There Is No Eruv In Flatbush / Marine Park!

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  • #1594991

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think it’s based in the way they’re partitioned. If there were no barrier between KGH and downtown Flushing (Mandarin Town) then I presume there probably wouldn’t be an eruv in KGH because it would be considered one town with well over 600k people. My understanding is that the LIE is essential in allowing there to be an eruv in KGH.

    The boarders between Flatbush and surrounding neighborhoods have no physical barriers like highways; they’re just random, so they might all get counted as 1. As for the non-KGH Queens eruvim, I would imagine some of them are actually contested, but I admit I haven’t heard so either. It’s definitely always worth asking about before relying on one.

    #1595113

    student
    Participant

    Both the Flatbush and Marine Park eruvim are checked weekly. An announcement goes out before each Shabbos as to whether they are operational that Shabbos. For questions about the Flatbush eruv you can contact Rabbi Auman, and for questions about the Marine Park eruv, contact the rav of Merkaz Yisroel Marine Park Jewish Center.

    If you do not choose to hold by these eruvim, that is your choice. However, you do not have the right to tell anyone else which Rav to hold by. If my Rav, to whom I turn to for all my sheilos, says the eruv is kosher, then that is how I hold. Its not YOUR decision to make for me. It’s between me, my Rav and Hashem.

    #1595102

    thinker123
    Participant

    Gaon
    It seems to me that you know you’re stuff, (unlike so many others) so you must have seen the teshuvah were Reb Moshe wrote that כל שטח לחוד has ס”ר (meaning acording to his shitah 3 million).

    #1595078

    GAON
    Participant

    Nev,

    So why can’t train tracks or any highway be a barrier to separate…how do you define a barrier? is there a shiur how wide etc..?

    #1595017

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is an eruv from KGH to NY Presbyterian Queens Hospital that crosses the LIE

    There are no barriers between KGH and Hillcrest (Just Random) and no Barriers between Hillcrest and Hollis Hills again Random and there are Eruvs between them

    #1595144

    GAON
    Participant

    Thinker,

    If I remember correct, It seems from Rav Moshe that he’s implying to say that a צורת הפתח can serve as a barrier, hence why cities with over 600k had eruvin, as the very area of the Eruv did not include 600k.

    So if the eruv i.e. tuzuras hapesech would surround any area with less than 600k, it will be permitted, as we will not be applyingg the rest of the city.

    #1595137

    not yeshivish
    Participant

    if u dont use the eiruv fine but dont be mezalzel people who do and yell and call them mechalel shabbos or a sarcastic greeting of good yom tov

    #1595138

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Forest Hills Eruv crosses Queens Blvd

    #1595215

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    R’ Moshe held Queens is different then Brooklyn as the neighborhoods are clearly defined as recognized by the US Postal Service. When you address a letter to a Queens address it is not to Queens NY but to an individual neighborhood (i.e. Forest Hills, Flushing) whereas you address a letter to Brooklyn, NY (not Flatbush or Boro Park.

    #1595219

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: Where does Rav Moshe ever make that distinction that you’ve just described?

    #1595243

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I could be wrong here, but I think there is also the Halacha that if a street is bigger in one area than another, Its still a problem where the street is smaller , this is the problem with Route 9 in Lakewood, further north, Route 9 is a highway , but its not as big in lakewood itself and I think there is a problem crossing route 9

    Main St in The Main Part of Flushing is a very congested area, but its alot smaller in Kew Gardens Hills, but its still the same Main St.

    The Van Wyck Expressway also goes through Kew gardens Hills

    #1595246

    laskern
    Participant

    A discussion of an eruv consideration see Yabia Omer O”CH 9:33.

    #1595252

    GAON
    Participant

    iac,

    Sorry, there is no such psak. nor does it make sense, as per Rav Moshes defining the parameters of 600K and a city, regarding Eruvin. If there is nothing separating one from the other it is considered one city and one entity regarding eruvin.

    Perhaps we should differentiate by County or State. Where do you draw the line?

    I did see regarding Brooklyn and Manhattan that we treat them as separate entities, being that the river separates them.

