July 15, 2021 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1991862Avi KParticipant
Is “ushmo, ushmo, ushmo echad” apikorsut? It sounds like three equals one.July 15, 2021 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1991947
This is what Jews are thinking about in 2021?July 15, 2021 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1991955
Doesn’t the halacha say not to repeat shema twice, in O’CH (61,9) and MB s’k 22, so I would say yes.July 15, 2021 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1991984🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
What are your 2021 thoughts?July 15, 2021 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1992016
It’s prefaced with the shem hashem being one, so if he’s one, his name is clearly one as well; “and his name” 2x would only imply more than one person *maybe* if not for the first part of the pasukJuly 15, 2021 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1992051
Even though Hashem has many shem kinuyim reflecting His behavior, His name y-k-v-k is one. I think this is worse than repeating shema twice which might be a request to beg for His listening.July 15, 2021 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1992059
This in contrast the prolonged “echaaadddddddddd” in the Shema (with an emphasisJuly 15, 2021 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1992067
(continued) with an emphasis on the “daled” where some hold the “D” long enough to draw a mental picture of Hashem’s malchus over all that is above, below, and the four sides of shamayimJuly 15, 2021 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1992087
GH, you mean four sides of the world as in SA O’CH (61,6) not shamayim.July 15, 2021 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1992088BenephraimParticipant
The same question may be asked on the Kedushaלכאורה when we repeat the ק word 3 times. That however comes directly from the נביא. And is explained by the תרגוםto refer to 3 dimensions. Here the intent of repetition is sing song so its a question if any of them count.July 15, 2021 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1992093
Reb E: Never to argue, C’V, with the CR of the CR, but in a metaphysical sense, wouldn’t shamayim (viewed in a 3 dimensional context) have four sides in addition to up and down. When we think of malachim etc. occupying “space” that implies “sides” to that space.July 16, 2021 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1992273ari-freeParticipant
Is this referring to how some people sing the end of Alenu?July 16, 2021 8:23 am at 8:23 am #1992315refoelzeevParticipant
I know a Rav who was makpid to stop this tune in his shul for this reasonJuly 16, 2021 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1992320
There is also troubling singing of Hashem giving us Torah Torah at the opening of aron. Some might enjoy a hint to oral Torah, but I prefer to think of seeing Hashem’s teachings as a joint unit, so I just sing aiaiai for the second instance.
There’s though an argument for the double. One opinion is that two tablets had ten commandments each, and they are two copies as any legal document, for both parties to keepJuly 16, 2021 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1992334
GH, the Midrash says that the Torah starts with a beis over an aleph having one side open like a beis for the testimony to the omnipotent power of Hashem by saying to the haughty, if you are so great complete the forth side. This is seems to indicate that shamayim is only three sides. In SA above says four sides of ‘olam’, the world. not shamayim.July 16, 2021 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1992338
This singing was eliminated in orthodox shuls in Hungary as students of the Chasam Sofer fought the reform movement.July 16, 2021 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1992350
Mods, as GH has appointed me to be the CR of the CR, my first ruling would be, to write Hashem and any direct reference to Him (not kinuyim) with a captal letter as a way of respect.July 16, 2021 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1992459
Reb E. Thanks, as always. I’ll have to think about the “3-sided”
shamayim. The best analogy I can think of is from sailing in a fog where there was up, down and all directions morphed into the same grayness.July 16, 2021 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1992494
Many Poskim allow repeating words as long as it doesn’t change meaning. I don’t see how Ushmo x 3 can be understood as 3 rashuyuos (c”v).July 16, 2021 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1992498
Reb Eliezer; you’re right conceptually, but I don’t think English gives special consideration to the term “God” above anything else that’s an honorific; proper nouns, Mr, Mrs, people’s names etc… Especially in the informal atmosphere of a message board, I don’t think there’s any pegiah in kovod shomayim if we are also not makpid on using capital letters for proper nouns… If there would be a contrast where people were careful to use the correct capitalization elsewhere and only by Hashem they weren’t, then it would be disrespectfulJuly 16, 2021 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1992521
if in English respect is not shown in writing is a deficiency in the language and generations still as much as we can we avoid saying to the rebbi ‘you’ but speak to him in third person.July 16, 2021 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1992518
AviraDeArah, we distinguish between Hashem and lehavdil an a’z by the capital letter as god is an a’z. I don’t agree. Hashem should be provided greater respect than any other proper noun.July 19, 2021 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1992821
Avira, English definitely does give special consideration to the Creator; not only His Name is capitalized, but also every pronoun or other word that refers to Him (such as “Name”). That is not the case with any other subject, not even the Queen.
