? ??? than ?? ??? ???? ??? is, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. Now the obvious answer is that you should do it because that’s what H’ wants you to do. But why should you want to do what H’ wants you to do? Maybe out of love or hakaras hatov. But what if you don’t want to do it out of love or hakaras hatov? If you say that H’ will punish you for not loving Him/having hakaras hatov or he will reward you for loving Him/having hakaras hatov then we’re back to it being ?? ??? ???? ???. So maybe you’re a bad person for not loving H’/having hakaras hatov enough to serve Him ?? ??? ???? ???. But what’s wrong with being a bad person, considering that you will never end up doing anything bad due to the fact that you want reward/don’t want punishment. The only situation in which there would be a nafka minah whether you are a good person or a bad person would be in a situation where there is no potential for reward and punishment, which can only occur in your relationship with H’.

    #1090127
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    None of the above.

    ?? ??? ???? ??? is shelo Lishma. Lishma is just because your supreme Being and Creator asked you to do so, and no other reason, not love, Hakaras Hatov or expectation of reward.

    When faced with a Gordian knot, cut it.

    #1090128
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t see how that cut the knot. It just brings us back to my opening two sentences:

    “Is there any benefit to serving H’ ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? If no then why do it?”

    Granted, the Supreme Being and Creator asked you to do so, but why should you want to do what He asks of you?

    #1090129

    Gavra, I don’t think lishmah, ahavah, and hakaras hatov are exclusive of each other.

    Patur, why do I like chocolate?

    #1090130
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Why should someone who doesn’t like chocolate like it?

    #1090131
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why should someone who doesn’t like breathing breathe?

    #1090132
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Because he likes living. If he doesn’t like living or breathing then you are absolutely right – why should he breathe?

    #1090133

    PAA, there is no inherent value in liking chocolate.

    #1090134
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So to answer my question you would have to explain what the inherent value in listening to ???”? is and why that value would not make it ?? ??? ???? ???.

    #1090135

    As the Mishnah says, it is like a servant to his master. It is inherently proper for one of lower statute to serve One of higher stature.

    And, as the Rav miBartenura says, it is from ahavah (cf. gavra), and the good feeling one has when serving from ahavah is not the pras to which ???????? ??? ???? was referring.

    #1090136
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So now you are saying that it has nothing to do with the fact that Hashem wants it; it’s simply that you’ll get a good feeling by serving Hashem from ahavah. So if someone decides that he doesn’t want to serve Hashem out of ahavah, it’s no issue whatsoever – he just won’t get that feeling.

    #1090137
    catch yourself
    Participant

    ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??

    This is more or less how Rav Chaim Volozhiner explains the Mishna (as I remember it):

    Obviously, we are required to serve Hashem whether we like it or not. As our Creator and Master, He has total rights over what we do, and we must obey.

    If a person can not motivate himself to serve Hashem without thought of reward and punishment, then he should serve based on that motivation (????? ????? ??? ????).

    This is not someone who can rightfully be called an eved at all. Hopefully, be’ezras Hashem, he will eventually reach the level of serving simply because it is what Hashem “wants” (????? ??? ???? ?? ????).

    On a deeper level, one may argue that Hashem “wants” to reward us, so serving with thought of reward should qualify as lishma.

    In fact, this is true, but only if the thought of reward is purely intended to satisfy Retzono Yisbarach. For most people, this is not possible.

    There were some “Avadim” (slaves who served because it satisfied their Master’s Will) who were able to incorporate thought of reward into their service in this way. Outstanding individuals such as Moshe Rabbeinu, Avraham Avinu and David Hamelech were ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.

    The Mishna cautions us not to try to emulate their example, since for most people it would be counterproductive. Of course, we should strive to be Avadim (slaves, who serve not out of any thought of personal gain, but because they must obey their Master), but we should be content with the status of ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, which is the lower of the two.

    #1090138
    Chortkov
    Participant

    You want to ????? the ???? of ???”?:

    a) because you Love HKB”H, [which may or may not be as a result of ????? ?? ?’ ?????, or because of instinctive ???? ????], and you should WANT to do it. [Imagine there was no ???? ????? ?? ???, there are definitely times and opportunities where you would WANT to do something to respect and honour your father, not necessarily because you HAVE to.

    b) You also want to be ????? the ???? ????? because ??? ??????, and ?? ??? ???? are created purely to be ????? ???? ?????. (Which is why a ??? or a ??? must keep ????? ????? etc., see ??????? ???? ??????). Which, of course, isn’t ????? you, because you can of course deny the purpose of creation and party, but in obviously SHOULD be ????? ???? ?????.

