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  • #601146

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Unfortunately, this past week some very bad news came out of two Modern Orthodox schools. TABC in Teaneck and the JEC in Elizabeth both sent out a letter to parents stating that a former female teacher was involved in some inappropriate physical contact with a high school student. The teacher had been at the JEC, left to go to TABC, then quit that school also. I wonder why?

    The letters told parents that it had occurred, and said the police were immediately notified.

    This was a terrible thing, of course, but let’s have some good come of it – let’s show how to handle these situations. Calling the police immediately, and admitting that it happened, without any cover-up. The JEC’s letter even had the direct contact number of the police officer handling the case, and told parents that if they had any information, they should call him directly.

    This is how these cases should be handled. No sweeping under the rug. Telling parents what’s going on, and how it’s being handled. Let’s all learn from Rav Teitz shlita and the way he’s dealing with this.

    #836349

    Calling the police should always be number 1….

    #836350

    miritchka
    Member

    hear, hear!

    #836351

    TheGoq
    Participant

    +1 Feif, everything out in the open no more protecting the predators and punishing the victims.

    #836352

    aries2756
    Participant

    Kol Hakovod to Rav Teitz.

    #836353

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See Mommy! See how Daddy gives me a lolly pop when he takes me shopping! Daddy is such a better parent than you!

    That is what you all sound like. A bunch of 2 year olds deciding you know better than your parents.

    Not even like teenagers. Teenagers at least have some knowledge of the subject matter. Two year olds.

    Get a life.

    #836354

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Kol hakavod for the way that situation was handled.

    #836355

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Popa: “Get a life.”

    I did. I ordered one. 3-5 business days..

    #836356

    nitpicker
    Participant

    not all situations are the same.

    because of the current climate they had no choice but to call police but it’s not always the right thing to do when you do have a choice. I agree that often the police were not called when they should have been.

    #836357

    kapusta
    Participant

    Lol, ZK.

    *kapusta*

    #836358

    Pop , What are you so irked about? The school acted appropriately, having established raglayim l’davar. The Agudah’s position that only rabonim are quailfied to determine raglayim l’davar is fatally flawed. One, because most rabanim who are not in chinuch do not have the training, experience or insight to make an informed decision, two, mandated reporters generally do have the required knowledge, experience and insight, and three, raglayim l’davar is not a concept that is too technical for lay people to determine. Raglayim is simply reasonable suspicion and the mandated reporters in general, are simply better qualified to recognize signs of abuse than your rav, rebbe or rosh hayeshiva.

    #836359

    soliek
    Member

    no actually i agree with popa…(gosh i havent said that in a while) whether or not the right course of action was taken, this thread is objectionable because of its tone

    #836360

    Health
    Participant

    So they did something right – big deal. Because my kid wasn’t accepted in some MO school in Elizabeth, he/she is now in public school. They probably did it for PR, not because they care about the Torah!

    #836361

    soliek
    Member

    im about to completely hijack this thread…but Health, if youre ranting about lshem shamayim and stuff then why did you make the choice for your kid that it was MO school or bust?

    #836362

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: That’s one of the worst logical fallacies I ever heard. Because some MO school rejected your kid then every other MO school can’t possibly care about the Torah?

    #836364

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I don’t think Health was being serious.

    #836365

    soliek
    Member

    *whew* butliekyea…it was a poor example to choose, not to mention a straw man…of course thats assuming it isnt true, if it IS true then my question stands

    #836366

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Raphael Kaufman-

    And you k ow better then the rabbinm and rosh yeshiva? In essence your saying that they don’t know what their talking about and you, a nameless person writing on a blog knows better what the halocha is.

    Well your wrong, and at least I have e right to say so because I’m echoing the views of known rabunnim.

    #836367

    MCP
    Member

    I do think the police should be brought in, provided that they have sufficient proof.

    Let’s be clear here though – I guarantee you that the kid sees himself (assuming it was a he and not a special needs child, and the teacher was not repulsive looking) as more a hero than a victim. It is not nearly as bad as when a Rebbi does it.

    #836368

    soliek
    Member

    MCP i was gonna say something like that but i didnt think it would get through 😛

    #836369

    cantgetit
    Member

    MCP – she is an eishes ish, so it’s actually much worse than the other type of situation.

    #836370

    MCP
    Member

    Do we know that for sure? Besides, Eishes Ish, from a halachic standpoint, is transgressed only in an extreme circumstance – for all we know, this teacher “touched” a student inappropriately, but did not cross the line to qualify as Eishes Ish.

    Obviously, I think what she did was very wrong, but the emotional scarring is much worse when the perp is of the same gender as the victim.

    #836371

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    MCP – “And, if indeed there would be injustice or bullying going on here then it would, in fact, be everyone’s duty to dispute it. In the past, you expressed a view to the contrary, but I cannot fathom it.”

