Things we managed to live without

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  • #1852329
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    When I was a teen someone once told me that there is a huge difference between need and want.
    I think with Covid 19 we learned there was a lot of things we saw that we managed without, I am not diminishing the pain of loss of parnosah by those whos life’s are affected, I was just thinking of the stuff that we thought as a must have and we managed fine without it,
    1. Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts
    2. Peasch programs
    3. High end Chol Hamoed trips
    4. Eating out the week before Peasch
    5.Cleaning help before peasch
    6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov
    7. Massive yurtzit tours, [ lizensk keristur etc.]
    8. New high end clothing because no one would see it anyway
    9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel
    10. Meron on Lagbomer
    These are just a few items of the top of my head

    #1852364
    Joseph
    Participant

    Excellent list, coomonsechel. On target and absolutely correct.

    #1852380
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Eating out the week before Peasch“

    What are you talking about? We got take out!

    #1852409
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    1. MAGA rallies….instead we have the Trumpkopf’s daily WH “Task Force Briefings” where he does the same circus show but with no live audience..
    2. Asifahs for yidden to avoid the internet which now, even many frum mosdos have adopted for “distance learning”, and providing critical public health and life-saving information to the tzibur.
    3. Double and triple parking on 13th Avenue and nearby shuls, and simcha halls
    4. The Yellow Flag guys on Eastern Parkway
    5. Uncle Moishey

    #1852420
    unommin
    Participant

    Oh, yes. We’re just living in Gan Eden now. As the world economy collapses around us, bread lines get longer, oil goes negative, unemployment spikes, death surrounds us. Sure, and just six weeks ago the United States under President Trump was leading all-time human levels for prosperity. Yeah, this is Gan Eden. Pity that we’re so shallow that we need a “wake-up call” like this because we cannot just behave like normal people, maintain lives of value, materialism in balance, spirituality appropriate, without a massive lurch toward totalitarianism. Thanks for that lesson.

    #1852422
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    My children ka’h 36 and 34 now, grew up on Uncle Moishey.

    #1852423

    1. Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts
    2. Peasch programs (N/A)
    3. High end Chol Hamoed trips (N/A)
    4. Eating out the week before Peasch (N/A)
    5.Cleaning help before peasch (N/A)
    6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov (N/A) but i did miss my einiklach
    7. Massive yurtzit tours, [ lizensk keristur etc.] (N/A)
    8. New high end clothing because no one would see it anyway (N/A)
    9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel (N/A)
    10. Meron on Lagbomer (N/A)

    I didn’t need the Covid outbreak for most pf this list. Ok maybe i am guilty on item 1.

    #1852425
    catch yourself
    Participant

    I absolutely agree with the main point of the OP.

    But I think it’s necessary to point out that the fact that we are still alive without having done things quite the way we are accustomed to does not, by definition, mean that we “managed to live without.”

    The true meaning of your post is that we should learn from current experience to recalibrate our value system.

    For example, nobody who at least pretends to be an Orthodox Jew would add Tefila B’tzibur, Tefila B’veis Hakneses, Kerias HaTorah, Birkas Kohanim, or Tefilas Tal to this list. We all understand that there is a tremendous cost to the fact that we unfortunately find ourselves without these things.

    #1852487
    catch yourself
    Participant

    unommin –

    The OP did not assert that the current crises happened “to teach us this lesson,” or in any way arrogate to himself (herself?) the ability to discern Hashem’s reason for it. All it said was that there is a particular lesson which we, through hard experience (which the OP specifically acknowledged and did not minimize), have learned. Your bitterness is certainly understandable, but there is no reason to lash out at commonsaychel (in my opinion). The OP did not claim that we are now “living in Gan Eden.” The point (I think) was only that a thinking person should utilize the opportunity for growth, and specified one particular facet of how this experience could engender that growth.

    I have seen some posts which carry the undertone that the current crisis would not be “worth it” if its objective was the lesson in the OP of this thread (Of course, nobody wrote that in so many words, but it’s there all the same, in between the lines). This idea, to my mind, is disturbing.

