There Is No Eruv In Flatbush / Marine Park!

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  • #618592

    Francorachel3
    Participant

    For those still using the so-called eiruv, beware! You’re being Mechalel Shabbos! There have been ads put out by Rabbonim saying no one is supervising it or overseeing it at all. And there is absolutely no justification to use it!

     

    #1188282

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wasn’t their two purported eiruvs, one highly contested from 50 years ago by the MO community and a second highly contested one built about 16 years ago that is similar to the one in BP?

    #1188283

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Looks like Rabbi A A Spitzer Z”L was right. What will happen after Rabbi Katz – Szerdahelyer Rav? Who will superwise the Boro Park eiruv? There should be an inter-congregational committee formed to take care of the eiruv.

    #1188284

    Avi K
    Participant

    A gentile told his Jewish neighbor that he rested completely on Shabbat. The Jew commented that a gentile is not allowed to keep Shabbat. “Don’t worry. I carry my siddur to shul”. “But there is an eruv”. “You hold by that eruv?”

    #1188285

    flatbusher
    Member

    What is the source of this info on the eruv?

    #1188286

    YW Moderator-105
    Participant

    The question I always want to ask people when I see them carrying is “Do you know where the eruv ends” I have never seen a map or a sign saying eruv ends here

    #1188287

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What is the source of this info on the eruv?

    Probably more important to ask who supervises/oversees it.

    #1188288

    Working on it
    Participant

    First of all, you have no right calling people mechalel shabbos when you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Not only is the eruv kosher but it is inspected every week. If you would like more information I would be happy to provide the contact information for my Rabbi who deals with the eruv every week.

    Lets stop this “holier than thou” attitude – you aren’t. If you don’t hold by the eruv – then don’t, but stop condemning others who have valid sources on which to rely.

    #1188289

    Working on it
    Participant

    Moderator 105:

    The eruv goes from ave U at Flatbush ave to Flatbush and ave R, down ave R to gerritsen and back down Gerritsen to ave U

    #1188290

    flatbusher
    Member

    I believe the Vaad of Flatbush was responsible in the past. I never held by the eruv but am curious why this came up now.

    #1188291

    YW Moderator-105
    Participant

    I see the borders of the eruv that u posted. What does that mean for the rest of Marine Park? Kings Highway till Ave R, From Nostrand till Flatbush?

    Which eruv is that included in?

    #1188292

    Working on it
    Participant

    I am told that the Flatbush Eruv as well as the Sephardic Eruv overlap the Marine Park Eruv and extend down past Gerritsen and North past Ave R. As I said earlier, if you PM me I would be glad to provide my Rabbi’s number and he has far more detailed information about this topic.

    #1188293

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Vaad of Flatbush used to run the old eruv. Do they still? The new eruv was supervised by a rabbi in Monsey.

    #1188294

    mik5
    Participant

    Google it. The web site is erub dot org. The map is there. The rabbinical endorsements are there. Everything is there.

    #1188295

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    According to R’ Moshe’s psak that Brooklyn is a reshus harabim d’oraisa, all these eruvim are not allowed to be relied on.

    #1188296

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    mik5: I just checked out the website you mentioned and unfortunately it is not “all there”. While the Map of the eruv of the Sephardic community is posted, it has nothing on the eruv that is being mentioned about Marine Park.

    #1188297

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Google it. The web site is erub dot org. The map is there. The rabbinical endorsements are there. Everything is there.”

    With one exception, who takes responsibility for the weekly checking? Is it the Sephardic Rabbinic Council?

    #1592555

    1
    Participant

    Is it an issur kareis or דרבנן? Would uou use it on Yom Kippur?

    #1592573

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I have never seen a map or a sign saying eruv ends here”
    You’re referring specifically to Brooklyn or all eruvim? Queens has such signs.

    Working on It: Would you tell Reb Moshe he has no idea what he’s talking about? The gaavah of the open orthodoxy knows no bounds.

    #1592574

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I don’t use it on יום כיפור, and Kal Vachomer not on שבת.

    #1592588

    GAON
    Participant

    “s it an issur kareis or דרבנן? ”

    As per Shulcah Aruch Harav (364) Avnei Nezer and others, once there is a Tzuras HaPesach it is only a rabanon, in any case…

    #1592587

    GAON
    Participant

    iacisrmma

    Rav Moshe does agree that there are shitos and rabbanim etc that you cannot be mocheh.

    However, according to many, the facts are that there are three Mechtizos surrounding Brooklyn, as most seawalls are built up with gates etc.

    Also, there are psokim and poskim that were relied upon prior to Rav Moshe, like the Eruv in Warsaw which had more then 600K inhabitants.

    #1592613

    apushatayid
    Participant

    how did this get ressurrected?

    #1592957

    Joseph
    Participant

    “how did this get ressurrected?”

    By someone posting to this thread.

    #1593554

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Mod 105- I lived in Flatbush in the 70’s. The borders of the eruv were not marked because self styled vigilantes were vandalizing them. I didn’t use it because the Rav of my shul paskened against using it, but I disagreed with the vandals.

    #1593594

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I am still not sure why this thread from almost 2 years ago was bumped but I wrote what was explained to me by Rabbi Hillel David. He also told me that unlike Warsaw, R’ Moshe was told that the population in Brooklyn was over 3 million people (this was the estimate in 1979) and he held that it was possible that 1/5 th of the population was in the streets at all times and therefore was a reshuffling harabim doraiso.

