April 30, 2023 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #2185344
It has been mockingly brought up enough times. The idea that a Jew can be good or do mitzvos while being an atheist, and that we shouldn’t care what people think, and that Hashem doesn’t, chas veshalom, care what’s in a man’s heart as long as his body does what the Torah says to do.
Rachmana liba bai, but that’s just the beginning. The kavanah of the Torah and our creation (mesilas yeshorim, perek 1) is to bring us to olam haba after a life of mitzvos. That olam haba is the product of the perfection of mind that one achieves in this world, through clinging to Hashem in Torah and mitzvos(ibid)
A person who denies the torah or Hashem has no share in that place by their own design. He is also not a part of klal yisroel and his mitzvos, his brochos should he make them, are worthless.
I’m not speaking to someone with nisyonos in emunah. He shouldn’t think his mitzvos are worthless. I’m referring to a person who is convinced that they do not believe in the torah, or part of the Torah, or even one letter.
Below are some relevant sources, culled from a shabbos reading of the empty wagon, by rabbi Yaakov shapiro.
Bayos hazman, page 97:
An effect of the oneness of Hashem and His Torah is a prohibition to worship idols. And chalilah that we should have any other goals or purposes in addition to the Torah, for that is multiplicity,and the opposite of oneness, like Christianity, which we martyred ourselves to oppose.
He goes on to say that all things we value, such as middos, are only important because they come from the Torah, otherwise it’s avodah zara.
Rambam igeres taiman: whoever has a doubt about Hashem or nevuah, his ancestors did not stand at har sinai, as Hashem promised “gam becha yaaminu leolam”
Radak yechezkel 18:6 : anyone who has deviated from our beliefs is not truly descended from them, but rather from the asafsuf.
Bayoz hazman, page 57, proves from a smag, mitzvah 81,that apikorsim forfeit their place in the nation, not only that, but they are not called zera yisroel.
Teshuvos rashba chelek 1, 414, says that apikorsim are from zera of male and female demons.
The satmar rov in vayoel moshe, lashon kodesh 27, explains what this means with a magen avrohom(OC 46:10) which uses the idea of “switching neshomos” which is in sifrei kabalah to explain why we’re allowed to make a brachs of shelo asani goy, ishah, etc..everyday, if there was never a hefsek in our being Jewish, a man, etc…
The magen avrohom says that neshomos can get switched and we thank Hashem that we got the right neshomos every day when we wake up, as when we sleep, our neshomos leave.
The satmar rov says that all of the above sources about not being jewish refer to the neshoma; an apikores has the soul of a demon inside them.
The torah clearly cares a lot about what’s in one’s heart.
The satmar rov brings additional proof to this from the rikanti and other older sources.
Sources that a non believer’s actions do not count as mitzvos.
Rambam, shaar hagemul, and introduction to iyov.
Ginas veradim 2:31, says that an apikores (not even a full blown atheist) gets no reward for mitzvos.
Kovetz shiurim 2, 47:14
Pachad yitzchok, pesach 7, based on the psak of the ra’ah about achilas matzah,that one must be aware of the existence of a mitzvah for it to count even if you hold mitzvos ainan tzrichos kavanah.
Netziv, haamek davar, bamidbar 15:39, performing a mitzvah is not considered a mitzvah unless the person performing it believes at least that he is commanded to do it. As opposed to someone whose heart harbors the heresy that he does not believe in a Commander. His actions are not considered performed.”April 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185597WolfishMusingsParticipant
says that apikorsim are from zera of male and female demons.
And here I thought I came from my parents. Do you mean my parents lied to me when they told me that I was born from them?
The WolfApril 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185602☕️coffee addictParticipant
What is this in relation to?
What brought this up?April 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185603
TLDR So briefly explain how you intend to demolish orthopraxy.April 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185604Desperate to understandParticipant
You’re right but who’s arguing with you?April 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185607doom777Participant
The problem is not the positive mitzvos, it’s the negative ones. Someone who is mehalel shabbos is haiv. Someone who is not mehallel Shabbos, is not Haiv even if his reasons for not doing it are stupid.April 30, 2023 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2185608maskildoreshParticipant
I generally agree with you.
