throwing a boy out of school

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  • #1826314

    gav
    Participant

    is it right to throw a boy out of s chool

    #1826347

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sometimes it isn’t.

    #1826353

    ftresi
    Participant

    It depends.

    You need to weigh the possibility of him having a negative effect on other boys with negative effects on the boy thats not behaving. It’s not an easy decision either way and has seriou ramifications that need to be considered

    #1826357

    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    I heard a story once about a bachur in a Satmar yeshiva who did a truly outrageous aveira. It wasn’t specified in the story what he did, but apparently it was very bad. Everyone wanted him thrown out of the yeshiva. They went to Reb Yoel and asked if they should expel him. He said absolutely not – what would become of him if he was cut off from Torah. So he was allowed to stay and, long story short, many years later he’s a fine Yid with a fine family and a pillar of their community.

    #1826358

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Is he a חוטא ומחטיא?

    If he is the kid should go to gehennom so why shouldn’t he be kicked out of Yeshiva?

    #1826365

    The little I know
    Participant

    This is a volatile topic. What is saddest is that the Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations have provided guidance on the subject, and the current practice is to ignore that completely.

    The expected arguments include the mismatch of a talmid to a yeshiva, and that expulsion rectifies this. We will also hear a position that some behavior is that serious that expulsion is the only fitting consequence.

    There are other reasons besides behavior that have prompted yeshivos to throw out talmidim. One of them is the non-payment of tuition. That subject has yielded much rage, and gedolim have spoken up on the matter. We all know that running a yeshiva is expensive, and that most yeshivos are running at a deficit. How expulsion solves the problem is still difficult to explain.

    The expulsion issue today is even more serious than it was decades ago. The street is an extremely dangerous place. And getting accepted after being thrown out is harder than scaling a cliff. But I do not run a yeshiva, and cannot address every single aspect to the issue.

    #1826378

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an argument between the RMA and the Taz in YD 334 if we put someone in cherem (excomunicate), the RMA says yes and we don’t look and consequences, but the Taz questuions it. Similarly, litvishe Roshei Yeshivas are reluctant to do it. Sometimes they make an agreement before accepting him that the parents should know ahead time, if required, they have the right to throw him out.

    #1826410

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Yaakov Bender shlita often tells a story about his Rebbe, R’ Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l. There was a bochur in the Mir who developed a gambling problem. He ended up drawing in others in an attempt to deal with his own mounting debt.
    R’ Bender, along with a few other elder bochurim, approached the Rosh Yeshiva, and told him about the situation, and they told him they felt the boy must be expelled. They weren’t prepared for the response that followed. R’ Berenbaum yelled at them, “Did you fast 40 taneisim before making such a decision?!?! How can you decide dinei nefashos without fasting for 40 days?”
    R’ Berenbaum worked closely with the bochur, and he eventually turned his life around, and became a well-known talmud chacham (of course, R’ Bender never says who he is.)

    We in the CR can’t say someone should be kicked out of a school.

    #1826417

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    OK only if there is some “alternative” for her outside of the mainstream yeshiva/beis yaakov programs. This might be a special school for girls/boys with behavioral problems and special needs that the regular school has tried to accommodate but unsuccessfully. Perhaps it requires home schooling under the supervision of educational professionals or even an out of town private school specializing in behavioral issues. Too often, the issue is simply that a student (girl or boy) is lowering the school’s ratings on standard exams, other parents are complaining and the school has not been willing to invest the additional resources required to handle special needs kids.
    From a legal perspective, of course, any private school can make such decisions “at will” but I’m speaking based on what I understand to be the views of knowledgeable rabbonim and askanim who have opined on this question.

    #1826448

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Or to put it simply, just because you “can” (legally) doesn’t mean you should. The OP frames the question as “is it right” which I interpret to mean is it consistent with daas torah as well as morally.

    #1826585

    1
    Participant

    J was thrown out of yeshiva. We haven’t recovered since.

    #1826618

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    1)

    Can you imagine how bad yiddishkeit would be if he wasn’t thrown out of Yeshiva?

    #1826653

    Cleanmyhouse
    Participant

    No

    #1826650

    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Trotzsky was thrown out of yeshiva

    #1826666

    smerel
    Participant

    The name is Trotsky and he grew up secular in a secular farming community.
    The story usually told is that he wanted to go to Cheder but they were unwilling to take him in. Based on his completely secular upbringing it is very unlikely to be true. I’m sure he spoke no Yiddish and that the ONLY language most frum people spoke back then so how could he have gone to a Yeshiva.

    However, on a different note, Bernie Sanders went to a frum run Sunday school. He was completely uninterested, his mother was upset that his father insisted he attend and even his father only kept Yom Kippur and made a Seder with neighbors (apparently he and his mother didn’t attend)As such there was a next to no chance that the Sunday school he went could have had any influence on him. Even so, I still had only they realized who they were dealing with they would have made so much more effort to influence him. With any child, you never know who you are dealing with

    #1826690

    The little I know
    Participant

    Copy and paste from a comment by zahavadad on a thread some years ago.

    Once a Rav brought another rav to meet with the Chofetz Chaim , and the Chofetz Chaim threw the second rav out. As the Chofetz Chaim was not known to act this way. The came back a second time and he threw them out again.

    The came back a third time and before he could throw them out, The 2nd rav (The one who was thrown out) asked, Why do you throw me out.

    The Chofetz Chaim asked him do you remember Lev Bronstein. The rav answered. YES I do. I had to throw him out of the yeshiva..

    The Chofetz Chaim told him that Lev Bronstein was now Leon Trotsky head of the Bolshevik Revolution.

    #1827882

    press87
    Participant

    If hes a letz and causing a bad hashpah on the oilam chuck him is it worth the ruchniyus on 25 kids for 1 kid

    #1827926

    The little I know
    Participant

    press:

    Nice lomdus. But a great many gedolei Yisroel challenged that. The Satmar Rebbe ZT”L once told a Rosh Yeshiva who feared that a talmid would have negative influence on the other 26 talmidim to throw out those 26, and give all his time to that one talmid. Similar stories about Rav Shach, the Chazon Ish, and others.

    No one ignores that one bad apple can have destructive impact on others. But the knee jerk to discard the kid is not acceptable in Torah view. HKB”H never abandons any Yid, and has built in mechanisms for teshuvah. Should we not our part to emulate His midos? The expulsion often follows failed efforts at discipline, but sometimes is a rapid fire reaction to a behavior that is feared. It is not beyond the desire to uphold a stated standard (such as no phones, etc.) But who says that this is Torah acceptable? Perhaps the discipline approach is not the effective one to be used. The attitude of hanhalah must always be to look for ways of including the talmid, not how to exclude. If the focus was less on the amount of data, and more on the modeling of midos and cheishek for learning, we would observe a huge difference in behavior.

    I hear your math, but that doesn’t explain why HKB”H addresses us as individuals – “kivnei maron” on Rosh Hashanah. The true explanation is that the expelling Rosh Yeshiva or menahel ignores the impact of that action on the talmid. What about the future chinuch of the kid? WEll, there are plenty of yeshivos. Let any of them try their luck with this misfit. All that matters is that he is no longer our problem. Common statements. I have heard them many times. Did you?

    #1827995

    1
    Participant

    CA they would’ve been doing better.

    #1828501

    huju
    Participant

    Never throw a boy out from above the 3rd floor.

    #1828904

    rational
    Participant

    Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman zt”l was famous for forbidding throwing any boy out of yeshiva.

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