    #1090139

    PAA, it is a big deal, because of the inherent value of doing His ratzon (which is to serve Him shelo al m’nas).

    In fact, he will get more s’char for following shelo al m’nas, however, if a person only serves shelo al m’nas because he knows this will garner him more s’char, THAT’S your conundrum (well, paradox, really).

    #1090140
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur – who says you have to “want” to serve the RBSO?

    DY – Agreed, but for a deeper discussion. Also the Hakdama to Mishna Berurah Chelek Gimmel (always a good thing to Chazer) says similar to what you/we are saying L’gabay the Creator & supreme Being.

    catch yourself – Thanks for your contribution. This is why I am here, to learn something new.

    #1090141
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I still don’t see how anyone answered the question. What inherent value is there in doing Hashem’s will? If it’s just for you to feel good about yourself, then it is purely the choice of the worshiper to decide whether he wants to get that feeling, and there would be nothing wrong if he decides not to. And if he doesn’t feel good about loving Hashem then again there would be no reason to serve ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. If the answer is as DaasYochid said (which I included in my original question), that you get more schar for doing it ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, then the only reason to do so is to get more schar in which case it is actually ?? ??? ???? ???.

    #1090142
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    What inherent value is there in doing Hashem’s will?

    Assuming you believe, fulfilling the purpose for which this earth was created. Why Mitzvos do so is not your or my concern.

    #1090143
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur,

    Is there any benefit to serving H’ ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? If no then why do it?

    Must there be a benefit to something for a person to do it? How about, “it’s just the right thing to do”? This is the type of question that would make no sense in the world before Adam ate from the etz hadaas.

    If yes then it would come out that ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? is more ?? ??? ???? ??? than ?? ??? ???? ??? is, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.

    Only if you assume that the person is doing it only for the benefit. In which case the person would not be acting ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? at all. This seems like a false conundrum to me.

    When we love a person, we can do things for him/her based on two motivations: out of fear that we will lose the person we love if we don’t do those things (selfish motivation), or because we want to bring pleasure to the person we love (selfless motivation). Let’s pretend that the person we love cannot tell the difference (i.e., no “benefit” from loving selflessly – though in real life there would be a noticeable difference). Would you therefore conclude that the latter is no better than the former?

    #1090144
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And why should you want to fulfill the purpose for which this earth was created?

    #1090145
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur,

    Consider the following scenario (loosely based on a work by R’ David Fohrman, with some of my own details added):

    Shimon just received the most amazing gift from Hashem while at the store – a “get out of jail free one time” card! This means that if Shimon commits a sin, he can turn in that card and have the punishment wiped away, no harm, no foul. The card will evaporate in five minutes.

    Shimon starts to back his giant SUV out of his parking space, and crunch!! he bangs into a fancy BMW. Nobody was around to see it. No paint or any other evidence was left on the bashed up BMW. Shimon knows for certain that if he drives away, there is no way for anyone to know that he did it. His SUV doesn’t even have a scratch after all. Only one problem: Hashem knows what he did, and leaving without taking responsibility would be a sin. But wait! He’s got that get out of jail free one time card! And it’s about to evaporate, so he’s gotta use it or lose it!

    Here’s the question: Does Shimon leave a note on the BMW, or just drive away, no harm no foul? Answering this would help describe what it means to serve Hashem ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.

    #1090146
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Shimon just received the most amazing gift from Hashem while at the store – a “get out of jail free one time” card! This means that if Shimon commits a sin, he can turn in that card and have the punishment wiped away, no harm, no foul. The card will evaporate in five minutes.

    No harm no foul = Muttar?

    #1090147
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    No harm no foul = Muttar?

    I was thinking assur, but the card yields instant atonement without having to do teshuva, compensation, Yom Kippur, etc. It’s a highly contrived scenario just to make a point, and I thought it up on the spot, so it might be rough around the edges. Most people have an instinctual moral compass even without religious sensibilities, e.g, I wouldn’t want someone to do X to me, so I shouldn’t do X to someone else. So the crash scenario means that “doing the right thing” would cause a headache (and hence there’s a strong natural inclination to not do the right thing) but my application here removes the fear of divine retribution that might provide counter-motivation to a believer.