I don’t , of course , disagree with any of the sources that you have posted.
The concept of being an atheist and outwardly following the Torah, for externalistic reasons such as not wanted to change one’s lifestyle etc is certainly not ok. If a person is a genuine Kofer , unfortunately he must suffer all the consequences in Olam HaEmes that result. I don’t think anyone would say that being “Orthoprax” is ok.
HOWEVER, I have two cautionary qualifiers.
1. It would not be proper to say to someone Jewish who claims to be an athiest , that he should start violating the Torah externally Chas Vishalom, in order to “honestly conform” his actions to his beliefs. Regardless of one’s beliefs, it’s not ok to be Oiver Issurim. His Teshuva will be far easier if he hasn’t abandoned particing Yiddishkeit, as well. So it important that if you are “demolishing orthopraxy” you shouldn’t be misunderstood as saying that people who don’t believe shouldn’t maintain their Yiddishkeit in practice. Doesn’t mean it’s ok, of course.
2. I have met many people who are confused about what they belive , and aren’t sure themselves. Emuna is deeply rotted in the Neshoma. Yiddin who were tremendous Avaryanim RL have suddenly chosen to give ip their lives rather than repudiate their Yiddishkeit.
I’m not sure that some people who think that they are atheists aren’t really lost in the midst of a Nisayon in Emuna. I’ve found, that when engaged in conversation , many will admit to be unsure of what they really feel. What drives the engine of maintaining Yiddishkeit on the outside may often be the Neshoma refusing to lose its grip on what’s most precious to it, althewhile allowing various rationalisations to take place. I would caution against pushing people who say they don’t belive. I’ve heard people say “I don’t know why I still won’t eat Treif/marry a non Jew/ eat on Yom Kippur etc”.
This doesn’t mean it’s ok, it’s not ok to be a Kofer.
But sometimes people need help to realize that they are not as far away as they think. Everyone can do teshuvaApril 30, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2185625
Amil, if a topic isn’t interesting enough for you to invest time to read it(TLDR) why would your comment thereon be worthwhile?April 30, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2185626
Coffee – it’s great that you haven’t noticed the multiple brazen, cavalier comments on here that precipitated this post. No need to bring them up, because they’re completely assur to read or think about.April 30, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2185623pekakParticipant
So @AviraDeArah holds that people whose heart’s aren’t “in the mitzvos” should stop doing them entirely?April 30, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2185624
Wolf, you didn’t read the vayoel Moshe’s explanation of what that means – it’s clear in my post.
Maskil – i agree. I should have spent more time on the subject you mention, but i did say that a person with emunah issues is not being discussed here. I should have mentioned that a person who is outwardly observant should most definitely continue to do so, and when he eventually comes to emunah, those mitzvos he did will count retroactively (I think)April 30, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2185622Yabia OmerParticipant
and then?April 30, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2185638ZetruthParticipant
How do you like them apples?April 30, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2185642
not sure what this leads to, but I see the pattern: a well researched post with multiple sources supporting author’s position. So, either everyone supports that or the author omits those who disagree.April 30, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2185646
Pekak – no, but they shouldn’t go around saying that it doesn’t matter what a person thinks and what their ideologies are. Because it matters a lot. It can make a person literally demonic, as the rashba says.April 30, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2185647
Also, pekak – i never once discussed a person who has no geshmak or feeling in mitzvos. A person sometimes goes through periods or even years when this is missing, and none of what i said has anything to do with that.
I am referring to apikorsim who disbelieve in or consistently doubt the Torah.
