Throwing bleach at R' Nuchem Rosenberg to achieve justice?

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  • #607373
    chalilavchas
    Member

    Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg, spokesperson for molestation/abuse victims, is being treated in an emergency room after being assaulted.

    Theres also a petition being sent to DA Hynes, to stop Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg from supposedly harassing people, some of whom wanted to come forward in defense of Weberman.

    “…..Every US Citizen deserves a fair trial. In Mr. Nechemya Weberman’s case, there were multiple wittiness’s who were afraid to come out to testify in favour of Mr Weberman, as they were afraid that Mr. Nochem Rosenberg will harass, abuse and intimidate them….”

    Do they think if they would have come forward to support Weberman, most of Williamsburg would of cared about Rabbi Rosenberg’s blog? Who is more powerful- the Satmar administration or Rabbi Nochum Rosenberg? Gimme a break. Anyone who would have come forward in support of Weberman, would have been greatly admired by the Satmar administration.

    First the people angered at Rabbi Rosenberg’s outspokennes for justice call Rabbi Rosenberg a crazy man. Then when that doesnt help quiet Rabbi Rosenberg’s voice in support of victims, bleach is thrown in his face and they circulate a petition to DA Hynes.

    Are enemies of Nuchem Rosenberg sane and law abiding? Throwing bleach to achieve justice?

    #912371
    uneeq
    Member

    It’s funny that you’ve only been commenting machloikes-inducing posts on a website that bills itself as Yeshiva World.

    I suggest you find yourself an appropriate blog that can accommodate to your tastes.

    #912372
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What Mitzvah is there to do such an act?

    Has he been convicted by Beis Din?

    What punishment is this in the torah?

    #912373
    chalilavchas
    Member

    uneeq, you have a point, its pretty nasty stuff, but how do we put an end to this madness of ignoring, protecting and defending perps, who give Jews a very bad name?

    Please dont tell me that Jew-haters will always hate, no matter what. You realize that if you give them food for fodder, like protecting perps, they’ll surely hate and mock more.

    If we pretend this isnt happening to innocents, and dont discuss this publicly, you think the problem will improve or worsen?

    My posts are NOT addressing peace-loving aidele people.

    #912374
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Chalila, I didn’t do it. I’m telling you. Neither did anyone here. So what’s your point?

    #912375
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Well since I would think that people realistically must realize that no chinuch system can have 100% success rather 85% to 90% is realistic.

    And we would equally realize that until say 15 years ago the Yeshiva system had a pretty impressive succes rate.

    The Yeshiva system rebuilt an entire culture that we were told after the War was gone forever.

    It turned out responsible Mothers and Fathers who could get married at a young age and stay married as well as raise children.

    Many terrible things that were rampant in PS were absent in Yeshivos (for the most part).

    Of course this began to change when “chinuch experts” pointed to the 10% of children that were unfortunatley falling through cracks and argued that that meant a wholesale change was need.

    We now had to use educational methods from “proven” “trained” experts that would solve the issue.

    Well sure they came to be.

    The experts had their way.

    But since the only place these “methods” and “proven” techniques had been implements were in PS, well believe it or not instead of solving an issue they made it ten times wors.

    So the same experts who claimed that the issue was a lack of “affection” from teachers a lack of “loving” every child (go back and read the JO on Kids at Risk and its follow up).

    were in a quandry.

    You see.

    They had their way.

    The old system has been discredited, and they had their ideas implemented.

    So why are things worse?

    Well it can’t be that they were wrong.

    It can’t be that Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim who were screaming NO! while they clucked and said “Ach them? they should stick to their Gemorah. they’re too old and out of touch, we’ll educate them”

    It can’t be those Rabbonim were right.

    No.

    It’s a new problem.

    Abuse!

    A child goes off they’ve been abused, a marriage breaks down? Abuse!

    We are not responsible for anything.

    Once agin we are the Paul Revere’s! We are are warning you listen to us and our 6 figure salaries and ten degrees.