    #1595253

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, Where do you find Reb Moshe shita that you count the 600,000 for the whole city and not for one street even if you figure a platyeh godalyeh there is no park in Brooklyn with that many people?

    #1595255

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: I heard it from Harav Hillel David when the same question was asked in 1979. I do not know if R’ Moshe wrote it or it was just an oral explanation.

    #1595322

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I know, lets bicker, name call, make up things rav moshe said, or didnt say, make up things those who argued with him did or didnt say and not rely on ones own rav for halachic guidance, and certaily dont fargin someone else to do the same.

    #1595307

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a big argument whether Ocean Parkway is a reshus horabim min hatorah, if cars are counted with people or it is a separate reshus, houses around, intersecting roads or traffic lights diminish the reshus for pelatyeh gedolyeh.

    #1595381

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Queens Blvd is just as big as Ocean Parkway (Maybe even bigger) and there is a Subway underneath it as well and elevated train tracks 1 block away

    #1595449

    Milhouse
    Participant

    It wouldn’t matter if Ocean Parkway were a rh”r mid’oraisa, since the new eruvin that were put up about fifteen years ago include delosos that close off Ocean Parkway at Ave Y. These are closed from time to time.

    #1595509

    GAON
    Participant

    Mill,

    So how does delosos on Ave Y cover all of O.PKWY?

    #1595508

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    You are confusing the two types of reshus harabim, פלטיא. Vs מבואות/סרטיא . They are treated differently regarding on how to define their reshus harabim, according to many.

    In any case, rav moshe holds that 600k is defined by the habitants of the city, and that is how you have a platye.
    Also, there are some that hold that there is really no such status of platye nowadays.
    The orginal platye was an open market place type that was hefeker and was on the street open to all..

    Regarding Ocean pkwy, I don’t think it has 600k passerby in a single day, as per the census.

    Also, correct there are shitos that the 600k need to be עוברי רגל and thus cars are not applicable. This is the psak of the Bes Efraim (1:26 at the end, Yeshuos Malko of Kutno and the Marhasham

    #1595531

    1
    Participant

    How come no rebbe makes an official statement that the Flatbush eruv is kosher? There was a kol kore written by many gedolim, not too long ago,that it’s not a good eruv?

    #1595545

    kvetcher
    Participant

    Most people who carry in eiruvin will at best make a scant inquiry as to “is there an eiruv?”. Then they carry whatever they want, whenever they want and wherever they want. No questions about the Rav Hamachshir and no questions about how often it’s checked, etc.
    The end result is gross Chillul Shabbos and an entire generation not knowing what the melacha of “Hotza’ah” is, at all.

    #1595540

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, Yasher Koach for clarifying.

    #1595647

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Kvetcher, nice generalization and smear

    #1595646

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I don’t remember you being in the room when Reb Hillel David told this to me. As you may know, not every psak made it to the igros Moshe. Just because you never heard it doesn’t mean an oral interpretation was not given. As an example it doesn’t state in the Igros Moshe that a vegetable peeler can be used on Shabbos but Reb S.B. Cohen in his sefer the Shabbos kitchen page 104 quotes R’ Reuvain that his father held it is a knife. We do know that not every psak is written in the igros Moshe. Rabbi Ribiat says the same thing in his footnote that he has heard that R Moshe says you can use the peeler but it is not in the Igros Moshe.

    #1595538

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    The answer to the question is very simple. The chassidish oilom has not yet taken hold and a firm grip in Flatbush. Therefore, no rebbes wielding much power thus far in Flatbush. However there may come a day when chassidishe come in large numbers and displace the litwaks. That day shall come.

    #1595542

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “So why can’t train tracks or any highway be a barrier to separate…how do you define a barrier? is there a shiur how wide etc..?”

    I have no idea. I really don’t know what defines a barrier; I just do what the posek hador says.

    “How come no rebbe makes an official statement that the Flatbush eruv is kosher? There was a kol kore written by many gedolim, not too long ago,that it’s not a good eruv?”

