Theological question

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  • #1991862
    Avi K
    Participant

    Is “ushmo, ushmo, ushmo echad” apikorsut? It sounds like three equals one.

    #1991947
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    This is what Jews are thinking about in 2021?

    #1991955
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Doesn’t the halacha say not to repeat shema twice, in O’CH (61,9) and MB s’k 22, so I would say yes.

    #1991984
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    What are your 2021 thoughts?

    #1992016
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s prefaced with the shem hashem being one, so if he’s one, his name is clearly one as well; “and his name” 2x would only imply more than one person *maybe* if not for the first part of the pasuk

    #1992051
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Even though Hashem has many shem kinuyim reflecting His behavior, His name y-k-v-k is one. I think this is worse than repeating shema twice which might be a request to beg for His listening.

    #1992059
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    This in contrast the prolonged “echaaadddddddddd” in the Shema (with an emphasis

    #1992067
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    (continued) with an emphasis on the “daled” where some hold the “D” long enough to draw a mental picture of Hashem’s malchus over all that is above, below, and the four sides of shamayim

    #1992087
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, you mean four sides of the world as in SA O’CH (61,6) not shamayim.

    #1992088
    Benephraim
    Participant

    The same question may be asked on the Kedusha诇讻讗讜专讛 when we repeat the 拽 word 3 times. That however comes directly from the 谞讘讬讗. And is explained by the 转专讙讜诐to refer to 3 dimensions. Here the intent of repetition is sing song so its a question if any of them count.

    #1992093
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb E: Never to argue, C’V, with the CR of the CR, but in a metaphysical sense, wouldn’t shamayim (viewed in a 3 dimensional context) have four sides in addition to up and down. When we think of malachim etc. occupying “space” that implies “sides” to that space.

    #1992273
    ari-free
    Participant

    Is this referring to how some people sing the end of Alenu?

    #1992315
    refoelzeev
    Participant

    I know a Rav who was makpid to stop this tune in his shul for this reason

    #1992320

    There is also troubling singing of Hashem giving us Torah Torah at the opening of aron. Some might enjoy a hint to oral Torah, but I prefer to think of seeing Hashem’s teachings as a joint unit, so I just sing aiaiai for the second instance.

    There’s though an argument for the double. One opinion is that two tablets had ten commandments each, and they are two copies as any legal document, for both parties to keep

    #1992334
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, the Midrash says that the Torah starts with a beis over an aleph having one side open like a beis for the testimony to the omnipotent power of Hashem by saying to the haughty, if you are so great complete the forth side. This is seems to indicate that shamayim is only three sides. In SA above says four sides of ‘olam’, the world. not shamayim.

    #1992338
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This singing was eliminated in orthodox shuls in Hungary as students of the Chasam Sofer fought the reform movement.

    #1992350
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Mods, as GH has appointed me to be the CR of the CR, my first ruling would be, to write Hashem and any direct reference to Him (not kinuyim) with a captal letter as a way of respect.

    #1992459
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb E. Thanks, as always. I’ll have to think about the “3-sided”
    shamayim. The best analogy I can think of is from sailing in a fog where there was up, down and all directions morphed into the same grayness.

    #1992494
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Many Poskim allow repeating words as long as it doesn’t change meaning. I don’t see how Ushmo x 3 can be understood as 3 rashuyuos (c”v).

    #1992498
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer; you’re right conceptually, but I don’t think English gives special consideration to the term “God” above anything else that’s an honorific; proper nouns, Mr, Mrs, people’s names etc… Especially in the informal atmosphere of a message board, I don’t think there’s any pegiah in kovod shomayim if we are also not makpid on using capital letters for proper nouns… If there would be a contrast where people were careful to use the correct capitalization elsewhere and only by Hashem they weren’t, then it would be disrespectful

    #1992521
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    if in English respect is not shown in writing is a deficiency in the language and generations still as much as we can we avoid saying to the rebbi ‘you’ but speak to him in third person.

    #1992518
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AviraDeArah, we distinguish between Hashem and lehavdil an a’z by the capital letter as god is an a’z. I don’t agree. Hashem should be provided greater respect than any other proper noun.