Some use the term orthopraxy to describe people who go through the motions of yiddishkeit while their hearts aren’t into it – that is NOT the issue here. That’s an old yatzer hora of mitzvos anashim melumada, and it has its own remedies.April 30, 2023 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2185660
Avera, I would prefer if you answer my question rather than evading an answer with another question, since your post offered no solution. Just how do you plan to ‘demolish’ orthopraxy?April 30, 2023 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #2185661Reb EliezerParticipant
The Satmar Rebbe (Rav Yoel ztz’l) writes that one who kisses a Sefer Torah and does not believe in the existence of Hashem, makes the sefer torah an a’z. He says also that the land of Israel becomes an a’z.April 30, 2023 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2185671pekakParticipant
There are certainly people like those you speak of. If you alienate them you are also alienating their children. The best you can do is ignore them. Like ChaZa”l say
דע מה שתשיב לאפיקורס, הני מילי לאפיקורס עכו”ם
משא”כ באפיקורס ישראל דפוקר טפיApril 30, 2023 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #2185676
Pekak, your point is well made. I wonder how many generations Avera is willing to ‘demolish’? And why not work to bring them back into the fold? Is alienation of two generations really something positive?April 30, 2023 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2185679
Pekak, i made no mention of alienation of people. But we must not permit alien ideologies and beliefs to enter our minds or tolerate them.
I bet you’d be alright with not tolerating Christian beliefs in our community; jewish people who keep mitzvos but secretly believe in yushke and sometimes let it out in conversation…
Or what about Holocaust deniers? Would you allow them to go about denying the Holocaust openly on occasion, slipping in here and there that maybe the whole thing was a lie…
Apokorsus is dangerous; such ideas as spiritual poison, and if given the choice between letting the Torah community, or my own children, thinking that apokorsus is ok, versus possible alienation of such people… innocent people are frankly more important.April 30, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2185696
I am thinking of a similar situation related to learning: R Gamliel forbidding insincere students, and revoking that rule “on that day” when more benches were brought and RG warming up to this mass of students … I personally am sympathetic with R Gamliel in terms of desiring purity of learning, and I think there is a kal vehomer here: it is easier to overlook lack of sincerity in mitzvos than in learning, as the first achieve something without kavana, while the latter requires intellect to be involved. So, if we reject RG approach to purity in learning, it would follow that we shuold do same in orthopraxy.April 30, 2023 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2185704amiricanyeshivishParticipant
You are equating insecerity with Athiesm or apikorsos. What is the shaychus??
Not being “toichoy kebaroy” does not mean they were ch”v apikorsim. How dare you talk about our Tannaim in such a callous way!!May 1, 2023 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #2185877
Op indeed mentions atheists, but this is not what orthopraxy usually is. At Least in our times. It is usually people who didn’t thimuch about why they do what they do. It is exactly like students whose inside is not like outside. I don’t think any Tanna I’m in the Mishnah are in that category, the question was whether to admit such students. You might be insulting Tannaim by your assumptionMay 1, 2023 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2185907
“But we must not permit alien ideologies or beliefs to enter our minds”
So control your own mind. Think what you believe to be correct. What is the big deal.
Don’t go around examining every one else’s opinions. It will just confound you.
Whatever anyone thinks they believe, pales in comparison to what Hashem sees in their intentions.
It is not a public debate what yidden should think. It is critical that we act like Yidden.
If you see chilllul shabbos or bittul torah, you try to rectify it.
If you see dayos kozvos, you walk away.
Someone who bothered to think things through, is not going to be impressed by someone telling him that his Rebbe said something else.
Most people who say a lot on these topics, are quoting a great scholar who they do not understand.May 1, 2023 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2185910
I think AAQ is being more accurate. These people would be terribly insulted if you tell them they are atheists. Like telling people who use an eruv they are violating Shabbos.May 1, 2023 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2185938
Nom, so why does the rambam say that one who doubts and flip flops in his mind about emunah is “destroying the world”
Why does the nefesh hachaim write that inappropriate thoughts are worse than the churban beis hamikdash, that they are putting an idol in the kodesh hakedoshim, because a jewish mind is a real mishkan, whereas Hashem removed the kedushah from the beis hamikdash before rhe churban?
You have ZERO sources for your “why do you care what someone else thinks” mindset – we care about it because we care about all mitzvos, whether hidden or revealedMay 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185962
I have to be clear what I think. I have to put all my efforts into Torah and Mitzvos. That includes that I do what I can that others should be involved in Torah and Mitzvos.