    I think it depends on the ages. Male perps are pretty scary to little girls too. (not arguing, just adding)

    #836372

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Agudah’s position that only rabonim are quailfied to determine raglayim l’davar is fatally flawed. One, because most rabanim who are not in chinuch do not have the training, experience or insight to make an informed decision, two, mandated reporters generally do have the required knowledge, experience and insight, and three, raglayim l’davar is not a concept that is too technical for lay people to determine.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Assuming, for purposes of this discussion, that you care about following halacha.

    The question of when you can be moser someone is a halacha shaila. Of course, anyone can decide how an action fits into halacha by themselves (I do so every time I decide what bracha to make on a food), but people who care about halacha will consult with a halachic expert when they don’t know the halacha well enough to decide.

    I personally don’t know these halachos well enough to decide. I don’t think you do either. I don’t think the administration of a school generally does either. Frankly, I have no idea what “raglaim l’davar” even means. (And, as I recall, most posters who seem to be such experts now, were complaining about just that- that they didn’t know what it meant- when it was first promulgated.)

    And even if you arrogantly think you can decide it, maybe you should have just a tad of concern that you might be getting it wrong, before you go and ruin someone’s life and family.

    (But soliek is correct- the thing that got me going here is the tone of this thread.)

    #836373

    gregaaron
    Member

    @Poppa:

    +1

    It’s become the “in vogue” thing to say, “Straight to the cops! Forward…March!!” And, in some cases, that may be what the halacha will dictate that we should do. But the Torah tells us what the parameters are, not so-called “advocate” blogs. Speaking as a survivor of the abuse being discussed here, I feel comfortable with the fact that my abuser is no longer in a position in which he can harm others – and just as happy that he is NOT in jail, because that’s what da’as Torah said should happen. And this is with someone who actually did the act – as much “raglayim l’davar” as there can possibly be – kal v’chomer with those who are being accused by one person 25 years after the fact.

    #836374

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Feif: I apologize for going ape on you. I usually like what you say.

    And I even agree with you, this is an example of exactly the way it should be done. Ask the rabbi, then go public. Police, prosecutors, the whole thing.

    Looking back at your post, I’m not even sure you meant to imply what I was criticizing. So, sorry about that, if you didn’t.

    #836375

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Oelbaum gave a shiur, Limaaseh, to the Queens community almost 1 year ago. Listen to it on Torahanytime.com

    #836376

    soliek
    Member

    “and just as happy that he is NOT in jail,”

    and the fact that he is very likely to do it again doesnt bother you in the slightest? or is that the next guys problem…

    #836377

    gregaaron
    Member

    @Soleik:

    The guy is over 70 and has no access to kids. Trust me, enough people know about him that it won’t be an issue.

    #836378

    Health
    Participant

    soliek -“if youre ranting about lshem shamayim and stuff then why did you make the choice for your kid that it was MO school or bust?”

    How old are you? Are you still a kid?

    Like I had a choice?!?!

    #836379

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: That’s one of the worst logical fallacies I ever heard. Because some MO school rejected your kid then every other MO school can’t possibly care about the Torah?”

    You call it a fallacy -maybe you should read the OP’s post before you post!

    I was talking about a MO school in Elizabeth run by the JEC, not necessarily JEC!

    #836380

    Health
    Participant

    Feif Un -“Proud MO” – There is nothing to be proud of!

    “I don’t think Health was being serious.”

    And you think it’s only the Frum Yeshivos who protect molesters are the ones in denial?

    You’re in DENIAL big time!

    #836381

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: Once again, even if one “MO” school acted like that it’s still fallacious to assume that all “MO” schools don’t act Lesheim Shamayim.

    #836382

    mommamia22
    Participant

    Health

    I understand your feelings, as I know several people this happened to. One of those is a neighbor who wanted his child to go to one particular yeshiva because of it’s amazing reputation. When she wasn’t accepted, the parents became very defensive and angry with the school. It never dawned on them that after depriving her of a yeshiva education for years, she lacked even the most basic skills to enter the school at the appropriate grade level. They would not consider sending her to another yeshiva that caters to kids at her educational level. They were not interested first and foremost in A yeshiva. They were interested in THAT yeshiva. Presumably, they did not know better.

    I also know of two people who were in yeshiva and at different ages were “kicked out” because of lack of academic ability. Both these people wound up in public school. One stayed frum, married frum, and raised a wonderful family, the other literally went off the derech and married out, blaming the school for HIS choices in life. B’derech sheadam rotzeh leilech, boh molochin osoh. The choices that matter are the choices you make today. They both had reasons to be angry. Maybe the schools needed to help them find more appropriate placements (my opinion). Maybe they wouldn’t have accepted it.