    Ignore our results.

    Ignore the fact that each and every place our “warnings” have been implementd has wound up unrecognizable.

    If these “chinuch experts” want peace.

    Then tell them to back off.

    Tell them to get their hands off our schools and off our children.

    Tell them that our children are not their guinea pigs.

    Tell them they do not know better then the Torah.

    If they leave us alone then sure we’ll them alone in return.

    #912376
    chalilavchas
    Member

    ZeesKite, seems to me youve never had a relative abused in any way (that youre aware of), so youre totally not into this topic and mode of speaking up. B”H for you! Truthfully, neither have I.

    But I can say FOR SURE that all those who have had anything like this happen to a loved one, ever, are surely not going to shush or criticize me.

    Ask anyone who has experienced the terror of abuse, and there are definitely many, if they want the topic shushed, and report to me please.

    #912377
    Mammele
    Participant

    As far as I heard, the guy was provoked by R’ Nochum coming into his store telling him “your father is next” (after weberman). I don’t know if it’s true, but it wasn’t a planned attack. I don’t condone it, but it paints a different picture. (The guy presumably uses bleach to disinfect in his store.) And he’s actually defaming a witness on his hotline, it’s not only “potential witnesses”. And I didn’t sign the petition.

    #912378
    Kozov
    Member

    zk,

    If making a machaa is what is fundamentally machlokes-inducing, I may have agreed with you. Fortunately and realistically, it isn’t. We should all say tehillim for Rabbi Rosenberg. And whoever threw bleach at him should be arraigned and punished. And your asking the point in this thread is conspicuously ironic.

    #912381
    chalilavchas
    Member

    What can the Oilem do to protect R’ Rosenberg from harm from the militant crazies, BEFORE ITS TOO LATE chas v’sholom?

    Hes a Tzadik Gomur. He says that when he wasnt allowed into any Williamsburg Shuls, he walked to the Lower East Side for a minyan. If Williamsburg people felt threatened by him, there was a reason. He knew problematic information about some of them.

    Rosenberg said he started advocating for sex abuse victims seven years ago and has been booted multiple synagogues since then.

    “There is no peaceful day in my life,” he told The News on Tuesday. “I’m very much afraid.”

    Zeeskite might tell him to disappear and keep quiet about molestation cases.

    #912382
    Avi K
    Participant

    Interestingly, just yesterday I read that some Libertarian is toting private criminal justice systems. This mafia-type act shows the need for government.

    #912384
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    No, Chalila & co. I’m chalila not advocating anything. I just don’t get it why they feel the need to hash and mash and rehash and remash over and over here. Beating up Jews is not something I do or you should either. Neither is abuse. Why the need to continue to gloat over and over and agian and again all fallacies of Jews here.There is a Justice system. Beis Din too. Let ’em fight it out there, not here. As an aside, does anyone who was chalila abused get satisfaction of having details announced and broadcast over and over again? Is every chazara another enjoyment?

    #912385
    WIY
    Member

    Chalilavchas

    While I give him credit and I think he is extremely courageous for opening up the can of worms so that these molesters get prosecuted, he is no Tzadik Gammur. He goes about it in a very stupid negative way and he uses filthy language, and has things very mixed up. He paints with very broad strokes and has zero respect for Rabbanim. He did one good thing but I would not be able to respect him because of the way he talks about Rabbanim and his general attitude.

    You can contrast him with lehavdil Rabbi Yanky Horowitz. Read their websites and you will see the difference.

    I’m not saying Nuchem doesn’t have reason to be angry and all that but he is no Rabbi and I don’t like his mo at all. He can very easily get the job done with less rhetoric and may even find more people willing to help him and approach him.

