Time to leave US

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  • #617143

    Avi K
    Participant

    By Gil Ronen

    JWRP’s flagship project is Momentum, an “eight-day transformational experience in Israel.” However, in a video uploaded last week, she seemed to be updating her vision, from one in which US Jews visit Israel, to one in which they relocate there permanently.

    He said that the time to get out was when “they start killing Jews in the street.”

    JWRP was founded in 2008 by eight women in the Washington DC area with the goal of “chang[ing] the world through Jewish women.”

    Now partnering with Israel’s Ministry of Diaspora Affairs, JFRP plans to bring 6,000 women from 20 different countries to the Jewish state in the next two years.

    #1136028

    Joseph
    Participant

    this is precisely what is already happening in France and New York.

    She’s mixing up New York with Tel Aviv. Killing Jews in the street is mostly happening in the State of Israel. Even France doesn’t have it as bad as the Israelis.

    New York should become the safe-haven for French Jewry.

    #1136029

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph, of course, Hashem wants all Jews to live in NY. Doesn’t the Torah say that? It’s safer in Israel than NY and when Muslim feel more secure and as their numbers are growing, you will have much more problems, as is happening around the world. The slightest thing gts reported here, but check police reports and FBI statistics and you’ll be shocked.

    At least in Israel, we have protection from Hashem and a proactive policing policy, not like the States, where the police show up in time to call the coroner.

    #1136030

    takahmamash
    Participant

    New York should become the safe-haven for French Jewry.

    There’s no mitzvah to live in NY. There is a mitzvah to live in E”Y.

    #1136031

    Joseph
    Participant

    More Jews are murdered in the State of Israel, including proportional to their population, than Jews murdered in New York or even France. Proportionally or hard numbers. Same point applies to more Jews being assaulted in the State of Israel than Jews being assaulted elsewhere.

    #1136032

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s no less a mitzvah to live in New York than to live in France.

    #1136033

    Killing Jews in the street is mostly happening in the State of Israel. Even France doesn’t have it as bad as the Israelis.

    Joseph you don’t seem to understand that mostly is irrelevant here. One is too many and happening less is still happening. Not to confuse you with facts.

    #1136034

    Joseph
    Participant

    The OP presented a version of so-called facts that pretended that Israel is physically safer for Jewish living than the diaspora. He, or rather the lady he quoted, is factually incorrect.

    Jews are murdered and are maimed proportionally less in the diaspora than they are in the State.

    #1136035

    akuperma
    Participant

    The biggest threat to American Jews come from the ultra-secular non-orthodox Jews. In American they are perhaps 1% of the country, but even where they are important locally their ability to make mischief (e.g. ban bris milah, ban yeshivos, punish Jews for not support “gay rights, etc.”) is limited by America’s constitution and tradition of “rule of law”. In Eretz Yisrael, secular Jews are the majority, and their quasi-constitution as interpreted by the zionist courts is devoted to “freedom from religion”.

    Even with Democrats in charge, America is in no danger of being overrun by its enemies or of being destroyed. Medinat Yisrael exists only for so long as the Muslims keep fighting each other – if they unite then Israel would be unlikely to survive. Remember two or three well placed nuclear bombs would wipe out most of the population of Israel.

    If you take into account that Israel is 1/40 the size of the US, terrorism and crime in Israel are far more dangerous and disruptive than in America.

    #1136036

    golfer
    Participant

    Regarding takahm’s post-

    Is there universal agreement that yishuv Eretz Yisrael is a Mitzvah that applies b’zman hazeh?

    Also, am I the only one decidedly unimpressed when Ms Palatnik quotes “a very great rabbi”?

    #1136037

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    Per 1 million people, there are 20 murders in Israel, and 42 in America. Moreover, nearly all the recent murders in Israel have been in the West Bank so walking in Tel Aviv is not any more dangerous.

    Golfer- there is no universal agreement that yishuv e”y applies bizman hazeh. and I’m also unimpresssed by an unnamed great rabbi.

    #1136038

    Joseph
    Participant

    I said Jews, not minority-on-minority inner-city drug gang killings far from Jewish neighborhoods. Jews in Israel are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime and targeted for violence because they are Jews, than Jews living in any major Jewish community outside of Israel.

    And Jews in Israel are far more likely to be killed or maimed in war or war related casualties than Jews anywhere else in the world.

    #1136039

    The OP presented a version of so-called facts that pretended that Israel is physically safer for Jewish living than the diaspora.

    No, they said nothing of the sort, as you know. The OP said she heard the time to leave is when Jews are being killed in the streets. And they are. Period. The fact that one isn’t enough to make an impression on you is irrelevant.