    A school doesn’t have to accept every child just because they are a yeshiva. They should be mentchlech and help link them to places that are a better fit.

    I think what the school did was truly commendable. Sending out letters to all the families allows parents to explore with their kids if they were ever victimized and to seek help and support.

    #836383

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Health: I beg to differ. IMO, being MO is something to be proud of.

    I think you’re filled with hate. Try reading the Iggeres HaRamban. It’s supposed to help people deal with anger and hate issues. I highly recommend it.

    #836384

    soliek
    Member

    “Because my kid wasn’t accepted in some MO school in Elizabeth, he/she is now in public school.”

    k’lomar: it was the MO school in Elizabeth or bust. am i misinterpreting that?

    #836385

    aries2756
    Participant

    gregaaron, do you honestly believe that because a perp is over 70 that would make a difference? Do you have factual knowledge that this guy is being watched and monitored 24/7 to be sure he has no access to kids? What about his own grandkids, great-grandkids? Nieces, nephews, great-nephews? Neighbors, shul kids, mikveh????????????????????????????????????????????

    If you are truly a victim and not a trol I am happy for you that you are able to get on with your life. But I for one don’t believe that he cannot hurt anyone any longer.

    #836386

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: Once again, even if one “MO” school acted like that it’s still fallacious to assume that all “MO” schools don’t act Lesheim Shamayim.”

    Once again -I never said all! I was talking about a specific one!

    #836387

    Health
    Participant

    mommamia22 – You are a young women -I’d assume your knowledge of Halacha is not that great. Also you seem to have been brainwashed that the system can’t ever do anything wrong.

    “I also know of two people who were in yeshiva and at different ages were “kicked out” because of lack of academic ability. Both these people wound up in public school.”

    If this is actually the case or like in my case, (and since the school didn’t get them in elsewhere), this one of the worst Aveiros a person or an org. can do! Pushing someone off the Derech with your Yadayim is very bad.

    “the other literally went off the derech and married out, blaming the school for HIS choices in life. B’derech sheadam rotzeh leilech, boh molochin osoh. The choices that matter are the choices you make today.”

    To blame the victim for not remaining Frum when they were forced to go to Public School is a total lack of Ahavas Yisroel! Nowadays there are so many who go OTD from the situation they experienced in Yeshivas and you expect s/o to remain Frum after having had to go to public school?!?!

    “I think what the school did was truly commendable. Sending out letters to all the families allows parents to explore with their kids if they were ever victimized and to seek help and support.”

    Acc. to your way of thinking -why should the Yeshivas’ care if they have a molester amongst them? So they were molested in school -so what’s going to happen? The victims will go OTD -they will commit suicide -so what does this have to do with the school? -YOU decided that e/o is responsible for their own CHOICES! So the victim’s bad choices are their own fault -why blame the school?

    Obviously, I don’t agree with this warped, sick way of thinking and Yeshivos have to do what the Torah wants first. You can’t Not accept a child or throw one out if they will end up in public school and you can’t protect molesters! The job of the Yeshiva is to create Bnei Torah and Not to destroy these precious Neshamos!

    #836388

    Health
    Participant

    soliek -“k’lomar: it was the MO school in Elizabeth or bust. am i misinterpreting that?”

    It was the last possible option before P.S. Why do you keep making these types of questions? You think I could have stopped this and didn’t?

    #836389

    Health
    Participant

    Feif Un -“I think you’re filled with hate. Try reading the Iggeres HaRamban. It’s supposed to help people deal with anger and hate issues. I highly recommend it.”

    Actually you are the one filled with hate towards all Yeshivishe people! You come here gloating how great the MO school is and how great they handled the problem of their molester. That the Non -MO yeshivos should learn from them.

    “This is how these cases should be handled. No sweeping under the rug. Telling parents what’s going on, and how it’s being handled. Let’s all learn from Rav Teitz shlita and the way he’s dealing with this.”

    And the point of my post was the MO school should learn from regular Yeshivos whom most know if it is a choice of them or P.S. they will accept the kid!

    Just like something so simple how to handle molesters -there is also something very simple of how Not to push kids into P.S.!

    #836390

    aries2756
    Participant

    Feif & Health, there is no doubt about it there are a lot of things wrong with the system. You can’t measure the system by its successes. You have to measure the current system by its failures.

    #836391

    soliek
    Member

    “You think I could have stopped this and didn’t?”

    really want me to answer that?

    #836392

    Health
    Participant

    Aries – +2

    #836393

    Health
    Participant

    soliek -“really want me to answer that?”

    Please tell us – what you really think? Your insinuation is more of a reflection on you than on me!