And I agree with the Tana Kama, the repetition of “Shemo” is problematic, especially when followed by the declaration that these three names are in fact one. I’ve had this objection since I first heard that song more than 30 years ago, and I refuse to sing it.July 19, 2021 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1992829
So in that version of Tzur Mishelo when we say Hazan Hazan Hazan, would anyone think that is three Rashuyuos (c”v) that are feeding us? Come on. This is fruitless pilpul on steroids.July 19, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1992836
In hoshiah es amecha we repeat ireim. The difference might be that words used in a song is OK to repeat but not tefila. Aleinu is a tefila as well as shema.July 20, 2021 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1993131
I do have a problem with those who sing “Bay, bay ana rachitz”. Only one “bay”, please.July 20, 2021 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1993130
There is no problem saying that Hashem sustains us many times, or that He pastures us many times. Of course He does. He does it several times a day, throughout our lives! Why would anyone even think that’s a problem? But it remains one Sustainer, one Shepherd.July 20, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1993150
I explained in bentching the passage, umefarnes osanu etc. He sustains us every day and all the time and hour. Does this refer to multiple individuals or just one? I think it can refer to one. The food goes into to the blood stream and gets circulated by the heart which happens constantly.July 20, 2021 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1993198Avi KParticipant
A big problem is “עננו”. One should be careful to say the first nun without a dagesh. Also one should be careful about the ayin השם נשבע לאבותינו. Pronouncing it נשבה is apikorsut.July 20, 2021 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1993218
When saying hatov ki lo cholu rachamecha, we should make sure to stress the end of cholu meaning, Your mercy should not end and not stress tbe begining, meaning, Your mercy should not start. See SA O’CH 61,16 about nishbah meaning, to swear, and not nishbo meaning, incarcerated. Anenu, we mean answer and not afflict.July 20, 2021 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1993230
Be careful not to say bal gevuros, meaning no strength but baal gevuros, the owner of strength.July 21, 2021 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1993581
Also, be careful to pronounce yidemu (wth the dagesh chazak in the dalet) meaning silent and not yidmu meaning, similar, keoven like a rock.July 21, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1993604
I’m a bit puzzled by the multiple admonitions to be careful in pronunciation of the ivrit in a number of specific pesukim from the teffilot as if the Ebeshter might be confused as to the meaning and intent of the words recited by the davener. Has anyone recently attended teffillot at a deep Litvish shul where the Rav and everyone else intones UUUviiinee, Malkineee, Channiineee Vaa’aniiineee…etc. I’m certain those teffilos are fully understood, attributed and accepted in Shamayim, notwithstanding their somewhat idiosyncratic pronunciations.July 21, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1993608
Gadol….im surprised at the lack of awareness of basic halacha.
Shulchan aruch is full of examples of how mispronunciation can be assur. You need to make a distinction between vechara Aff hashem, lest it sound like vecharaf hashem, which would be a curse chas veshalom.
Of course Hashem “knows what we mean”, but davening is for US and affects US if we do it wrong.
Does davening for a choleh with his mother’s name also bother you? Have you only now started philosophically pondering the omnipotence of hashem?July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993625
GH, It is like the person who read the aleph beis by saying let Hashem put it together. When davening, we should do the best we can to accomplish its purpose even though we don’t know all the kevonus attached to tefila. If it goes through malachim without the tzibur, they might reject it before it arrivex to Hashem.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993622
Avira, It bothers me, as I pointed out above, that Hashem be given His proper resoect by being capitalized even though other proper nouns are not.July 22, 2021 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1993903
It seems that it is ok to daven in a different nusach, but one should follow that nusach correctly. Maybe there are different malachim per nusach – litvishe, taimani, etc, so you want to be accepted fully by one of them. It makes sense: you can figure out one word by knowing the person’s nusach from the rest.
>> davening is for US
here is an example where capitalization is used, but may be confusing. Who knew that davening can be so America-centered!? on the other hand, Hebrew has no captal letters, so I doubt that Sh’A addresses thisJuly 22, 2021 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1993943
AAQ, as in the beginning of the Sefer Chasiddim, in hebrew, we should say Hashem Yisborach as the Rosh was mesaken to say Boruch Hu Uvorich Shmo based on the passage Zecher tzadik livracha.July 22, 2021 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1993946
AAQ, The MB O’CH 68 s’k 4 quotes from the Arizal not to change the nusach hatfila as each shevet has its own gate where it enters. The Pri Megodim there says not to change nuschaos for this reason. The Divreu Chaim says that sefard is a general nusach for any shevet, so it can be changed to but the Shut Chasam Sofer O’CH 15, did not agree. See Shut Shaar Ephraim 13, Teshuva Meahava 1,1 and Chavas Yair 238 about saying yotzros.July 23, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1994170
RebE, yes, some teich people to follow minhag of the one who asked: “we do this, and you do this”. I am very comfortable asking such Rabbis shailohs, as I know they’ll answer according to the one who is asking. See example of R Feinstein advising someone to follow person’s Rebbe, r Soloveichik, on an issue, on which r Feinstein just signed a public letter opposing that position.
The other shita – everyone has its gate, but their gate is bigger than other gates and open to everyone, is more problematic, as when many groups start claiming their gates … I am not even sure whether this shita has a history in Gemora or Rishonim, or should be considered a modernishe one.July 23, 2021 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1994178
AAQ, sometimes we rely on emunah and we stop asking questions.July 23, 2021 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1994181
מגן אברהם סימן סח הקדמה
האר”י ז”ל לא היה אומר פיוטים ופזמונים אלא מה שסדרו הראשונים כגון הקלירי שנתקנו ע”ד האמת, אמנם המנהגים שנהגו בשרשי התפלה אין לשנות ממנהג מקומו כי י”ב שערים בשמים נגד י”ב שבטים וכל שבט יש לו שער ומנהג לבד מה שנזכר בגמרא שוה לכל (הכוונות) וז”ל הגמרא ירושלמי אף על פי ששלחנו לכם סדר התפלות אל תשנו ממנהג אבותיכם עכ”ל וכ”כ בס”ח סי’ רנ”ו וכתב שגם הפסוקים שאומרים על הפיוטים צריך לנגן כמו שמנגנים הקרוב”ץ. ובש”ל האריך בשם גאונים שמצוה לומר פיוטים
וכשפייט ר”א וחיות אשר הנה וכו’ ליהטה אש סביבותיו עכ”לJuly 23, 2021 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1994207
RebE, I am not sure we argue here. Maybe I was not clear. I am for people following their minhagim and singing their .פיוטים I have an opposite problem with those who say that their 13th gate can be a substitute for the 12th particular gates and inviting those from other gates, or without a gate, to go through the 13th instead of the gate of the person who asks.July 23, 2021 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1994206
RebE >> sometimes we rely on emunah and we stop asking questions.
get it. When is sometimes? and why? A git shabbos, as you might say.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.