    #1136040

    Joseph
    Participant

    They are being killed in the streets of the State of Israel, correct. It most certainly makes a deep impression on me.

    #1136041

    charliehall
    Participant

    If we elect a bigot like Trump or a theocrat like Cruz we may have to leave.

    #1136042

    Joseph
    Participant

    Charlie, if Israel elects a bigot or theocrat as prime minister, will you advocate the Jews leaving the country?

    #1136043

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If we elect a bigot like Trump or a theocrat like Cruz we may have to leave.

    Yes, yes, we know. Anyone liberals disagree with is a bigot.

    #1136044

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    who cares that Jews in Israel are more likely to be killed for being Jews than anywhere else? When evaluating sakanas nefashos we look at statistics (like the murder rate I cited), not kavanos. Additionally, I’ll note that almost all Jews killed for being Jews are murdered in the West Bank. So the streets of Tel Aviv (per your example) are fine.

    #1136045

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. Yerushalayim and its frum neighborhoods is not in the West Bank. And the violence has repeatedly reared is head there.

    2. Your US stats mostly constituted black-on-black crime, primarily from drugs and certainly stats that are of little effect on Jews. Your Israeli stats, otoh, was mostly compromised of Jews.

    #1136046

    Naftush-2
    Participant

    Both sides are wrong. The Australian outback is the safest place on earth. Let’s all run there. And if things get rough there, let’s try the high plains of Paraguay. Then upper Saskatchewan. Then Catalina Island. Then…

    #1136047

    Zogt, he can’t hear you, he has an agenda in his ears.

    #1136048

    Joseph
    Participant

    Natfush: In Golus Jews are safe nowhere. Not in Israel and not in the diaspora. But bderech hateva today, Jews in major Jewish communities around the world have a better safety record from war and violence than the Jews in Israel.

    The primary reason this is being pointed out is to counter the false Zionist narrative that their State is a security safetynet for Jews around the world. The reality is that claim is false.

    #1136049

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    1. we are talking about sakanas nefashos. since september, 23 Jews have died, 19 in the West Bank. So yes, Yerushalayim is very safe, and Tel Aviv (your example) is certainly safe.

    2. your numbers about black on black crime are also off. Roughly half of all murders are by whites and half are by blacks, according to BJS stats for the past 30 years.

    And just so you know, 57% of all religious hate crimes in america are targeted at Jews. for example, I know a girl whose brother got beat up by a black gang on the street just a few months ago, for being Jewish.

    #1136050

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    Mod 29- true, but I respect Joseph’s opinion enough to want to hear it. Even though I disagree with him, I nearly always learn something from hearing his perspective.

    #1136051

    squeak
    Participant

    Popa, now be fair. Trump most definitely is a bigot, that’s what so many millions of rubes see in him. None of the liberals would leave if he would win (though you’ll never know for sure) just like none of the normal people actually left when Obama won despite their pledges. Turns out they should’ve.

    #1136052

    cv
    Participant

    “If we elect a bigot like Trump or a theocrat like Cruz we may have to leave.”

    *

    And if we elect H. Clinton?

    #1136053

    Joseph
    Participant

    My point about the US crime statistics is that most of the violence constitutes from drug dealers killing each other, domestic violence (by husband, boyfriend) and other similar and other situations that have little effect on Jews and generally occur in neighborhoods away from where we live.

    For a better example look at the crime statistics in the police precints in Boro Park, Midwood, Williamsburg, Monsey, Lakewood, Teaneck, Toronto, Melbourne, etc., and what you’ll find is that they are from the safest areas in town with a very very low level of violence.

    You’re also ignoring the number of deaths and injuries Israelis suffer every time a new war with other countries or Hamas, Hizballah, etc. or intifada breaks out and the number of military deaths and injuries, in addition to any civilian deaths and injuries.

    #1136054

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph & Akuperma, can you get eight more gilgulim to join you? Do frum Jews never stray out of their neighborhoods? Never ride the subway, never go to shopping malls? As for the reason for Israel’s survival, it is Hashem (remember Him?). He stopped Rommel at El Alamein. He created Arab disunity and cowardice in battle. He created the Arab Spring that has them in disarray. He created the Syrian civil war that has them bogged down. He is bringing about the Geula and will bring down any empire that tries to stop it just as he dismmembered the Ottoman emppire and caused the sun to set on the British empire.

    #1136055

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph: Here is the bottom line. Hashem promised us that when the time comes and we start coming home, the Land will bloom again after centuries of laying fallow. That happened.

    We also know that the Geulah, which is around the corner, will be like Yetzias Mitzrayim and that 80% of Jews will not make it. Those choosing not to come home will be in big trouble.