    Many Rabanim have expressed the opinion that the idea that we (as a society, and in the case of many, perhaps most, individuals) have become so entrenched in our materialistic lifestyles that we “cannot just behave like normal people, maintain lives of value, materialism in balance, spirituality appropriate,” represents a dereliction of our duty to live as Torah-Jews which recalls the behavior of the 80% who did not leave Mitzrayim. Suppose that this upheaval would serve to restore us to the proper relationship with Hashem and His Torah, preserving our chance at Geulah. Would it not then be worthwhile?

    #1852488
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Lowertution: it was not applicable to all including myself on all of the above items, it was just somethings that I happen be thinking about that people got use to having and thought they cant manage without and they managed. This list was not all encompassing, feel free to add things that you think of,
    PS I missed my eniclech tremendously over yom tov, but life went on.

    #1852489
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Alot of thing for Pesach were done differently than normal, Normally people are very Machmir for Pesach for cleaning and kashering, Because many people made pesach for the first time or the first time in a long time, Many were told of the Mekail position. Many people probably learning that “Chumras: damaged pesach and pesach without them was much more plesant

    #1852535
    yehudayona
    Participant

    HASC had an online Uncle Moishy performance, I think on the Sunday before Pesach.

    #1852538

    “it was not applicable to all including myself on all of the above items, it was just somethings that I happen be thinking about that people got use to having and thought they cant manage without and they managed”

    Do we know they actually managed? Have you actually interviewed anyone who goes away for pesach if they actually managed?

    #1852572
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Things I cannot do without: Having the family in the same room for the sedorim…..cannot imagine ever again having to do a seder by ourselves.

    #1852592
    KGN
    Participant

    We haven’t hit Lag B’omer. Who knows? The משיח could come before the 33rd count of the Omer, and we could all be in Israel.

    #1852601
    Joseph
    Participant

    lot112: How do you suppose people managed without Pesach getaway hotels before they existed?

    #1852603
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Lower T, yes I spoke to quite a few friends and neighbors who normaly go away to a program for pesach and yes they all managed,
    Godal: I was heartbroken without my married kids and grandkids but it was something I wanted not needed, I don’t want to ever have that again but I managed

    #1852632
    unommin
    Participant

    @catchyourself –

    The frum people who work in the following industries are delighted that Rabbonim speak out against what they do for parnassa, that Rabbonim write against what they do for parnassa, and constantly denigrate people who take the opportunity to enjoy the things that they do for parnassa:

    1. Frum people who own catering halls or are caterers, providers of accouterments (flowers, music, etc.) (Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts)
    2. Frum people who are travel agents or own restaurants, catering centers, or transportation (Peasch programs)
    3. Ditto (Chol Hamoed trips)
    4. Frum owners of restaurants, caterers, grocery stores with carry-out and delivery services (Eating out the week before Peasch)
    5. Frum people who provide cleaning services (Cleaning help before pesach)
    8. Frum people who sell clothing, high or low end, top or low shelf, or anything in between – and we know there are plenty of them from high-end stores to basement outfits (New high end clothing)
    9. Even though most were already in Israel and now come home – frum people who run yeshivos EVERYWHERE (Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel)
    10. Frum travel, hotels, transportation, catering, etc. (Meron on Lagbomer)

    All of these people, above, are very glad that you don’t care about how they earn a legal, ethical, moral, responsible living and are glad that we can live WITHOUT THEM OR THEIR SERVICES to us. Because we’re just so much holier (than thou) WITHOUT THEM.

    Yes, I’m starting to understand your point of view.

    #1852690
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I am still a teen, so very little changed for me personally. Mentally though, it is quite trying to contemplate what my community and country (both) are being hit with. catch- I would add shuls and yeshivos to my list. I have been studying and davening without all the nonesense that is brought in to our holy houses. kgn- Why do we assume that if Moshiach comes, there is no more virus? According to the Rambam, I am living in the times of Moshiach, I could daven and study Torah all day. But, oh, yeah, it is a very very painful and serious time. I think that is the message of today for the individual. May we all be able to be able to study Torah together with peace and without worry.