    #836394

    soliek
    Member

    well what i understood from your post was that you tried a specific MO school which turned you down and therefore sent your kid to public school regardless of other possibilities. i say other possibilities based on the assumption that you live in the tri state area. actually scratch that…assuming you live in alabama and you were willing to send your kid to jersey then you still had other options which, as implied by your post, you excluded because it was not MO.

    even assuming you didnt exclude the others because they were or were not MO, there are still plenty of fine yeshivos out there and i cannot come up with a single justification for sending a kid to public school as opposed to a frum (whatever level) yeshiva.

    unless your problem was money in which case i apologize. or i completely misunderstood your post in which case you should explain.

    in either case, since you decided to respond to me in the first place, care to explain exactly WHY you sent your kid to public school as opposed to yeshiva?

    #836395

    Health
    Participant

    soliek – You must be very young & naive. Have you ever heard of legal terms like divorce, custody, judgments? The only real choice I had left was this MO school in Elizabeth or the default was P.S.

    Since they didn’t accept my kid -it went to default.

    #836396

    mommamia22
    Participant

    Health

    You sound so angry

    I can feel it in your post

    You’re right. I don’t know about divorce and custody and judgements. I don’t know why you would be limited to one frum yeshiva or none at all.

    I do know that it is possible to even be kicked out of yeshiva for not being able to keep up and to move beyond the bitterness. My mother did it. She remained frum. Back in her day there were not so many frum schools. Her family upbringing kept her frum. She was angry. Felt she was dealt a raw deal. Saw it as THAT principal’s incorrect decision; not a reflection on yeshivas in general.

    Please don’t think that even very yeshivish places would accept anyone over sending them to public school. Maybe out of town, but not in New York. Kids with good “credentials” get turned down for placement just because of a flood of applicants (elementary school) and not having connections. That’s life.

    I do think, in theory, yeshivas should look after applicants who might need help finding proper placement if they aren’t accepted.

    Why do you assume I’m young?

    Why do you assume my knowledge of Halacha is not that great?

    The person who was kicked out of yeshiva who went to public school wasn’t forced to go to public school. That was their choice (I know them. You do not).

    How does the choice of the yeshiva to call the police and send letters to families alerting them to what has occurred point to their condoning this behavior? I would assume the opposite.

    #836397

    soliek
    Member

    “soliek – You must be very young & naive. Have you ever heard of legal terms like divorce, custody, judgments? The only real choice I had left was this MO school in Elizabeth or the default was P.S.

    Since they didn’t accept my kid -it went to default.”

    what has young and naive to do with it? i told you what i inferred from your post…your post contained nothing about any of that.

    #836398

    Health
    Participant

    mommamia22 -I’m angry because you have no idea what you are talking about and you think you know it all.

    “My mother did it. She remained frum. Back in her day there were not so many frum schools. Her family upbringing kept her frum.”

    How ignorant of you to compare years ago to today. Many people years ago didn’t have Yeshiva backgrounds and remained Frum due to their upbringing. Nowadays because of the low level of the generation, not only is it next to impossible to remain Frum going to P.S., but lots of kids go OTD whom do go to Yeshiva!

    “Please don’t think that even very yeshivish places would accept anyone over sending them to public school. Maybe out of town, but not in New York.”

    Outright Lie! Most Yeshivos in NY, if not all would take a kid if it meant saving them from P.S.

    Someone once told me a story what happenned with his kid. He applied to one of BP most fancy Yeshivos and he got rejected because they couldn’t agree on tuition. So he told them -he’s moving out of town and putting his kid(s) in Public school.

    He actually moved to a different state up north to a small town.

    They happenned to have a small Lubabvitch Yeshiva where he sent his kids. The Yeshiva in BP found out he moved and called him every night begging him to take his kids out of P.S. & bring his kid(s) back to BP and they would accept him. After a few months of them calling him, he felt vindicated and told them where his kids really where, so they should stop calling him.

    “Kids with good “credentials” get turned down for placement just because of a flood of applicants (elementary school) and not having connections. That’s life.”

    True, but there usually is somewhere else to go. I never heard of a story where a kid was forced into P.S. This is something you made up in your mind to defend this Yeshiva. You are obviously out of touch with reality!

    “Why do you assume I’m young?”

    I was hoping to blame your foolishness on your age. If you are older -it’s much worse!

    “Why do you assume my knowledge of Halacha is not that great?”

    Well it’s either not that great or you blatanly ignore it!

    “The person who was kicked out of yeshiva who went to public school wasn’t forced to go to public school. That was their choice (I know them. You do not).”

    So why post it? It has no revelance to my case!

    “How does the choice of the yeshiva to call the police and send letters to families alerting them to what has occurred point to their condoning this behavior? I would assume the opposite.”

    I never said that. I said acc. to your train of thought you should have no problem with Yeshivos covering up for molesters!

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