Thoughts on the Yeshiva Gush

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  • #601321

    hatzolajew
    Member

    What do you think of the place called “Gush” or “Har Etzion”

    would you let your kid go there?

    #839401

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    would you let your kid go there?

    Both these institutions are for post-high school students. If you are still thinking of where you will “let your kid go,” I expect your kid will be OTD within a couple years, if not already.

    Get a grip. It is not up to you anymore. Your kid decides where to go to yeshiva, if he decides on yeshiva at all.

    (Gush is a very well regarded yeshiva in the MO community.)

    #839402

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Many of my friends went to Gush. It is a wonderful yeshiva. I don’t know much about the other one.

    And I do agree with Popa that at that age, a person should be responsible enough to decide for himself which school/yeshiva is best for him.

    #839403

    student
    Participant

    Popa – I don’t know what goes on in your house, but in my house we make decisions with our teenage sons together. Where to go after high school is not a decision that my sons made by themselves, though their thoughts and feelings were respected. And if I felt the school they wanted was wrong for them, I would not let them go.

    BTW Gush is a Hesder yeshiva that attracts very intellectual boys, most of whom go on to Ivy League colleges afterwards.

    #839404

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    student: I don’t doubt there are controlling parents who will threaten their adult kids with all sorts of stuff in order to control them.

    I wasn’t debating whether you exist, I was just calling you a bad parent.

    #839405

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I’m probably identifying myself by saying this, but I’m applying there for next year.

    #839406

    Sam2
    Participant

    Student: “Most” is an overstatement. Most make Aliyah or go to YU. Several go to Ivy Leagues, though that number has dwindled in recent years as more and more head to YU.

    #839407

    hatzolajew
    Member

    Do you feel it is appropriate?

    #839408

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Do you feel it is appropriate?

    Do we feel what is appropriate? Being Modern Orthodox?

    #839409

    hatzolajew
    Member

    If it is a hesder yeshiva, it isn’t Modox…

    #839410

    lemaysa
    Member

    gush is a amazing yeshiva with a very high caliber of learning so if your kid even can get in you should shep nachas..

    #839411

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If it is a hesder yeshiva, it isn’t Modox…

    Gush definitely is Modern Orthodox. The rosh yeshiva is Rav Lichtenstien, who is definitely Modern Orthodox.

    #839412

    Sam2
    Participant

    Gush is, by definition, the basis of “Centrist Orthodoxy” in Eretz Yisrael.

    #839413

    WIY
    Member

    student

    Dont take popa too seriously. You sound like a levelheaded parent. Its important that teens get guidance from their parents and make decisions together. A good parent will nix a school which the parent knows will not be good for the child. Involved parents know whats best for their kid. However if you dont really know your teen then stay out of it and let whomever guides him continue to do so.

    #839414

    hatzolajew
    Member

    I’m sorry, Rav Lichtenstein is possibly one of the smartest men alive. He is a Gaon and a Harvard PHD. My son did get in, he is deciding between there and Kerem B’Yavneh. Centrist orthodoxy is far different than Modox. I doubt Rav Aharon would call himself “Modern”

    #839415

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Its important that teens get guidance from their parents and make decisions together.

    Interesting. I think that since we are referring to adults, we should call them that, not teens. Even if their age technically ends with “teen.”

    And they are entitled to make decisions themselves. Of course, they can ask for help.

    And if I felt the school they wanted was wrong for them, I would not let them go.

    That is not even making decisions together. That is pretending to.

    Try doing that to your wife. You’ll end up just as divorced as your kid who you make decisions for will end up OTD.

    #839416

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    And they are entitled to make decisions themselves.

    True. But it’s the parent’s money.

    #839417

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Centrist orthodoxy is far different than Modox. I doubt Rav Aharon would call himself “Modern”

    There is not such thing as “centrist orthodoxy.”

    Modern Orthodoxy refers to the hashkafa of Yeshiva University (sometimes called “torah umadda”). To my understanding it is mainly distinguishable from other orthodoxy in its acceptance of secular knowledge as a proper goal in itself, and in its willingness to look to the secular world and integrate the good of the “greeks” into the torah.

    For further readings, see Torah Umadda by Norman Lamm; Leaves of Faith by Rav Aharon Lichtenstien (rosh yeshiva of Gush, and son in law of Rav JB Soloveitchik).

    #839418

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hatzolajew: Rav Liechtenstein doesn’t believe that “Modern Orthodoxy” exists except as a pejorative term that some use to deride others who hold of a different Halachic standard than them. “Centrist Orthodoxy” refers to the exact same thing as what people derisively call “Modern Orthodox”.

    #839419

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hatzolajew –

    Call it what you want, but at the end of the day trying to argue that Gush isn’t Modox is like trying to argue that Lakewood isn’t yeshivish.

    That being said, both Gush and KBY are wonderful yeshivos (though I believe Gush has the edge academically).

    #839420

    WIY
    Member

    popa

    “as your kid who you make decisions for will end up OTD”

    Parents cant go around being petrified to be parents because the kid will go OTD. A parent has a responsibility as a parent and that comes first and foremost.