    #1852744
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @unommin
    Read what I wrote
    “I am not diminishing the pain of loss of parnosah by those whos life’s are affected, “

    #1852945
    catch yourself
    Participant

    unommin

    Your vitriol deserves no response.

    I will say only that suffering through a very difficult situation (which we all are, although it is certainly possible that you are more severely affected than most) understandably can make a person upset and even bitter. It does not excuse many of the things you have said.

    I think you would benefit from some counseling. Many communities have organizations which can arrange for this, free of charge.

    #1853014

    Joseph: irrelevant to this discussion. Maybe I’ll ask some of my parents friends about that.

    #1853065
    Joseph
    Participant

    lot112: Of course it is relevant. It clearly demonstrates that Pesach getaway hotels can be done without. Just as before they existed or before they become a thing so many people did.

    #1853198
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    This thread is a bit silly

    Of course we COULD do without many things. doesnt neccesairly mean we should. Most of us went at least some time without any minyan. I dont think anyone would suggest” Wow we managed without minyan I guess we could do without it”
    Similarly i’m a bit lost why because we survived without “Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov” is trying to add. I mean sure we survived without but a. did anyone really think otherwise and b. so what ?

    “The frum people who work in the following industries are delighted that Rabbonim speak out against what they do for parnassa,”

    This is easily one of the strangest things posted on this forum
    If people waste money on something silly. It doesn’t make it ok just becasue some frum people are making a parnassa out of some silliness. And if it isnt waste then it isnt. If you think 10,000 people (or however many it is ) traveling to lizhensk is a good thing say so, and perhaps explain why. but if it is a waste of money, it doesn’t become good because someone makes a buck of the silliness

    #1853216
    AvrahamMoshe
    Participant

    You are 100000% right @commonsaychel
    Hashem Made a virus and killed thosands of yidden,bnei tourah,askanim,tzadikim and rabeim,so we live without things.
    Especially, Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts,How dare us show us Kavod and respect to Hakadosh baruch hu,for giving us such a simcha
    6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov-SO EVERYONE has a Simchas Yomtov give nachas to Parents and Grandparents,WOW HASHEM gave a Magefa so that WE dont go to parents for yomtov?
    ISnt that the mitzva of the seder Passing over the meseroah no mr @commonsaychel decided that is horrible
    9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel-Limud Hatora,there is 2 isseues to this first Limud HAtorah-do you have an issue with people learning sencond there is a mitzvah every daled amos in eretz yiroel

    #1853215
    AvrahamMoshe
    Participant

    You are 100000% right @commonsaychel
    Hashem Made a virus and killed thosands of yidden,bnei tourah,askanim,tzadikim and rabeim,so we live without things.
    Especially, Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts,How dare us show us Kavod and respect to Hakadosh baruch hu,for giving us such a simcha
    6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov-SO EVERYONE has a Simchas Yomtov give nachas to Parents and Grandparents,WOW HASHEM gave a Magefa so that WE dont go to parents for yomtov?
    ISnt that the mitzva of the seder Passing over the meseroah no mr @commonsaychel decided that is horrible
    9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel-Limud Hatora,there is 2 isseues to this first Limud HAtorah-do you have an issue with people learning sencond there is a mitzvah every daled amos in eretz yiroel

    #1853231
    Milhouse
    Participant

    All of these are good things if you can afford them. The problem is not that people do them, but that people who cant’ afford them feel they have to, that they can’t do without them. Now we’ve all learned how to do without certain luxuries that we never imagined we could. When this is over, those who can afford those luxuries will probably resume them, but those who can’t, and only indulged because they couldn’t imagine any other way, will now be able to reconsider them.

    And even those who can afford everything may have surprised themselves with how little they missed some things. Maybe next year some people will choose to make their own Pesach, with guests, because now they know they can do it. Maybe they went away every year, not because they really wanted to, but because they were afraid of trying to do it themselves. Now they know it’s not so scary, they may do it again.