    #912386
    Health
    Participant

    Mammele -“As far as I heard, the guy was provoked by R’ Nochum coming into his store telling him “your father is next” (after weberman). I don’t know if it’s true, but it wasn’t a planned attack. I don’t condone it, but it paints a different picture. (The guy presumably uses bleach to disinfect in his store.) And he’s actually defaming a witness on his hotline, it’s not only “potential witnesses”.”

    Yes, I read this too. So people there are two sides to every story. And the reason he was thrown out of Shuls because he supposedly is very explicit about molestation on his radio show which most people hold is Ossur to do.

    Sometimes when you go overboard for a cause it’s because you really don’t care about the cause – you’re really just advocating for yourself. Ever hear of Al Sharpton?

    #912387
    chalilavchas
    Member

    ZK, ok, lets strictly discuss topics like ice cream flavors and we’ll live happily ever after. Lets stay away from any serious discussions.

    I guess you dont believe anyone here is smart enough or caring enough or interested enough or influential enough to be a catalyst for change. Status quo is the way to go, and all opinions offered on serious topics should be held under lock and key.

    Btw, you only have to involve yourself in threads that interest you. Im sure not everyone thinks all your topics and posts have tremendous merit.

    #912388
    aCookieJar
    Participant

    Ben Levi, yours is perhaps the most misinformed post in all of the CR. I don’t quite have time to detail all the wrongness here, but let me make 3 points now:

    1. Our schools sending our frum children OTD goes back way further than 15 years. I know for a fact this has been going on for at a minimum 30 years.
    2. Is it your contention that we should just assume 10% of children born to frum families will go OTD? And we (parents and educators especially) should sit back and do nothing about it? I’d love to see a torah source for that.
    3. The children that do go OTD do so because of tremendous pain. Theirs is not a happy life, at least for the transitional period. Don’t you care a bit about their pain? About your own childrens pain?

    The reason experts are concerned about abuse is because child abuse causes children to go OTD. It is that simple. Even if you disapprove of changing the chinuch system, there is still no excuse for tolerating abuse.

    #912389
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    ZK

    You are always saying how you want to defend the torah.

    Those of us who are against abuse feel strongly we are defending the torah

    Its likely that abuse is the #1 reason why people go OTD. If you could get a good reason people go OTD and STOP IT, wouldnt you be in favor of it.

    Unfortunatly abuse has been hushed and the only reason anything is being done is because people are talking. Its been the only way to get rid of this virus in our community

    #912390
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    A few points:

    R’ Nachum did NOT go to the attacker and tell him that his father was next. He had written online that he was thrilled Weberman was found guilty. He then wrote that Mr. X (I won’t post the name here) should pack his bags and get ready to join Weberman in prison.

    Later, while he was walking down the street, Mr. X’s son walked up to him and threw a cup of bleach in his face. This account was verified by other people on the street who witnessed the attack.

    What was really sad was that Hatzolah was called, and when they were told who the victim was, they refused to come.

    aCookieJar: You wrote,”The reason experts are concerned about abuse is because child abuse causes children to go OTD.” I can’t believe that this is true. We should be concerned about abuse because it is a disgusting, perverted thing which harms people, whether they go OTD or not. According to you, if there is abuse which does not cause someone to go OTD, would it be ok? Abuse is wrong because of the act itself, not because of the results that come out from it.

    #912391
    chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    Sometimes when you go overboard for a cause it’s because you really don’t care about the cause – you’re really just advocating for yourself. Ever hear of Al Sharpton?

    1- Health, are you aware of anyone in your family having been molested? (I think not, becaue to those who have, Rabbi Rosenberg is one of their life-saving heroes, who they feel is the reason theyre not leaving Yiddishkeit because hes one of those who is not hushing the topic up, like most in the community have).

    2- Health, do you think that any of his physical wounds are self-inflicted to garner public sympathy? (I think not because you might not approve of what he says nbut I dont think you’d accuse him of that).