    #1090148
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Patur, the Tanna is simply saying not to work with the reward in mind. Of course, ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????. You are doing the Mitzva anyhow, and you were originally motivated by reward. But while doing it don’t make the reward your focus.

    You should strive to love Hashem and His Mitzvos to the extent that you’ll yearn to do them regardless of their reward. And yes, your motivation for making yourself this way will be for your benefit. But the level you will have arrived at will be about not considering reward.

    #1090149
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Ok, maybe I’m not being clear because I still think no one is getting my point. So far it seems that there have been three reasons mentioned for why you should serve Hashem ??? ?? ??? ???? ???:

    1) You will get more schar.

    2) You will feel good.

    3) It is simply the right thing to do.

    My response to number one is that it is ipso facto ?? ??? ???? ???.

    My response to number two is that then there is no inherent ideal of serving Hashem ??? ?? ??? ???? ???; it is simply a way for you to get a good feeling. Thus, if you don’t have that feeling, or you don’t care about it, you shouldn’t bother to serve Hashem in this way.

    My response to number three is to question what inherent value there is in doing the “right thing”. If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.

    #1090150
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avram in MD – If it is muttar than it should not cause any more concern than if someone’s shirt got damaged by him tripping on a banana left on the street (assuming that is Bor and Kailim are Patur). We (as Yidden) follow Halacha, and while there is the concept of “morally responsible” (Chayiv B’dei Shomayim), if that doesn’t apply than you have no responsibility.

    In your example I would argue that while the card allows one to avoid punishment, the Chiyuv mammon still exists.

    If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.

    We have no idea, but trust that if He asked us to do so, it must serve a higher purpose.

    #1090152
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I posted my previous response before some of the other posts were up.

    Haleivi:

    That doesn’t explain why you shouldn’t make the reward your focus.

    Gavra:

    We might finally be getting somewhere. But why should you care about a higher G-d’s higher purpose?

    #1090153

    Gavra, I think that doesn’t detract from Avram’s point; if there’s a chiyuv mammon but no enforcement or consequence, we should still agree that it’s proper to pay.

    #1090154
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    In your example I would argue that while the card allows one to avoid punishment, the Chiyuv mammon still exists.

    I agree with you, but Patur Aval Assur seems to be asking why we should care about a chiyuv anyway if not for reward/avoiding punishment or “feeling good”. So I presented a scenario where there was a chiyuv but no punishment attached, and doing it certainly wouldn’t lead to “feeling good.” Apparently he is also questioning the value of doing the right thing for its own sake.

    #1090155
    Chortkov
    Participant

    So far, the only suggestion that holds water is the fact that shtelling tzu to the Rotzoin HaBoireh is the right thing to do.

    If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.

    We have no idea, but trust that if He asked us to do so, it must serve a higher purpose.

    [PAA, GAW]

    I disagree with GAW. The fact that it is ???? ????? is not a ???? that it is a good thing and therefore we should do it, it is a ???? in itself for us to do it.

    PAA questions on that that there is no ????? to have morals. But we are not looking for a ????? here. ???? ????, which is [also] a collection of Ethics, tells us that doing something sorely for the reason that HKB”H was ????? us, and not for any other reason, is the ideal way of performing a ????.

    #1090156
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I agree with PAA, by the way. If I was not Jewish (CH”V, etc. etc.), and I would have no religious obligations, and I would not believe in the Noahide Laws, I would probably steal if it suited me, because why not? I wouldn’t steal from somebody I liked, perhaps, but I might shoplift from Walmart, ??????.

    What is obligating one to follow his morals? Why must I do things that are considered right and not do things that are considered wrong? (This is all from a totally non-Jewish perspective)


    #1090157
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The first “higher” in my immediately preceding post was a mistake.

    #1090158
    catch yourself
    Participant

    If you recognize the truth of the Torah, you know that it really is not a choice. You are Hashem’s creation, His slave. You owe Him your existence, and He demands your compliance with His Law.

    This is the reason to serve Him ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. You are to serve because that is who you are; you are to have a slave mentality, which means that you are not to have the capacity of thinking about personal gain. There is to be no such thing as personal gain in your world.

    If you (like nearly all other people) are not yet at the level where you can completely identify with this ideal, you are encouraged to serve Him ?? ??? ???? ???.

    #1090159
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If you recognize the truth of the Torah, you know that it really is not a choice. You are Hashem’s creation, His slave. You owe Him your existence, and He demands your compliance with His Law.