    I’m not sure how much of this thread you’ve read over, but it’s pretty well-known that Reb Moshe ruled it assur. If you want to be a respected Rabbi in the frum community, you probably don’t want to go arguing on Reb Moshe without really good reason.

    #1595601

    torah613ami
    Participant

    Last I heard, there’s a Young Israel and a Sephardic eiruv in
    in Flatbush and possibly Marine Park.

    #1595626

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am probably the last person to ask on this, but I dont think its really the Melecha of Hotaza, I think the issue is if Brooklyn (and Queens) are Carmeles not Richus Harabin) I dont think you can make an eruv from Harabin , but only from a Karmales.

    As far as the Kol Korea, that probably means very little to most people in Flatbush,

    #1595642

    puttinginmy2cents
    Participant

    a. Rav Moshe ZT”L stated in his teshuva that there are rabbonim that are matir the eruv and that he is a daaqs yochid.
    b. To all those who yell and scream about others who use the eruv: Do you use a Shabbos clock? Rav Moshe was against them, and his grandchildren do not use them.

    #1596006

    GAON
    Participant

    “The end result is gross Chillul Shabbos and an entire generation not knowing what the melacha of “Hotza’ah” is, at all.”

    Interesting, how come we don’t tayne that very argument regarding each and every eruv in any Israeli town.

    Also interesting is how every Pre war town in Europe had or tempted to erect an eruv, and as per many response’ written at that era, most held that the very existence of an Eruv ‘prevents’ chillul shabbos (see Chasasam sofer responsum 1:89) Not the other way around. (Unless the eruv is against halacha, it is the duty of the people and tge Rav to provide one..)

    #1596430

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Gaon, I don’t understand your question. Delosos, by definition, are put up only at the end of the road, at the entrance to the city. So the delosos on Ave Y close off Ocean Parkway; what more could you want?

    #1596494

    youdontsay
    Participant

    iacisrmma:
    “R’ Moshe held Queens is different then Brooklyn as the neighborhoods are clearly defined as recognized by the US Postal Service. When you address a letter to a Queens address it is not to Queens NY but to an individual neighborhood (i.e. Forest Hills, Flushing) whereas you address a letter to Brooklyn, NY (not Flatbush or Boro Park.”
    “Joseph: I heard it from Harav Hillel David when the same question was asked in 1979. I do not know if R’ Moshe wrote it or it was just an oral explanation.”
    “Gaon: I don’t remember you being in the room when Reb Hillel David told this to me. As you may know, not every psak made it to the igros Moshe. Just because you never heard it doesn’t mean an oral interpretation was not given.”

    You see an oral explanation cannot be in direct contradiction to a written teshuvah. The fact is Rav Moshe maintained that an eruv cannot be erected in any part of an area of 12 mil by 12 mil containing a population of approximately 3 million. Therefore, it is irrelevant (based on Rav Moshe’s teshuvos) if an area encompassing such a population consisted of individual neighborhoods, since an eruv cannot be erected in any part of this area. Sorry, Rav Moshe could not have made such a distinction.

    #1596495

    youdontsay
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin:
    “I think it’s based in the way they’re partitioned. If there were no barrier between KGH and downtown Flushing (Mandarin Town) then I presume there probably wouldn’t be an eruv in KGH because it would be considered one town with well over 600k people. My understanding is that the LIE is essential in allowing there to be an eruv in KGH. The boarders between Flatbush and surrounding neighborhoods have no physical barriers like highways; they’re just random, so they might all get counted as 1.”

    Rav Moshe never made the distinction of the LIE, and it is irrelevant according to his shitos in eruvin.

    #1596496

    youdontsay
    Participant

    laskern:t
    “There is a big argument whether Ocean Parkway is a reshus horabim min hatorah, if cars are counted with people or it is a separate reshus, houses around, intersecting roads or traffic lights diminish the reshus for pelatyeh gedolyeh.”

    Ocean Parkway is not mentioned once in Igros Moshe. It simply never factors in Rav Moshe’s chidushim in eruvin.
    However, Rav Moshe does count cars (although most poskim maintain otherwise). I don’t know what you mean regarding platya, Ocean Parkway is definitely not a platya, maybe its a sratya. In any case, Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos on three sides.