But I should not be concerned that others are not thinking wrong. I answer amen to someone’s bracha even if I didn’t debate their belief in anything. My thoughts matter to me. Someone else’s doesn’t.
Show one source that I should get involved in your yiras shamayim.
Your being very juvenile.May 1, 2023 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2186002Yabia OmerParticipant
Avira do you have a full time job??May 1, 2023 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2186007
“But I should not be concerned that others are not thinking wrong. I answer amen to someone’s bracha even if I didn’t debate their belief in anything. My thoughts matter to me. Someone else’s doesn’t.”
If 9 people are waiting in shul and a man walks in with tallis and tefillin, we go ahead with yishtabach and kaddish, even if we don’t know him. We answer amen to his brachos. We may even give him an aliyah. This doesn’t really contradict what AviraDeArah is arguing. We give people who profess and act as frum Jews a chezkas kashrus by default. If we later learn that the man is a kofer, we no longer give the chezkas kashrus.
“Show one source that I should get involved in your yiras shamayim.”
What if a kehilla were considering this man to be their mora deasra?May 1, 2023 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2186008
“Some use the term orthopraxy to describe people who go through the motions of yiddishkeit while their hearts aren’t into it – that is NOT the issue here.”
I’d contend that the majority of people defined orthopraxy this way, which may be why you’re encountering significant resistance in this thread.May 1, 2023 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #2186022
What if he refuses to tell us what he believes? Is there supposed to be some kind of inquisition to make sure people are of the right mind on various critical matters?
(Deep breath,) don’t ask me to get involved in who you choose as a rabbi.May 1, 2023 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2186054
We, for instance, remove someone from the amud if he refuses to say birkas haminim, even if he says he’s not a minMay 1, 2023 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2186058
I think we got to a conclusion – this thread is more about what is in the mind of the OP than of the objects. Avira seems to suspect that everyone who is not thinking like him is an apikoires, and the fact that the person read or quotes some T’Ch not approved by Avira as the definite proof.
We indeed have a mishna that lists cases where we correct shaliach tzibur when he _expresses_ inappropriate beliefs, I just don’t see tanna going as far as Avira does.May 1, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2186075
amirican, and if you think outside ~= inside is not such a big deal, we also have 12,000 hevrusos who Hashem did not judge deserving to become Teachers of Torah for inappropriate middos.May 1, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2186053CSParticipant
The 205th mitzvah is that we are commanded to admonish a person who is performing a transgression or who is preparing to do so. One must verbally warn him and admonish him. We are not allowed to say, “I will not sin; and if someone else sins, that is between him and G‑d.” This [attitude] is contrary to Torah. Rather, we are commanded not to transgress, nor to allow another Jew to transgress. If a person is preparing to transgress, each individual is commanded to admonish him and to prevent him [from transgressing], even if there has not been testimony which would be sufficient for him to be punished.
The source of this commandment is G‑d’s statement (exalted be He),1 “You must admonish your neighbor.”
Also included in this commandment is that we should complain to a person who has done wrong to us. We should not bear a grudge and consider him to be a sinner. Rather, we are commanded to verbally complain to him in order that nothing should remain in our heart [against him].
In the words of the Sifra, “What is the source of the law that even if you admonish someone four or five times that you should continue to admonish him? From the phrase, ‘hochei’ach to’chiach.’2 One might think that one could admonish him to the point that his facial features change3 — the verse therefore continues,4 “And not bear sin because of him.”
Our Sages5 explained that this commandment is incumbent on every individual; even a person on a low level to someone on a higher level.6 Even if one is cursed or insulted he should not desist, nor stop admonishing unless he is struck physically, as explained by our Sages from the Oral Torah,7 “[One must reprimand] until one receives physical blows.”
This mitzvah has conditions and laws which are explained in various places in the Talmud.May 1, 2023 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2186091
CS, a good point. One of the halochos of tochacha is that if are unable to do it properly – privately, showing your love and care for the recipient, then you are exempt.May 1, 2023 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2186092
Avira is a Rebbe in an MO school. I’ll bet you’re as thrilled to learn that as I was!May 1, 2023 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2186095
Dofi, want to know who’s thrilled? I had a parent call me the other day to tell me that he has a TV, but wants strict control over what his kids watch. He has three kids. The family was watching some show or movie, and there was a scene of people acting immorally.