    3- Health, I’ve seen him face to face and read about his years long fight against molestation. He has been in this fight way before he had any supporters besides the abused. That was NOT a fun time for him. Being barred from all Shuls in Williamsburg and walking to the Lower East Side for a Minyan on Shabbos/Yom Tov is not anyone’s idea of fun, and only something very heroic people are willing to do for a cause.

    4- Health, what have you ever done to stop molestation of innocents?

    Health, may you and your family stay healthy physically and mentally, far away from molesters, who wreak havoc both physically and mentally to their victims and their families.

    Continue staying on the sidelines, while Rosenberg risks his life because hes like Al Sharpton and likes the feel of bleach in his eyes and BB guns in his head. What intellect you have. Your thoughts are material for a sit-com. In my eyes, your sickly concocted thoughts are illogical and more Sharptonesque than any here.

    #912392
    The little I know
    Participant

    The most appalling thing is that the post about Rosenberg is turning into a discusson about abuse. The two subjects are worlds apart, and anyone with a conscience knows that. The subject of abuse (all forms, not just molestation) is a serious issue, it extends far beyond anyone’s belief, and the frum community has fared quite poorly (understatement) to address it in a meaningful way. Rosenberg has accomplished nothing besides making noise and creating a huge chilul Hashem.. He is not in cherem because of his advocacy. There are hundreds of people, from within the rabbinate, from the mental health professionals, to some in chinuch, to askanim, to many others who engage in true advocacy. They look to provide prevention programs, training for those in sensitive capacities, even parenting lessons. Rosenberg has dedicated his activities to besmirching any name he gets, regardless of whether the person is guilty or not. He takes credit for countless successes that are not his, and I’m not privy to name them. He has zero connection to the arrest and conviction of this week’s verdict, though it would be typical of him to claim credit. He spouts endless curses at every Rov who disagrees with him and his tactics. For him, speaking nivul peh on his hotline, and exposing children to a public venue of issues that we are commanded to address in private is a “mitzvah”. He accepts no guidance or psak halacha from anyone. And that approach is more important to him than the saving of a single neshomoh.

    I don’t condone violence or injuring anyone. But his cherem was well earned. He is not the tzaddik some proclaim him to be. He is a thorn to Klal Yisroel, claiming credit for the damage and chilul Hashem he causes. I only hope his current injuries (none of which I condone) will silence the flow of garbage that spews from him. Let true advocates with Torah values pick up the mission of protecting our children from the monsters in our midst.

    #912393
    WIY
    Member

    Zahavasdad

    +1

    #912394
    The little I know
    Participant

    Ben Levi:

    You are wrong on many counts. The day is too short to list them all, but here’s a start.

    Our chinuch system underwent changes, but maladaptive ones. There was once a semblance of responsibility to insure “No Child Left Behind”. No longer. Any child with issues is prime for expulsion or not retaining him/her next year. And it is the rare exception that such a child will be offered a second of time and effort to find another, “more appropriate” placement. Classes were smaller. Rebbes and teachers connected with their talmidim, establishing relationships, many which continue through adulthood. Such bonds are rare today. A talmid was never denied admission or withheld from attending because of tuition/financial issues. Today, it is commonplace. Discipline was appropriate for the average talmid. Today, we are plagued by use of rejection and shame as routine disciplinary tools. Yes, that is the abuse that is far greater an ingredient in the OTD issues than physical abuse or molestation. The average rebbe today (this is decreasing due to the advent of some training programs that are underutilized) is a product of kollel, with zero experience in dealing with education. The quickest way to control a classroom is discipline, but it provides zero education. Yeshivos have developed more elaborate ways to punish students, but few do much to build character, self esteem, or teach the basics of emunah or cheshek for Torah and Mitzvos. Today’s children are very different from a generation ago, with major distractions, very different social norms, and require new sets of skills to make it through life. Torah is great (does not need my haskomoh), but until our schools and yeshivos learn how to meet the educational needs of our youth, we will continue to have fallout. It is NOT the introduction of “secular” knowledge. It is the failure to do chinuch, to teach. Discipline has a very tiny place in chinuch, but our yeshivos invest the greatest portion of resources and time into this. Build students, don’t crush them.