    In that case, you do have a choice of non-compliance. He may eliminate your existence, or punish, but the choice is still open. Besides, God does not expect the individual to be a mindless automaton, so I don’t really understand what you mean.

    I disagree with GAW. The fact that it is ???? ????? is not a ???? that it is a good thing and therefore we should do it, it is a ???? in itself for us to do it.

    I agree as well. See below.

    We might finally be getting somewhere. But why should you care about G-d’s higher purpose?

    Two separate questions.

    1: We were put here to serve the RBSO, and therefore it is the fulfillment of our purpose to do so. It should be axiomatic that a thinking being wishes to fulfill its purpose.

    2: How that service relates back to other items or purposes or what value our purpose has is once again in His realm and not really our concern.

    #1090160

    PAA asks “what inherent value there is in doing the “right thing”. If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.”

    The point is that we are supposed to relate to Hashem both as avadim and as banim (and the Torah describes us with both terms). From the perspective of avadim, it makes sense to ask why one should try to make one’s master happy if those efforts will not be acknowledged through a reward or a lack of punishment. But from the perspective of a parent-child relationship, this is not a question, because in a normal healthy situation, parents and children want to make each other happy out of love for one another, even without considering reward and punishment. Now, obviously, feeling love for Hashem the same way we do for our close family members is not always easy or simple, but that’s exactly why doing a mitzvah shelo al menas lekabel pras is considered a big madreiga.

    #1090161
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    It’s interesting, because I opened this thread by saying that this was inspired by a discussion I was having with someone and it happens to be that that discussion was itself a tangent of the original discussion in which I argued that there is no mechayev for morality. You seem to agree with me on that; you just feel that once G-d made his ratzon known to us, there is an inherent value in adhering to it. To which I ask “why?”

    Catch Yourself:

    You’re not explaining why that should be so.

    #1090162
    balancehumanbalance
    Participant

    PAA,

    Just to clarify, you are asking why we should serve Hashem?… If so you are questioning why we exist – Right?

    #1090163
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You ask now why it is better that the focus is Hashem and not the reward? That part is obvious, and that’s where the Mashal comes in. That is the real Oved. About your original question why you should do it, granted that it is better, my response was that indeed working your way to that level can be with reward in mind.

    #1090164
    Chortkov
    Participant

    The point is that we are supposed to relate to Hashem both as avadim and as banim (and the Torah describes us with both terms). From the perspective of avadim, it makes sense to ask why one should try to make one’s master happy if those efforts will not be acknowledged through a reward or a lack of punishment. But from the perspective of a parent-child relationship, this is not a question, because in a normal healthy situation, parents and children want to make each other happy out of love for one another, even without considering reward and punishment. Now, obviously, feeling love for Hashem the same way we do for our close family members is not always easy or simple, but that’s exactly why doing a mitzvah shelo al menas lekabel pras is considered a big madreiga.

    You really haven’t answered the question. See above.

    #1090165
    Chortkov
    Participant

    You seem to agree with me on that; you just feel that once G-d made his ratzon known to us, there is an inherent value in adhering to it. To which I ask “why?”

    I think i pointed out before (forgive me if I wasn’t clear!) – I can’t give you a ????? to adhere to ???? ?????. But under the context of production – ie ???? ????, which definitely is a ????? on “Torahdik Ethics” – it does make sense.

    Your question is on the entire idea of ethics and morals. This is after that. This is simply stating the ideal manner of perfection to one who is being ????? the ???? ?????, ie doing G-ds will without ulterior motives is the optimal performance of G-ds will.

    #1090166
    Chortkov
    Participant
    #1090167
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Ok. Thank you everyone for your responses, even though I still think no one actually answered my questions. A couple of people suggested that it makes sense to serve Hashem out of love. I never denied that. In fact I mentioned that in my first post. The point is that if the only reason to serve Hashem out of love is that you feel good about it, then that means that it is completely up to you to decide how to serve Hashem, and if you don’t want to serve Him out of love (for whatever reason which you feel overrides the feeling that you will get) then there is no reason why you should do so, since there is no extrinsic value in serving Hashem out of love. Unless you use the Ratzon Haborei argument. But no one has yet explained why you should do the ratzon haborei (assuming it won’t affect reward/punishment). Because that’s why you were created? So what – why should that make you have to or even want to do the ratzon Hashem? Unless you fall onto the love/hakaras hatov argument. Which is back where we started. And this is all besides for the question of why you should love/have gratitude to Hashem. Maybe you’re a bad person if you don’t. But why shouldn’t you be a bad person?

