August 2, 2017 7:58 am at 7:58 am #1330552
Jared Kushner said the obvious, that there’s no man-made solution to the never-ending Israel conflict, and some folks are gasping that he said it out loud.August 2, 2017 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1331091👑RebYidd23Participant
Status quo is not the best, but it’s not a total disaster. And it all depends on acting as if there is some simple solution that will be found eventually.August 2, 2017 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1331114
Status quo is constant terror with Jewish civilians and Israeli uniformed personnel being killed every year. Status quo is having a war about every 10 years or so that has a high cost of Jewish lives.
That’s a disaster.August 2, 2017 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1331123👑RebYidd23Participant
It could be worse.August 2, 2017 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1331167yytzParticipant
There is no solution, and that is a good thing! The only “solution” policymakers are willing to discuss at the moment is the two-state solution, which is completely unacceptable, since it would involve the permanent ethnic cleansing of Jews from a large swath of our historic homeland.
Eventually, a solution will come. (For example, Jordan could be overthrown by Palestinians, who are 80% of the population, and then go to war with Israel and lose, with PA Arabs fleeing to Jordan or Egypt to escape the violence of the conflict.) Only Hashem knows when.
Other than the Second Intifada, the amount of lives lost from terrorism has been minimal. Even including terrorism, the Israeli murder rate is less than that of the US. Their life expectancy is higher, traffic fatality rate is lower, intermarriage rate is many times lower, suicide rate is lower, etc. Overall, it is a better place for Jews to live. Wars with large numbers of casualties have not occurred for decades.August 2, 2017 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1331178
Minimal?! Even one Jewish life lost is not “minimal”. Let alone a constant stream of lost Jewish lives. I don’t care whether it is terror or the wars Israel repeatedly gets into to. Neither are minimal.
Regardless of any comparisons to the US rate that includes drug dealer and inner city black on black crime, both of which are irrelevant to the loss of *any* Jewish lives.
If giving up the State would save even one Jewish life we should give the State up in a flash. Jewish lives come first.August 3, 2017 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1331232Avi KParticipant
Joseph, the Torah assumes that a normal person will fight for what is his. That is why there is the din of haba b’machteret.
Really the best solution all around is to establish an international resettlement fund to help Arabs emigrate to countries that need immigrants (Germany, for example, still has nearly 700K unfilled jobs). Polls have consistently shown that most as many as 68% in
Judea- Samaria and 80% in Gaza would leave if they could (BTW, one can now take various American exams world-wide by computer – and there is a center in Ramallah). However, it would probably take a major upheaval to get the international community to do it – although some Israeli pols are starting to talk about it..August 3, 2017 6:07 am at 6:07 am #1331254PosterGirlParticipant
At least he is realistic and not blaming the Israelis or the ‘settlements’.August 3, 2017 6:07 am at 6:07 am #1331260RichardMParticipant
At last! Someone with a voice stating the bleedin’ obvious. No wonder his shver values him.
Question is: what happens in the Middle East now?August 3, 2017 6:11 am at 6:11 am #1331240NeutiquamErroParticipant
Let’s be brutally honest. Any change to the status quo is so difficult as to be unworkable. A two state solution is impossible as long as there remains a strong possibility that a Palestinian state would vote in Hamas. And the Israelis have a vested interest in keeping the status quo too, as they are too beholden to the West to unilaterally exert sovereignty over the West Bank, and even were that not the case, they can’t annex it due to demographic concerns. But neither can they simply withdraw from the West Bank, as a Palestinian state would cause obvious and massive security issues, and besides they have nationalist reasons not to withdraw. Basically, Israel wants the West Bank/Judea and Samaria but can’t have it properly for numerous reasons. And it’s no use pointing out that the Palestinians are an invented people, because the movement is sufficiently advanced that wishing it away is a futile exercise. And of course they couldn’t deport them away, and anyway shouldn’t.
So for anything to change, attitudes on both sides would have to shift, with obviously the Palestinian commitment to violence being by far the biggest contributing factor. With the situation as it is, the only partial possible solution that might work, if only a good few years down the line, is a confederacy of some sort. This means the two populations remain distinct enough to manage security and demographic concerns, whilst allowing Israel to retain control over security and secure its settlements, and the Palestinians get come measure of civic rights and local, workable government.
I know this view will anger some, so I would like to clarify this is just what I consider a fair partial summation of the barriers to peace. So it’s not what I want to happen, but what could happen.August 3, 2017 10:05 am at 10:05 am #1331390ubiquitinParticipant
I couldnt agree more. I have been saying the same for years.