    #912395
    TheGoq
    Participant

    “does anyone who was chalila abused get satisfaction of having details announced and broadcast over and over again?”

    Yes they get satisfaction because until now the world has blamed them for things that were not their fault when it is publicized they can finally feel like they are no longer the problem because the world has been awakened to the truth and the truth shall set you free.

    #912396
    chalilavchas
    Member

    The little I know,

    Rosenberg has accomplished nothing besides making noise and creating a huge chilul Hashem.. He is not in cherem because of his advocacy. There are hundreds of people, from within the rabbinate, from the mental health professionals, to some in chinuch, to askanim, to many others who engage in true advocacy. They look to provide prevention programs, training for those in sensitive capacities, even parenting lessons.

    There are many who feel just the opposite! He is risking his life to rise against the tide. Proof of his accomplishments (his efforts have aided in convictions) is the barbaric way that some Williamsburgers are attacking him. The guilty parties and their faithful accomplices, the hushers (“lets take care of it ourselves”), are seething and behaving like savages.

    You might not like everything about him, but hes keeping YOUR kids safer.

    How many people that you deem the true advocates, have aided in as many convictions?

    #912397
    The little I know
    Participant

    chalilavchas:

    You are badly mistaken. He has never kept anyone’s child safer, not for a minute, not for a second. I know many victims who have interacted with him extensively. His preoccupation is not about making anyone’s life safer. It is totally about bashing anyone and everyone. Why he has picked up the gauntlet of abuse victims is curious (not that it is not a legitimate cause). But listen to his hotline. His head is where his underwear should be. He takes every single name he gets and proceeds to campaign to destroy it, whether guilty or innocent, whether related to issues of abuse or not. I have monitored the abuse scene for several years, and I have yet to encounter one thing Rosenberg did that was effective in saving or protecting a single child. He made lots of noise about a subject that was being swept under the rug. He established relationships with media – much of which has been detrimental to Klal Yisroel, and often interfered with the DA office working to prosecute perpetrators. He is a menace to the entire Klal, not a protector of anyone. We need morally responsible people to uproot molesters, get them into courts and prisons, and to promote safety programs throughout the community. Not Rosenberg.

    #912398
    Health
    Participant

    chalilavchas – I will not respond to your post, but it seems some very logical posters have, like “the little I know”. There are ways to deal with issues and there are ways to make a lot of smoke without much fire. I personally don’t know this guy, but if most people in Willi are against him they all aren’t wrong.

    Just a question – are you him or are you related to him?

    Btw, he ain’t much on the ball. He let EMS or Hatzolah (if they responded) take him to Woodhull. If they refused to take him elsewhere – call a cab or relative or friend (if he has any) and go to Manhattan. His life wasn’t immediately in danger. You’d think the guy that has his finger on the pulse of all molesters would have the sense Not to go to the worst hospital in the city.

    #912399
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Health: Not everyone is against him, and even if most are, it doesn’t speak to them. It all comes down to one person – the Satmar Rav in Williamsburg. Most of the people will go by what he says, even if they disagree. If he’s wrong, it flows down to everyone else. With regard to the whole Weberman case, he was wrong.

    You wrote “Hatzolah (if they responded)”. Hatzolah was called. They refused to respond because of who he is. They can lose their license for that. No doubt people will cry anti-semitism, but it’s only because of their hatred for this hero of a man.

    #912400
    Ferd
    Participant

    “Hatzolah was called. They refused to respond because of who he is. They can lose their license for that. No doubt people will cry anti-semitism, but it’s only because of their hatred for this hero of a man.”

    You didn’t verify this yourself, did you.

    Nah. You didn’t.

    You just ate what the NY Post shoved down your throat.

    You people sicken me.