    #1596517

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    It is astounding as to how this entire issue has developed. We have people who were not even born when Rav Moshe ztl was alive quoting him and making statements in his name, etc. etc.

    Where is your sense of kovod hatorah and kovod talmidei chachomim that you have the gall to quote Rav Moshes as if you knew him!!!!!! you are on thin ice.

    This has perhaps become one of the most silliest conversations ever on YWN and i find it an oxymoron that this site is called YESHIVA World News. Because these individuals wear bALCK HATS AND BLACK SUITS all day long is the most glorious falsification of what they think they represent. Nobody on this website is classified to be capable of speaking in place or for Rav Moshe ztl.

    #1596802

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Talmidchochom:
    People here quote gedolim all the time. Would you get this upset at people over quoting Rashi/Tosfos even though we didn’t “know them?”

    We have other threads here also where we discuss out favorite beers and such. Perhaps you’d have a better time on those if you find the idea of bringing proofs from poskim so offensive.

    I have no idea which side of this debate you’re on or if you’ve even posted here yet; this is too big to keep all the names straight. But, your premise that people shouldn’t be allowed to quote a posek unless they knew him personally is absurd. You made no mention to whom you believe misrepresented Reb Moshe, but I presume your quote is a reaction to someone who brought a proof that didn’t jive with your shittah on this matter. Grow up, and bring a real counter proof.

    #1596827

    youdontsay
    Participant

    Talmidchochom:
    “It is astounding as to how this entire issue has developed. We have people who were not even born when Rav Moshe ztl was alive quoting him and making statements in his name, etc. etc.
    Where is your sense of kovod hatorah and kovod talmidei chachomim that you have the gall to quote Rav Moshes as if you knew him!!!!!! you are on thin ice.”

    These arguments always leave me wondering what is the purpose of these diatribes. I believe that there is an underlying issue. (I would argue that it stems from an inability of yeshivaleit to pasken, hence the inability to realize halachic precedent.)

    In any case, according to your argument, one can never quote a posek who is not alive (or maybe this principle only applies to Rav Moshe). Don’t you realize the absurdity of you arguments.

    #1596936

    shimen
    Participant

    puttinginmy2cents sept 23, 3 30 pm
    igros moshe(dont remember off hand which chelek) ohr chaim simen 60
    shabbos clock for lights, air conditioner mutter… but not for me coffee,gorge forman, etc etc zelise d’shabbos…

    #1596940

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shimen: Rav Moshe writes that you can’t use Shabbos clocks for an air conditioner.

    #1596954

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If a legitimate Rav Poskins than an Eruv is Kosher, then there is no Chillul Shabbos even if most do not hold by it

    #1596965

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: What if a legitimate posek mistakenly paskens that a piece of chazer is kosher meat, can/will you eat it?

    #1596967

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    youdontsay: Yes I understand R’ Moshe’s psak regarding 3 million people in a 12 mil by 12 mil area. That is why the question was asked in 1979 as to why should Queens and Brooklyn be treated differently. Brooklyn has approximately 69.5 mi of land area and Queens has 108.2 mi. Total population in Queens was slightly less than Brooklyn. So why was the entire Brooklyn used cover a 12 mil by 12 mil area but Queens not? I heard from Rav Hillel David the response I gave above as he conferred numerous times with R’ Moshe as he is now and was then one of the noted poskim in Flatbush during the eruv controversy in the late seventies. You don’t want to believe it, fine. I know what I heard from him.

    #1597013

    laskern
    Participant

    Reb Joseph, the two are not the same, see O”CH 428 when it comes to admonish on something specifically asur biblically like chazir compared to an eruv where most hold that currently their is no R”H biblically. So by eruv where a reliable rav says you can carry I think you can listen to him.

    #1597015

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: Where do you see Rav Moshe ever write that Queens is any different than Brooklyn, insofar as the Halacha l’maaisa on eiruven are concerned?

    #1597051

    youdontsay
    Participant

    Joseph:
    “iac: Where do you see Rav Moshe ever write that Queens is any different than Brooklyn, insofar as the Halacha l’maaisa on eiruven are concerned?”