The only thing that worries me is how long can the status quo go on. 10 years? 50?
Especially given world opinion shifting more and more against Israel.
Plus there is a corroding effect that ruling over millions of hostile people has. while necessary given the reality and that ther eis no alternative it is still morally corrosive.
I recently saw an Israeli documentary “the Gatekeepers” it is an interview with 6 former heads of shabak. I highly recommend it It was absolutely excellent and is related to this last point, which while it might make some uncomfortable is still an important pointAugust 3, 2017 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1331470akupermaParticipant
The only solution would, to a modern Orthodox such as Kushner, be an example of the cure being worse than the disease. Once the Jewish community of Eretz Yisrael is dominated by hareidim (ignoring that this would collapse the economy, which is based on the seculars), peace would be obtainable. Hareidim (think Satmar, or Yolish Krauss, not those who are hareidi only in terms of lifestyle but are part and parcel of the zionist movement especially in terms of schnorring from them) are content to be left alone and feel no need to rule over the goyim. If hareidim come to control Eretz Yisrael, they can agree to being an autonomous minority in an Arab Islamic state. The war began when the Arabs realized that the zionists were taking over the Yishuv from the haredim, and wanted political control – which will always be unacceptable to Arab Muslims. Give up the desire to rule over other peoples, and the war is very endable. A totally hareidi community is non-threatening to the Arabs and can live in peace with the goyim, albeit as second class citizens – though to the modern Orthodox having to become hareidi and give up the perqs of a modern lifestyle is a worse case scenario.August 3, 2017 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1331472yytzParticipant
Avi K, resettlement is a nice idea, though I think it would have to be done by private parties rather than the government to work in the near future. I like the Jordanian solution, by which all Palestinians in the territories would get Jordanian citizenship and could vote or move there, but could still stay in Israel to work, while all of the Judea/Shomron is annexed. There are many possible ideas, and we just have to wait until one is possible. The two-state solution will never happen (more than it already has — the PA and the Gaza Hamas government are basically state-like, but fortunately are ineffective and have no real legitimacy.)
It is ultimately OK if the status quo lasts for a few more decades, since by then the demography will be so much in our favor (due to charedi birthrates) we could just annex everything all make all Palestinians citizens and we would still have a 70-80% Jewish majority.
Joseph, gun violence certainly results in deaths of Jews as well; I can certainly think of examples even recently. Traffic fatalities are much higher here, and that’s definitely not limited to inner-city people — instead, it’s people with long commutes (like many Jews who live in the suburbs). With all the long commuting and rates of drunk driving America is a very dangerous place. One is probably several times more likely to be killed in America due to traffic fatalities (or die early due to the sedentary American lifestyle and unhealthy diet) than to die by terrorism in Israel. Also, many Jews were killed on 9/11, which would not have happened if they had been in Israel.August 3, 2017 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1331477RealisticguyParticipant
there is no solution is right…the only solution is when G-d decides that enough is enough and we go to all out war…anyone who believes that either side would be willing to have total peace does not understand the belief system of us or them. the reason the Palestinians are still where they are is because the other Arab countries refuse to take them in because if they did then they would all leave and the Israelis would have total control. as for the giving up land for peace thought that is one of the biggest debates put there and one major push why we don’t is because we are forbidden to give up land in eretz Israel for anything….bottomline there will never be peace between Arabs and Jews only periods of time where it may seem peaceful while the Arabs are looking for an opportunity to attack……the Jordanian politician said it a few days ago…if jihad was allowed by Jordan right now they would stomp on Israel…meaning there is no real peace just a waiting game, real peace is when both sides (?) have no interest is hurting the other.
EditedAugust 3, 2017 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1331514Naftush-2Participant
But of course there’s a solution. With each passing year, Israel grows in population, wealth, and cohesion. Yeah, I said cohesion. Everyone in Israel is Israeli today, including chareidim and, for the most part, Arabs. Now look at the other side: “nations” crumbling so badly that one can only conclude that they weren’t nations to begin with. A generation ago, the country faced real armies. Today, it faces terrorists who cry “we’ve won” whenever they succeed in claiming one victim r”l. It reminds me of the transition from the defeat at Horma to the victory over the Canaanite (Amalekite?) king in which the enemy managed to take one prisoner. מאת ד’ היתה זאת and it should be נפלאת בעינינו
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