    #912402
    147
    Participant

    It is 100% Ossur to throw bleach on anybody, just as it is 100% Ossur to throw any stone at any car on Shabbos or any other time.

    Plenty people became religious thru attending a Seder nite invitation, or Shabbos meal, or Chanukah lighting invitation or being invited into someone’s Sukkah, but no-one ever became frum from having bleach nor stones cast at them, nor from Tzeni’us policing.

    People have even become motivated from having flown to Israel with El Al, and praying at the Kossel.

    #912403
    chalilavchas
    Member

    You wrote “Hatzolah (if they responded)”. Hatzolah was called. They refused to respond because of who he is. They can lose their license for that.

    Rosenberg clearly said on Youtube that Hatzloah was NEVER called, 911 was. Thats why Hatzolah didnt come. He has no complaints to Hatzolah.

    #912404
    oomis
    Participant

    There is no justification for a Yid committing such an egregious and despicable act of violence, much less against another Yid, no matter WHAT the provocation.

    #912405
    Ferd
    Participant

    DaMoshe, any response to your blatant outright LIE?

    No you won’t respond.

    As I wrote above, you are one of the airheads who simply drink all the drek that the NY Post publishes, and is then republished by the hateful self-hating (one upon a time) Jewish blogs.

    Get a life.

    Apologize to the more than 1,500 dedicated Hatzolah volunteers right now.

    #912406
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Ferd: I based my post on information I had read. It seems that information was wrong. I did not intend to lie, I simply received false information – kind of like all the Satmar chassidim who listened to their Rebbe regarding the Weberman trial.

    I apologize to the one anonymous dispatcher who was accused of refusing to help. I made no accusations against the other Hatzolah members, and therefore no apology is required.

    I have nothing but the highest respect for Hatzolah members. I’ve used their services before, as have many relatives of mine. My Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Yaakov Bender, helped found Hatzolah in both Flatbush and Far Rockaway. I admire those who volunteer their services for Hatzolah, and wish them nothing but success.

    #912407
    aCookieJar
    Participant

    The Little I Know:

    I completely agree. Whether you agree or disagree with his methods, there is never an excuse to throw bleach at people. The response to this even must be unequivocal, this is wrong under all circumstances.

    Although, I have to say I if somebody accused my father of doing such things, I might do things I’d later regret.

    DaMoshe:

    My point was in response to Ben Levi, that abuse is some new-fangled excuse for OTD. Abuse is wrong on every level, but I find it insane that frum people seem so dismissive about it. You’d think they would care, even if just to prevent kids from going OTD.

    #912408
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I cant belive the mods allowed nivel peh in Yiddish, if I used the same word in english Im sure the post would not go through and Id be warned

    #912409
    Ferd
    Participant

    “I based my post on information I had read”

    Ooooooh….so I guess I was right. You read what the trashy NY Post says (or the hate-blogs who republished it), and took it at face value.

    Oh I see. So you believe anything anyone writes without verifying it, right? Like a Ferd does, right?

    Good. Thanks for letting us all know that you are a Ferd.

    Not to mention that your Rosh yeshiva would be mortified if he knew what you just wrote. I know Reb Yankel Bender long before you were born.

    Shame on you.

    You slandered the entire Hatzolah, you FERD.

    Let’s repost what you wrote, and see if you were talking about “one anonymous dispatcher” or the entire Hatzolah. Then, call your Rosh Yeshiva, and ask him if you need to ask mechilah.

    “Hatzolah was called. They refused to respond because of who he is. They can lose their license for that. No doubt people will cry anti-semitism, but it’s only because of their hatred for this hero of a man.”

    “Hatzolah”….”They”…”They”….Their hatred”…..

    Your an utter disgrace to Yiddishkeit.

    Have your Rosh Yeshiva repeat some of the Shmussen of his Mashgiach, HaRav Hersh Feldman Zt”l, and maybe you will climb off your high-horse.

    Ferd.

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