    #1992821
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Avira, English definitely does give special consideration to the Creator; not only His Name is capitalized, but also every pronoun or other word that refers to Him (such as “Name”). That is not the case with any other subject, not even the Queen.

    And I agree with the Tana Kama, the repetition of “Shemo” is problematic, especially when followed by the declaration that these three names are in fact one. I’ve had this objection since I first heard that song more than 30 years ago, and I refuse to sing it.

    #1992829
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    So in that version of Tzur Mishelo when we say Hazan Hazan Hazan, would anyone think that is three Rashuyuos (c”v) that are feeding us? Come on. This is fruitless pilpul on steroids.

    #1992836
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In hoshiah es amecha we repeat ireim. The difference might be that words used in a song is OK to repeat but not tefila. Aleinu is a tefila as well as shema.

    #1993131
    Milhouse
    Participant

    I do have a problem with those who sing “Bay, bay ana rachitz”. Only one “bay”, please.

    #1993130
    Milhouse
    Participant

    There is no problem saying that Hashem sustains us many times, or that He pastures us many times. Of course He does. He does it several times a day, throughout our lives! Why would anyone even think that’s a problem? But it remains one Sustainer, one Shepherd.

    #1993150
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I explained in bentching the passage, umefarnes osanu etc. He sustains us every day and all the time and hour. Does this refer to multiple individuals or just one? I think it can refer to one. The food goes into to the blood stream and gets circulated by the heart which happens constantly.

    #1993198
    Avi K
    Participant

    A big problem is “注谞谞讜”. One should be careful to say the first nun without a dagesh. Also one should be careful about the ayin 讛砖诐 谞砖讘注 诇讗讘讜转讬谞讜. Pronouncing it 谞砖讘讛 is apikorsut.

    #1993218
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When saying hatov ki lo cholu rachamecha, we should make sure to stress the end of cholu meaning, Your mercy should not end and not stress tbe begining, meaning, Your mercy should not start. See SA O’CH 61,16 about nishbah meaning, to swear, and not nishbo meaning, incarcerated. Anenu, we mean answer and not afflict.

    #1993230
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Be careful not to say bal gevuros, meaning no strength but baal gevuros, the owner of strength.

    #1993581
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Also, be careful to pronounce yidemu (wth the dagesh chazak in the dalet) meaning silent and not yidmu meaning, similar, keoven like a rock.

    #1993604
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I’m a bit puzzled by the multiple admonitions to be careful in pronunciation of the ivrit in a number of specific pesukim from the teffilot as if the Ebeshter might be confused as to the meaning and intent of the words recited by the davener. Has anyone recently attended teffillot at a deep Litvish shul where the Rav and everyone else intones UUUviiinee, Malkineee, Channiineee Vaa’aniiineee…etc. I’m certain those teffilos are fully understood, attributed and accepted in Shamayim, notwithstanding their somewhat idiosyncratic pronunciations.

    #1993608
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadol….im surprised at the lack of awareness of basic halacha.

    Shulchan aruch is full of examples of how mispronunciation can be assur. You need to make a distinction between vechara Aff hashem, lest it sound like vecharaf hashem, which would be a curse chas veshalom.

    Of course Hashem “knows what we mean”, but davening is for US and affects US if we do it wrong.

    Does davening for a choleh with his mother’s name also bother you? Have you only now started philosophically pondering the omnipotence of hashem?

    #1993625
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, It is like the person who read the aleph beis by saying let Hashem put it together. When davening, we should do the best we can to accomplish its purpose even though we don’t know all the kevonus attached to tefila. If it goes through malachim without the tzibur, they might reject it before it arrivex to Hashem.

    #1993622
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, It bothers me, as I pointed out above, that Hashem be given His proper resoect by being capitalized even though other proper nouns are not.

    #1993903

    It seems that it is ok to daven in a different nusach, but one should follow that nusach correctly. Maybe there are different malachim per nusach – litvishe, taimani, etc, so you want to be accepted fully by one of them. It makes sense: you can figure out one word by knowing the person’s nusach from the rest.

