September 29, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #610751
Today’s Generation’s Definitions:
Hashgacha Pratis: A story in which everything worked out well for me!
Dan Lekaf Zechus: A story in which someone made up something ridiculous to be Dan someone else Lekaf Zechus and then turned out to be right in the end!
Kiddush HashemA story in which a group of otherwise rowdy boys behaved on a class trip in front of goyim and then the goyim gave the Rebbi a compliment!September 29, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #994570WIYMember
What’s wrong with the Kiddush Hashem one that happens to still be an accurate definition of making a Kiddush Hashem even if they didn’t intend to make a Kiddush Hashem and just happened to behave that day?September 30, 2013 2:29 am at 2:29 am #994571live rightMember
totally. especially the Kiddush Hashem one. I work in a boy’s school and I see chillul Hashem on a daily basis. Then the kids go on a trip and some random goy (who was FOR SURE paid off) says how impressed he was by the kids behavior.
And I stand there scratching my head.September 30, 2013 5:58 am at 5:58 am #994572WIYMember
If the kids act properly in public that makes a Kiddush Hashem regardless of all the chillul Hashems they did in the past. The same person can make a chillul Hashem and Kiddush Hashem one second apart. Now as for the paid off comment you must be joking. You must be.September 30, 2013 8:46 am at 8:46 am #994573
The true definition of Kiddush Hashem is to be Mekadesh Shem Shamayim – the purist manifestation would be to die Al Kiddush Hashem. Would the Goyim then say, “Look at that Jew, he behaved so nicely by not listening to us and then making us kill him”?
Kiddush Hashem means standing up for God’s name even when others don’t. It has nothing to do with making a politically correct, good impression on Goyim.
I once heard a question (posed in Israel): If a secular Jew pulls over to ask you driving directions on Shabbos, should you not give him directions, because it will cause him to drive because of you; or should you give him directions, to show that religious Jews are not close-minded and thereby make a Kiddush Hashem?
I believe the question is insane. Helping a Jew be Mechallel Shabbos has somehow been packaged in our warped, Americanized minds as being a Kiddush Hashem?!
Obviously, a class behaving on a trip is a Kiddush Hashem. But parents and Rebbeim simply throw around the term to help guilty the kids into behaving.September 30, 2013 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #994574akupermaParticipant
Hashgacha Pratis: one need to include the implication that whatever worked out wasn’t due to your efforts
Dan Lekaf Zechus: That’s not a definition, but an example
Kiddush Hashem: 1) again, that’s an example, not a definition; 2) do you have empirical evidence but the existence of non-rowdy boys (well, perhaps if there is something wrong with them, Ha-Shem designed boys to be rowdy)September 30, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #994575BaalHaboozeParticipant
“The true definition of Kiddush Hashem is to be Mekadesh Shem Shamayim – the purist manifestation would be to die Al Kiddush Hashem.”
I’m not so sure about that, my friend. Dying al kiddush Hashem is very great indeed, but what about LIVING al kiddush Hashem??! I believe that this is an even higher form of the mitzvah.September 30, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #994576live rightMember
“I believe the question is insane. Helping a Jew be Mechallel Shabbos has somehow been packaged in our warped, Americanized minds as being a Kiddush Hashem?!”
that’s because everyone is so busy trying to show how open minded and non- judgemental frum Jews are that they forget that there are standards.September 30, 2013 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #994577iknoMember
i’ll quote what my student said today, “guys, listen, such hashgacha pratis, my nail polish, hair band and socks are all matching!”September 30, 2013 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #994578Sam2Participant
LAB: I believe the Tzitz Eliezer has a T’shuvah where he discusses that case and one of his potential reasons is that there might be a Chillul Hashem involved if you don’t give him directions. He might have rejected that, though. I don’t quite remember the whole T’shuvah.December 19, 2013 11:24 am at 11:24 am #994579interjectionParticipant
LAB: The halacha is that you are supposed to make him be mechallel shabbos as little as possible. If you know the way you’re supposed to give him the absolute shortest directions. If you know the way and you don’t tell him, you are forcing him to be mechallel shabbos for longer because he will keep asking people until he finds the way. Obviously if you don’t know, say you don’t but don’t stop to chat with the justification that you don’t want him to think you’re rude. Say ‘no idea’ and go on your way without apologies.December 19, 2013 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #994580
How in the world am I “forcing him to be mechalel Shabbos for longer”? He is driving of his own volition, and I in no way encouraged him. This cannot be compared to moshit yayin l’nazir.December 19, 2013 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #994581Sam2Participant
LAB: You don’t at all hear a S’vara that being courteous to him may help him become religious in the future? Also, he’s doing the same Chillul Shabbos no matter what. I’m not helping him by giving directions. I believe the Tzitz Eliezer mentions interjections point that if you know the shortest way you should tell him so as to be M’ma’eit his Chillul Shabbos because now he’ll drive less.
Oh, and I think your definition of Dan L’chaf Z’chus is a Gemara in Shabbos (117bish).December 19, 2013 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #994582interjectionParticipant
LAB: My husband comes home with his halacha of the day trivia. He brought up this exact situation last week. I can get you the source. But, practically speaking, if the guy is driving and he doesn’t know how to get there and he doesn’t know the value of Shabbos, he will keep asking people for directions until he reaches his destination. For him it’s not an option to walk so the sooner he gets the directions, the sooner he stops driving.December 19, 2013 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #994583
Sam – You don’t have an obligation to maybe help him become religious in the future. I also hear the s’vara that if a frum Jew helped him desecrate one of the basic tenets of Judaism he will lose respect/value for it. Let’s assume this is in Israel, where the average irreligious motorist has a very good idea of the situation.
Also, it says Im ra’isah tzadik she’chata … shemah asah teshuvah etc. I understand. I’m just saying that the obligation exists whether or not your positive judgement is in fact the truth, yet we only see stories of cases where the judgement turned out to be the truth.
interjection – I would love to hear a source for that!
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