    #1853239
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ Avraham Moshe, boy that virus must be getting to you that you resorted to this.
    In reference to #6 I think is a wonderful mesorah and I missed my kids and grandkids, but I MANAGED, It was something I LOVED having not something I NEEED, people said they NEED to go to MOMMY and they found out that they are capable of making Y.T for themselves.
    #9. Mir and Chachmay Lublin learned in Japan and Shanghai during the war, people can learn anywhere including NY NJ, the going to EY to learn started big time about 20 or so years ago and it became a rite of passage, now we see people can manage without that rite of passage and the 1000s that go with it

    #1853240
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq and avrahammoshe,

    I couldn’t have said it better myself

    #1853261
    AvrahamMoshe
    Participant

    @commonsaychel i Agree but at the end of the day does it make a diffrence,like who cares if someone wants to go to there mommy,let them.is anything in life really a need besides a house bread and water,we can live without grocery shopping,and getting it delivered instead but let people grocery shop,is it really a big deal,
    Also i dislike ppl saying Hashems reasons for the magefa no one knows so unless someone has daas torah what diffrence does it make

    #1853266
    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: How are all of those things good for people who can afford them?

    #1853271
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Everything on the list is inherently a good thing. Some of them are mitzvos, some are huge conveniences, they all make life more pleasant. That makes them good. But not everyone can afford every good thing. Those of us who cannot afford something should not pretend that we wouldn’t want them. That is what we call in English “sour grapes”, from Aesop’s story, the Fox and the Grapes. Rather let us be honest and admit that we would like those things, but we have higher priorities for our limited resources, and let us be happy for those who either have more resources than us, or whose priorities are different from ours.

    #1853276
    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: Are you arguing that ostentatiousness is a good thing or that the concept of ostentatious doesn’t exist or that nothing on the list can be defined as ostentatious?

    #1853309
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Avrom Moshe, I never said this is the reason why we have the mahagyfa, I merely wrote that thing that we said we could never manage without and we ended up managing without, take for example lack of cleaning help because the cleaning ladies didn’t show or we didn’t want to get exposed, what did we do? we all pitched in a little extra and deferred the spring cleaning. Not going to Peasch programs, Lisensk or Keristur, we rolled back the clock 25 years and managed.
    I happen to be 100% in agreement with you about person who claim they know hashems reasons I would take it to the next level and say it borders on being a kofer, the last novi we had was 2000 years back.
    PS read Millhouse’s comment if you need clarification of the intent

    #1853508
    Ayiddishekup
    Participant

    When you hear people who say they would rather go into debt to make a fancy wedding you would understand the value of seeing that a cheaper alternative can work. So yes corona virus is very sad but maybe some good lesson can be taken from the situation.

    #1853501
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Joseph, none of these things are ostentation, they are things that are genuinely useful and make people happy. Most people would do most of them, if they could. For each item there are some people who don’t want it, and wouldn’t get it even if it were free, but I think most people would enjoy it if it were in their price range.

    #1853597
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I think the list should include any chol hamoed trips. And going to our kids for Yom Tov. That is for everyone else.
    For myself I have another list.
    1.Shuls.
    2.Yeshivos.
    3.Chavrusa Tumul.
    4. Bar mitzvos.
    5. Sheva Berachos.
    6. Fund Raising Events.
    7. Yom Kippur Kattan.
    8. BeHa”B.
    9. Traffic and Commuting.
    10. Motzai Pesach Chometz.

    #1853631
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    nOmesorah, you thought that these were things that you could not manage without or just things that changed?

    #1853895
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    common – I totally hear what you are saying about want vs need. I do agree as well that in the want category there are some things that are gashmiyusdik wants that are to serve us, and some ruchniyus wants that are good for us, such as having family over and owning new clothes for yuntif (that are affordable etc). I don’t think you are refuting this, I’m just throwing it out there.