    See Igros Moshe O.C. 4:86, and addendum to 4:89.

    #1597033

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: As I have said a number of times I HEARD it from Rabbi Hillel David in R’ Moshe’s name back in 1979.

    #1597049

    youdontsay
    Participant

    iacisrmma:
    “youdontsay: Yes I understand R’ Moshe’s psak regarding 3 million people in a 12 mil by 12 mil area. That is why the question was asked in 1979 as to why should Queens and Brooklyn be treated differently. Brooklyn has approximately 69.5 mi of land area and Queens has 108.2 mi. Total population in Queens was slightly less than Brooklyn. So why was the entire Brooklyn used cover a 12 mil by 12 mil area but Queens not? I heard from Rav Hillel David the response I gave above as he conferred numerous times with R’ Moshe as he is now and was then one of the noted poskim in Flatbush during the eruv controversy in the late seventies. You don’t want to believe it, fine. I know what I heard from him.”

    Brooklyn is smaller than twelve mil by twelve mil, and Rav Moshe stated this clearly in his teshuvos:
    (Igros Moshe, 4:87).

    ולכן בברוקלין שהוא עיר אחת מלאה אוכלוסין אבל אפשר שהיא יותר מי”ב מיל על י”ב מיל

    And then Rav Moshe’s final teshuvah on the matter (ibid., 4:88):

    ונמצא שכל ברוקלין הוא רק י”ב מיל על י”ב וקצת יותר

    Brooklyn is over sixty-nine square miles (without its inland water, which I think should also be included in the tally and would make it even larger). Twelve mil by twelve mil is sixty-four square miles (according to Rav Moshe’s shiur amah in regards to hilchos Shabbos). However, after Rav Moshe was informed that the area that Brooklyn encompasses is greater than twelve mil by twelve mil, he argued that an eruv should not be established, because some may think that since it was a heavily populated area it was a reshus harabbim (in essence a gezeirah, — shema yitu; see ibid., 4:88, and see also 5:29 where he argues that even Detroit could be problematic because of this gezeirah).

    However, the end of the story was, that Rav Moshe was led to believe that besides for a population of close to three million, over a million people come into the borough to work (ibid., the end of 4:88). Therefore, he argued that Brooklyn is osser l’dinah. (These facts were made up out of whole cloth by people who simply did not want an eruv and were willing to tell tale tales to Rav Moshe in order to achieve their goals.)

    Consequentially, the issue with the Queens eruv is, why didn’t Rav Moshe object at least because of his gezeirah. Queens is also a heavily populated area (no less than Detroit).

    The only answer that follows all of Rav Moshe’s teshuvos is:
    While Rav Moshe maintained that if an area of twelve mil by twelve mil is classified [or thought of] as a reshus harabbim, an eruv cannot be erected in any part of that area; nevertheless, we see that he allowed eruvin for Kew Garden Hills, Queens (ibid., 4:86); Oak Park and Southfield, Detroit (ibid., 5:29); and the Jewish quarters in Europe (ibid., 5:28:5) which he would have otherwise objected to. The reason Rav Moshe allowed for a neighborhood of these large cities to be demarcated with an eruv was because they contained less than shishim ribo. However, regarding Boro Park and Flatbush Rav Moshe was led to believe that independently they contained populations greater than shishim ribo; therefore, an eruv could not demarcate these Brooklyn neighborhoods (ibid., 5:28:5 and Addendum to O.C. 4:89). There is no other rational reason why Rav Moshe argued that both Boro Park and Flatbush contain more than shishim ribo if not that this was the defining motive to allow a city to be divided with a tzuras hapesach.

    As to why some argue excuses in the name of Rav Moshe that don’t follow his teshvos, I would say they don’t know his teshuvos that well. However, to claim that these arguments are Rav Moshe’s is simply not true, and definitely not possible, since Rav Moshe wrote otherwise.

    #1597063

    Joseph
    Participant

    Queens is not much smaller than Brooklyn in either geographic size or in population.

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