    #1593563

    Genya
    Participant

    Kudos to the Yidden who use these Eiruv’s!

    #1593622

    Joseph
    Participant

    And would a changing population figure over the years for Brooklyn effectively change what the psak holds whether an eiruv is permitted?

    #1593620

    GAON
    Participant

    Iac,
    Sorry, i didnt realize that it is indeed from 2 yrs ago. But regarding the warsaw eruv, I’m aware of the diff as it is explained in Igros Vol 8.
    However, that is Rav Moshe’s explanation according to his shitah that 600k is defined by applying the entire city or area. On that account he came up with a brilliant calculation of 1/5 etc. But that does not seembto be as the very reason why the “rabanim and dayanim really permitted it..

    #1593621

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: The US Census issues very accurate population figures for Brooklyn and every individual zip code within Brooklyn. Were the estimates used for the psak in line with the US Census figures?

    #1593662

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    joseph: as was explained to me R’ Moshe included both the legal residents and the illegal aliens in the population count hence the need for an estimate of the illegal alien count.

    #1593688

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: The US Census includes illegal aliens in their population figures for any area. Does your response indicate that the psak added a figure in its population assumption above the US Census figure? Because the Census figure already included all residents, legal or not. Thus adding an assumption above the Census would result in an inaccurate over-estimate.

    #1593818

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: this is what was told to me 35+ years ago during the initial controversy. Besides the census figures of residents counted by the census, an estimate of people living in Brooklyn who were not counted bu the census. Remember the last census prior to the eiruv question was in 1970; the eruv question was in 1978 so they to account for people who moved to Brooklyn (legally and illegally) after 1970.

    #1593821

    thinker123
    Participant

    Joseph, Reb moshe says that there three million people in boro park, thats obviously something someone …… told him, and not a census.

    #1593826

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    I don’t plan on using the eiruv on Chol Hamo’ed

    #1593882

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac/thinker: The US Census updates its figures periodically more than its full enumeration decennial count. Every couple years or so they provide an updated count to account for the changes since the last full census. These counts also include both legal residents and illegal aliens.

    Even without considering the Census’ ACS mid-decade updates, you can look at both the 1970 and 1980 decennial census’ to see if the estimates numbers align with those from the office census (which includes all residents, including illegals.)

    Furthermore, regarding changes to Brooklyn’s population from 1980 through today in 2018, wouldn’t those population changes potentially affect the psak since the psak is determined based on population?

    #1593907

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “wouldn’t those population changes potentially affect the psak since the psak is determined based on population?”

    Probably. But, hasn’t the population grown? Allegedly, Brooklyn has over 2 million residents now.

    #1593937

    GAON
    Participant

    Thinker,
    I think R Moshe is referring to that bp is within the י”ב מיל consisting of 2 mil. Not bp within itself.

    #1593926

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Dovid Feinstein is B’H alive and well. Why doesnt someone ask him if over the last 40 years anything has changed that would change the psak his father gave.

    #1594549

    joseph: as with other pesak halachos of R’ Moshe, things might change based on the current circumstances. Maybe R’ Dovid or R’ Reuvain would be able to answer this question.

    #1594856

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    No one will be matir it on the account of the census currently being less by a small amount. As it might be off and it might go up by the next year etc. You can not base it on that only fact. Even the ones that backed the eruv in BP etc did not use that heter alone.

    However, what did change is that they verified the validity of Brooklyn (or BP) being surrounded with over 3 Mechitzos Bnei Adam, which according to most poskim renders one as a Reshus haYachid deOraisa and permits an eruv.

    #1594269

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Apushatayid…i am surprised at you. Dont you know how this “system” works by now? Have you not been around the block a few times already?

    In case you dont know, this is how it works: everyone will give you “their” version of what Rav Dovid shlita said. You will NEVER know what Rav Dovid shlita in fact said.

    #1594286

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Francorachel13. Am i permitted to call your post utter nonsense and representing the highest form of stupidity only one day after yom kippur?

    #1594883

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Queens has a very similar population and makeup to Brooklyn and has major streets going through it (Queens Blvd and the Long Island Expressway), yet Queens has Eruv’s that are not challenged. Its not just the KGH Eruv, there are Eruvs in a good chunk of Queens Like Forest Hills, Hillcrest , Briarwood and in fact there are Eruvs and connections from Forest Hills to the Nassau Border (About 10 Miles)

    #1594900

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,

    Isn’t there a Teshuvah in Igros regarding the KG Eruv?

    #1594906

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Where’s the Nassau border?

    Also, can anyone tell me what’s up with seemingly frum people crossing the Van Wick while carrying on Shabbos? Are they all just cases of being “spoiled by the eruv” and they don’t know better?

    #1594908

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Only KGH, not the rest of Queens and Forest Hills has Queens Blvd, Nor do I know if the Tshivah includes crossing the Long Island Expressway which there is an Eruv that does cross the Long Island Expressway

    #1594943

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,

    But what does RM say what is the heter based upon?
    I don’t think RM had an issue with LIE, rather it is the area of 2 Mil. inhabitants with 12 MIL.

    #1594973

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Population of Brooklyn 2.6 Million

    Population of Queens 2.4 Million

    Not much difference and the Populations of the 2 have been similar for a while

    The boundry between Queens and Brookyn is really just an artificial boundry,

    #1594994

    GAON
    Participant

    “The boundry between Queens and Brooklyn is really just an artificial boundary,”

    Agreed! I still have no clue who came up with that idea..

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