    >> davening is for US

    here is an example where capitalization is used, but may be confusing. Who knew that davening can be so America-centered!? on the other hand, Hebrew has no captal letters, so I doubt that Sh’A addresses this

    #1993943
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, as in the beginning of the Sefer Chasiddim, in hebrew, we should say Hashem Yisborach as the Rosh was mesaken to say Boruch Hu Uvorich Shmo based on the passage Zecher tzadik livracha.

    #1993946
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, The MB O’CH 68 s’k 4 quotes from the Arizal not to change the nusach hatfila as each shevet has its own gate where it enters. The Pri Megodim there says not to change nuschaos for this reason. The Divreu Chaim says that sefard is a general nusach for any shevet, so it can be changed to but the Shut Chasam Sofer O’CH 15, did not agree. See Shut Shaar Ephraim 13, Teshuva Meahava 1,1 and Chavas Yair 238 about saying yotzros.

    #1994170

    RebE, yes, some teich people to follow minhag of the one who asked: “we do this, and you do this”. I am very comfortable asking such Rabbis shailohs, as I know they’ll answer according to the one who is asking. See example of R Feinstein advising someone to follow person’s Rebbe, r Soloveichik, on an issue, on which r Feinstein just signed a public letter opposing that position.

    The other shita – everyone has its gate, but their gate is bigger than other gates and open to everyone, is more problematic, as when many groups start claiming their gates … I am not even sure whether this shita has a history in Gemora or Rishonim, or should be considered a modernishe one.

    #1994178
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, sometimes we rely on emunah and we stop asking questions.

    #1994181
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ,
    诪讙谉 讗讘专讛诐 住讬诪谉 住讞 讛拽讚诪讛
    讛讗专”讬 讝”诇 诇讗 讛讬讛 讗讜诪专 驻讬讜讟讬诐 讜驻讝诪讜谞讬诐 讗诇讗 诪讛 砖住讚专讜 讛专讗砖讜谞讬诐 讻讙讜谉 讛拽诇讬专讬 砖谞转拽谞讜 注”讚 讛讗诪转, 讗诪谞诐 讛诪谞讛讙讬诐 砖谞讛讙讜 讘砖专砖讬 讛转驻诇讛 讗讬谉 诇砖谞讜转 诪诪谞讛讙 诪拽讜诪讜 讻讬 讬”讘 砖注专讬诐 讘砖诪讬诐 谞讙讚 讬”讘 砖讘讟讬诐 讜讻诇 砖讘讟 讬砖 诇讜 砖注专 讜诪谞讛讙 诇讘讚 诪讛 砖谞讝讻专 讘讙诪专讗 砖讜讛 诇讻诇 (讛讻讜讜谞讜转) 讜讝”诇 讛讙诪专讗 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 讗祝 注诇 驻讬 砖砖诇讞谞讜 诇讻诐 住讚专 讛转驻诇讜转 讗诇 转砖谞讜 诪诪谞讛讙 讗讘讜转讬讻诐 注讻”诇 讜讻”讻 讘住”讞 住讬’ 专谞”讜 讜讻转讘 砖讙诐 讛驻住讜拽讬诐 砖讗讜诪专讬诐 注诇 讛驻讬讜讟讬诐 爪专讬讱 诇谞讙谉 讻诪讜 砖诪谞讙谞讬诐 讛拽专讜讘”抓. 讜讘砖”诇 讛讗专讬讱 讘砖诐 讙讗讜谞讬诐 砖诪爪讜讛 诇讜诪专 驻讬讜讟讬诐
    讜讻砖驻讬讬讟 专”讗 讜讞讬讜转 讗砖专 讛谞讛 讜讻讜’ 诇讬讛讟讛 讗砖 住讘讬讘讜转讬讜 注讻”诇

    #1994207

    RebE, I am not sure we argue here. Maybe I was not clear. I am for people following their minhagim and singing their .驻讬讜讟讬诐 I have an opposite problem with those who say that their 13th gate can be a substitute for the 12th particular gates and inviting those from other gates, or without a gate, to go through the 13th instead of the gate of the person who asks.

    #1994206

    RebE >> sometimes we rely on emunah and we stop asking questions.

    get it. When is sometimes? and why? A git shabbos, as you might say.

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