The father went to turn it off but he found one of his sons had covered his eyes. The other children protested the father turning off the show.
The father thanked me for teaching his son and said he wished his other kids’ teachers would do what i do.May 2, 2023 1:12 am at 1:12 am #2186107
Just as it’s impossible for a person to perform mitzvos without proper belief in HKB”H, it’s impossible to properly educate children when you have nothing but disdain for their parents, their community and their school. Ortho-prax damage themselves but Chinuch-prax damage every child they come into contact with. The father in question would be less than complimentary if he read your posts.May 2, 2023 1:12 am at 1:12 am #2186106amiricanyeshivishParticipant
I retract. I actually never heard of the term Orthopraxy untill now. I was going on the OP post which mentioned Athiesm.May 2, 2023 8:13 am at 8:13 am #2186161Reb EliezerParticipant
Sinai, general knowledge in the talmud is greater than oker harim, pilpul because if there is a damage in the foundation, the building will fall. Emunas Hashem is the foundation.May 2, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2186213
Dofi, has it occurred to you that it’s possible to detest sin and apikorsus without having ill feelings towards innocent children, and parents who are intending for their children to have what they think is a Jewish education?
The father didn’t have any qualms about telling me that he watches television, just as none of the kids or parents think I judge them. Because i don’t.
However, I’m rather certain that your ill feelings towards, say, racists, or whatever else non Jewish society has taught you to dislike, would come out if you had to deal with such people. Because you, like everyone else who goes on and on about not judging people, are likely the most judgemental sort of people – tolerating what you personally decide to be tolerable and hating that which you decide to hate.May 2, 2023 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2186253
I’m not the one who constantly peddles vile hatred on this site, you are.May 2, 2023 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2186292
Dofi, part of loving Torah is hating that which it hates. How can you love Torah fully if it and Hashem hates something, and you tolerate it?May 2, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2186306
Despite your insistence that you don’t hate Jews, your posts indicate that you do. Otherwise, you’d happily share them with your employer and their parent body but we both know you’d then be unemployable.
Just as it’s clear to you what goes on in the minds of the Orthoprax, your visceral hatred for others is obvious to everyone who reads your posts.May 2, 2023 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2186315
“What if he refuses to tell us what he believes?”
Well then, he just might not be a good candidate for the job.
“Is there supposed to be some kind of inquisition to make sure people are of the right mind on various critical matters?”
This is an appeal to an extreme. Did I say everyone needs interrogation? And inquisition is a loaded term. We are human beings; we cannot read someone else’s mind. If a Jew is making obvious efforts to follow the mitzvos (living in a frum community, observing Shabbos, YT, kashrus, dressing Jewishly, etc.), then he is assumed to be appropriately suited for basic communal functions. In some cases, we investigate more (or should investigate more), but at the end of the day we have to rely on the answers given. Have some people taken advantage of this (e.g., missionaries posing as frum Jews)? Yes.
“(Deep breath,) don’t ask me to get involved in who you choose as a rabbi.”
Ok, I won’t. But do you disagree with the need for any investigation into the beliefs or character of a man being considered to lead a community? Should we not care about whether the man who paskens Hashem’s law to us actually believes that Hashem exists and gave us that law?May 2, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2186326ZetruthParticipant
@Avram in MD I agree but at least for the last 3 years, we have seen the tragic consequences when so called leaders, disconnected from the reality, are in charge. As soon as they become influent, it just seems like you can’t rely on them.May 2, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2186371
Avira, sometimes it is hard to see yourself from outside. While I am sure you have a lot of positive influence on your students, I am also in agreement with Dofi that you are committing genius daas from the parents. I had to take my kids out of schools because of well meaning influencers like you.
I don’t know how exactly to differentiate between where one should influence kids and where to respect other opinions, but you seem to consistently fall on the wrong side of this line.May 2, 2023 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2186391
Aaq, i appreciate your comment that i have genius daas… Though i think it’s an exaggeration.
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