    When people talk about managing tho, I don’t think managing is the question. When our power went out for two days (1999) in single digit weather, my family (including a newborn) ‘managed’. We sat under blankets and read books etc. But the question isn’t about managing, the question is – did it bring you closer to Hashem? Did it give you an opportunity to grow in ruchniyus? Did it give you time/perspective/pause/opportunity to learn that Hashem runs the world and we need to let go and stop trying to fix things and control the world around us. We managed before washing machines, we managed before fax machines, but we didn’t manage before antibiotics. Managing is surviving. I don’t think Hashem wants to see if we can “manage” without our “stuff”. I think (heard this from many recent shiurim) that the question here is what do we need to bring us closer to Hashem? What do we need to take ourselves up a notch in our observance? What do we need to strengthen our emunah and bitachon? And what do we just need because it enhances our existence personally (like ice coffee or sudokus) or allows us to enhance someone elses (yummy treats for the kids, flowers)?

    Instead of pondering wants vs needs, I think it should be pondering things we want that are good for us (will bring us closer to Hashem) vs things we want that are not good for us (relationships with people who don’t watch their words) and also things we need to bring us closer to our tafkid/tikun/Borei Olam.

    #1854132
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Milhouse-I think your attitude is what underlying a generation or two of people missing the point. It is not good for our generation as a whole to follow a shallow lifestyle not based on ruchniyus. We are on this planet to get closer to Hashem. If you have $ and use it for things other than that goal you are missing out on the purpose of your existence. Just because an action has a loose relationship to Judaism does not mean that it is being in order to serve G-d and to get closer to Him or to bring your fellow Jew closer to Him.

    Do people spend gobs of $ on simchos as a way to serve G-d? What is the effect it has on the rest of the community?

    Do people go to hotels on pesach bec. they are better able to tap into the real meaning of the holiday there?

    The OP is correct and those who miss the opportunity to learn from the magefa are the losers. A pandemic is a terrible thing to waste.

    #1854142
    Milhouse
    Participant

    CTR, and others who think like this, how does it make you a better person to begrudge someone else his innocent pleasures? If someone has been given enough money, why shouldn’t he enjoy it? Why shouldn’t he have the things that he can afford? What else is money for? What I’m hearing is a very bad midah, sour grapes, and the inability to be happy for someone else. Worrying about how to get closer to Hashem is for each individual about himself, not about someone else. It is not your business how or whether someone else is getting closer to Hashem. On that you are not an oreiv. I forget who said it, but yenem’s gashmius should be your ruchniyus. Veyam’it hano’osov, not yenem’s hano’os.

    #1854228
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    My responses were not getting through. So, things that changed. I’m fine.

    #1854239
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Milhouse it has zero to do with if can or cant afford the said items or closeness to hashem or lack thereof, its the fact the people were saying “we cant manage without” for example but the multi millionaire and the guy who felt the need to credit card debt to go found out they managed very nicely without it.
    The woman managed without cleaning ladies regardless if you were the real estate tycoons wife, the truck driver wife or the shuls rov wife.
    No one went to lesensk regardless what income bracket your in or how much it help you get closer to hashem.
    Bottom line, we managed.

    #1854518
    lopman24
    Participant

    Barbers. Bought a haircut set did a 3 on the sides and a 4 for the top on all the kiddos saved over 50 dollars. I was moychel the tip.

    #1854519
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Common, we “managed” the way that one can, if necessary, “manage” Pesach without matzos and wine, the way one can “manage” without talis and tefillin, the way someone who is not a vegetarian can nevertheless “manage” shabbos without meat, if he has to. There are a lot of things we can “manage” without; that is no reason to do without them if they are available and affordable.

    Some people may find that some things they thought they needed were in fact unnecessary, and may continue to do without them even after this is over. But that is not the general case.

    #1854557
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Millhouse
    very well said

    #1854579
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I disagree, the norm up to 25 years ago a one man band and a singer was not socially acceptable now its very much the norm, for the foreseeable future [next 6 months or longer] social distancing will be the norm and big wedding not longer be the norm with a possible perminate change.
    I am sure the attendance at the peasch program will not be the same as last year for many years to come.
    Crowded chol hamoed venues wont be the same at least for the near term,
    Just a few examples of how things changed

    #1855185
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Milhouse,
    I “managed Shabbos without meat many times”. That is how I discovered what Shabbos is about. Let everyone enjoy their dream wedding. They have my pity. Because learning the Torah’s idea of marriage, is a far greater joy than marrige itself.

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