    #1090168
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And lichora the fact that there is a statement of ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? would seemingly indicate that there IS an extrinsic (to you; intrinsic to the concept) value in doing so.

    #1090169
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What aren’t you getting? It’s not about feeling good. It is the best and most committed way of worshiping Hashem. Intrinsic value doesn’t mean getting reward. Intrinsic value means it is the best way. Now, of course you get much more S’char for doing ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? since you are actually serving Hashem better. But that is not a Stira. The point is not to do it for that sake. Your reason for training yourself to reach the level of doing it purely for Hashem might be for the reward. But having gotten to that level means that you no longer think about the reward, only about how grateful you are to be doing Hashem’s Mitzvos.

    #1090170
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Summary: We understand that the optimal way of serving G-d is doing it without ulterior motives. PAA questions what motive somebody would have if not ulterior motives. Which pretty much is a question on the entire Judaism: Why should I keep the Torah? Because G-d said so? Who cares? Oh, because of Gehennom? Is there no reason obligating me simply because G-d said?

    #1090171
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Why is it the best and most committed way? And why should you do it simply because it is the best and most committed way?

    #1090172
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur,

    Ok. Thank you everyone for your responses, even though I still think no one actually answered my questions.

    Your questions are not new ones. In fact, they were asked long ago in Gan Eden by the snake. I think you have received answers to your question, but you don’t feel like you did because the answers you got were human answers, but you want snake answers.

    The point is that if the only reason to serve Hashem out of love is that you feel good about it, then that means that it is completely up to you to decide how to serve Hashem,

    If you think that doing things for others out of love only has value because it makes you feel good, then you’re missing the entire point of what it means to be a human being.

    and if you don’t want to serve Him out of love

    This is where I think we diverge at the human-snake interface. I believe that it is intrinsic to the nature of human beings to want to serve Hashem and to be eternal. This is why Hashem would bother speaking to us at all, as opposed to animals who obey only their bodily instincts. Also, when humans have a yearning, they usually associate the yearning with love. Therefore, your statement that a person would not want to serve Hashem out of love is an impossibility.

    So why are we not all perfect servants of Hashem? Because we also have animalistic instincts and desires that confuse us and compete with our eternal aspect. Also, due to this more base type of interaction with the world, Hashem’s presence is hidden, so many people mistakenly express their desire to connect with the eternal through ephemeral things like idolatry, legacy building, etc. Even if a person has never heard of Hashem, they still have a desire to connect with the eternal. The realizations that all of these efforts are ultimately futile is a source of angst and depression. So when Hashem gave us the Torah and showed us how to do it in the real, correct way, it was a source of joy and love.

    Unless you use the Ratzon Haborei argument. But no one has yet explained why you should do the ratzon haborei (assuming it won’t affect reward/punishment). Because that’s why you were created? So what – why should that make you have to or even want to do the ratzon Hashem?

    If you’re an animal, then I cannot answer you. But that’s ok, because Hashem doesn’t speak to you anyway. If you’re a human, look deep down and you’ll understand that having to explain why you should have to or want to do the ratzon haBorei is superfluous. You just want to do it.

    But why shouldn’t you be a bad person?

    Isn’t it strange that even the most evil people convince themselves that they are not evil? Bad guys who say, “mwaa hahahaaa, I’m an evil bad guy!” only exist in cartoons.

    #1090173
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    A nice, succinct way of putting it, Yekke2.

    #1090174
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Remember when your parents told you to always brush your teeth?

    Of course your mouth may smell better, and your teeth may stay healthier for more years… However, you may not realize those things in short term. What you do realize and feel good about is that you are being obedient and making your parents happy. And you know that your parents told you to do it for your own good and that’s why you keep doing it.

    #1090175

    I think yekke2 did sum it up nicely, but Avram is correct. There’s no reason why there has to be a step past “because it’s the right thing”. That is intrinsic, and by definition, why someone should do it doesn’t need to be explained.

    #1090176
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Let’s put the question a little differently. If Hashem would give you the Torah and command you to fulfill it but He tells you that whether o not you fulfill it has nothing to do with anything, i.e. there is no reward/punishment and no ramifications of any sort. Would you do it?

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