    Many kids have gone OTD because the parents did NOT act like responsible/loving parents.

    A Yeshivah decision is a very major decision and many times kids get into trouble for going to the wrong yeshiva for them. Going to the wrong Yeshiva can really land a kid OTD a lot more than a parent saying “No you cant go to X yeshiva because its not the right environment for you.”

    #839421

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Not to integrate the good of the “greeks” into the Torah. No one ever advises integrating anything into the Torah. Rather, it’s taking developments from the secular world and using the for the purposes of better understanding and keeping the Torah.

    #839422

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And they are entitled to make decisions themselves.

    True. But it’s the parent’s money.

    Yes, and the parents are entitled to make their own decisions with their money. So they can tell the kid they will only pay for certain yeshivos or colleges.

    There was a guy in Israel once who has a son who had gone OTD. This son asked him for a car. The father apparently could afford the car, but told the son he would buy it only if the son promised to not drive that car on shabbos. The son said no deal.

    The father consulted with Rav Shach. Rav Shach told him to the buy the car- no strings attached. If you still have a relationship, you can hopefully still influence your kid for good.

    Try telling your kid you will only pay for certain yeshivos. See what it does for your relationship.

    #839423

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I’ll quote from Michael Broyde, who is certainly Modern Orthodox. This is from an essay that was published on Cross Currents a couple months ago:

    I cut out the link, but it said:

    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

    and I attributed it.

    #839424

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Right. He doesn’t C”V mean that we make parts of the modern world parts of Judaism. He means that we take parts of the modern world and use that to enhance our Judaism. It’s a subtle distinction but it makes a tremendous difference.

    #839425

    hatzolajew
    Member

    What do people think of the intellectual rather than spiritual focus?

    #839426

    gubbish
    Participant

    i would like to believe tht non-modern orthodoxy puts value (even if its not inherent) into secular studies, bt only so tht u get a better understanding of Torah, but they dont. modern orthodox does (albeit they also give it inherent value). Yeshivism may say it believes tht secularities can help u with Torah and understanding of Hashem, but they shun away from philosophy.

    #839427

    tahini
    Member

    Both Gush and KBY are outstanding yeshivas, its a win win situation when a young man goes to either!

    #839428

    old man
    Participant

    The discussion about modern orthodoxy is irrelevant to Yeshivat Har Etzion, located in the village of Alon Shvut in the Gush Etzion area, halfway from Yerushalayim to Hevron.

    The Yeshiva is a hesder yeshiva for Israelis, with a contingent of Americans and other foreigners who come to learn for a year, two, or more. There are no secular studies, although there are many shiurim in non-talmudic areas of Torah. Again, the yeshiva is an Israeli yeshiva for Israelis, and not an American yeshiva plunked down in Israel.

    While the roshei yeshiva have their own personal hashkafos, the learning is learning in the Litvish tradition, and it is top-notch, period. Therefore the discussion on whether Rav Lichtenstein Shlita, or any of the other three Roshei Yeshiva (not American)are MO is irrelevant.

    Whoever studies there has chosen well. Hatzlachah.

    #839429

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See how dumb we are. Old man says they are the same yeshiva. hee hee. At least I was actually talking about the correct one, though.

    Old man: Of course it makes a difference what the hashkafa of the yeshiva is. I don’t know why you would say not.

    #839430

    Jothar
    Member

    Gush is a kli rishon even if it’s on a kli sheini, and must be given the chumros of a kli rishon.

    #839431

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    KBY is also a great yeshiva. It differs from Gush in that they spend less time on non-talmudic areas of Torah and that they’re American program is less fully integrated with the Israelis.

    #839432

    Sam2
    Participant

    I knew that Gush and Har Etzion were the same Yeshivah. And Old man, Rav Lichtenstein’s thoughts are still important because guys take the opportunities to listen to Shmuezes from his when they can, which often move into the philosophical realm.

    #839433

    old man
    Participant

    Rav Lichtenstein’s thoughts on any topic are important because when the Godol Hador gives a sichah (not a shmuess, at least to my knowledge that term has never been used in that yeshiva), his words are worth listening to. And yet, Rav Lichtenstein is not the only Rosh Yeshiva, there are others ,they all give sichot and shiurim, and they have varying hashkafos on many issues. One of the distinct features of this yeshiva is that different voices and opinions are heard and respected, some say to a fault. Given, it is not for everyone, but no yeshiva can make that claim. Someone who goes for the quality of learning will not be disappointed. No single person’s hashkafah need affect the learning, and so I think that this discussion of MO is irrelevant.

    #839434

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    old man: This thread was not about MO, but you are making it so. It is obvious that one considers the hashkafa of a yeshiva when attending. And it is certain what the hashkafa of this yeshiva is.

    The only reason you could have to debate it, is that you are hoping to fool people into going, and becoming MO.

    #839435

    eliyak
    Member

    Rabbi Moshe Taragin, one of the popular American rabbeim at Gush, has a number of sichot mussar and a few shiurim available here: http://www.yutorah.org/browse/browse.cfm#speaker=80307 .

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