    I also heard from a number of “Frum” Jews who said, “There were always Jew in Golus, so when Moshiach comes we don’t want to go. History is not on their side. Decision time is getting shorter and shorter. Make all the excuses you want, but it won’t serve you well.

    You can also play with whatever statistics you want, but the per capita murder rate in Israel is far lower than in the U.S. Anti-semetic crimes are growing rapidly. What is happening in Europe will happen in the U.S. to the point that even you can’t deny it.

    #1136056

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chazal also tell us in the Gemora that Hashem will allow Jews to “be hunted down like animals in the field” if we create a State in EY and violate our oath of “Shelo yaal bachomah”. That happens to be the worst punishment described anywhere in the Torah. Killed and hunted like animals. Those are the words. “ani matir es basarchem ktzvios uk’ailos hasadeh” – “I will permit your flesh [to the goyim] like game in the fields.”

    #1136057

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph: Again, we were not allowed to fight to regain the Land and we didn’t. We are allowed to fight to protect ourselves.

    All the signs for the impending Geulah are happening. Deny them all you want, but it is a fact.

    The gates to Eretz Yisroel are open now to return home. There are valid reasons that some people have for not doing so right now, like elderly parents. You on the other hand, have been sounding like the Meraglim.

    #1136058

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, please cite the place where they say that. As for the Three Oaths, I have posted on many occasions why even if they were once in force they are no longer in force. To summarize:

    1. They are aggadata and are not brought down in any of the halachic codes.

    2. The goyim violated their part of the bargain on several occasions.

    3. They agreed to a Jewish state at the San Remo Conference so it is not rebellion (Rav Meir Simcha).

    4. The oaths were only for 1,000 years (Rav Chaim Vital).

    5. Events have shown that Hashem has called (Rav Soloveichik).

    #1136059

    Joseph
    Participant

    Except that we see the very fulfillment of what Chazal warned us. We see Jews r”l being hunted down and killed in the streets of Israel ever since the zionists violated the oath, exactly as Chazal warned us. Since the violation, Israel has become the most dangerous place for a Jew to live compared to any other major Jewish center of population.

    Exactly as Chazal warned us.

    Just because the goyim violated their oath does not give us permission to violate our oaths. And it is brought down l’halacha. Search this website; it had been addressed and answered extensively.

    #1136060

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Anyone liberals disagree with is a bigot.”

    If you think Trump is not a bigot you are a fool.

    #1136061

    charliehall
    Participant

    “For a better example look at the crime statistics in the police precints in Boro Park, Midwood, Williamsburg”

    I did. Boro Park is among the safer neighborhoods but the others aren’t.

    https://maps.nyc.gov/crime/

    #1136062

    charliehall
    Participant

    “And if we elect H. Clinton?”

    Not much will change. The Republicans will block everything she wants to do in foreign and domestic policy.

    #1136063

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you think Trump is not a bigot you are a fool.

    Want to have that discussion?

    Tell us the 3 most bigoted things he’s done/said. In context.

    And define “bigoted.”

    #1136064

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    “And if we elect H. Clinton?”

    Not much will change. The Republicans will block everything she wants to do in foreign and domestic policy.

    So then what’s the point of electing her. Use your vote to elect a liberal Republican who will be able to actually do something.

    #1136065

    Joseph
    Participant

    “elect a liberal Republican”

    Rudy Giuliani isn’t running. Chris Christie is the closest you have this round.

    #1136067

    Phil
    Participant

    “If we elect a bigot like Trump or a theocrat like Cruz we may have to leave.”

    Charlie,

    After seven years without a word against anti-Israel Obama you bash Trump and Cruz and then call another Jew a fool?

    Sick.

    #1136068

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Just saw this thread- and,of course, Joseph’s fantasmagoric comments. Very easy to state statistics but you know what they say: ‘statistics, statistics and lies”. This about sums up his comments. Last time I checked my history books, jews were killed for the last two thousand years in every corner of the globe, culminating, of course, in the Holocaust. Just because right now, there are not many Jews killed in Europe or even the US guarantees nothing. Rav Teichtal zz’l had it right: European Jewry turned its back o Eretz Yisroel and tragedy followed. Let us not repeat that awful mistake again.

    #1136069

    Avi K
    Participant

    Papa,

    1. Painting all Hispanic immigrants as violent criminals (

    2. Painting all refugees as terrorists,

    3. Opposing birthright citizenship contending that the Fourteenth Amendment does not say what it explicitly says (All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside).

    Trump is a vulgar demagogue. Hillary is a criminal. Cruz is great and a philo-Semite albeit a bit abrasive. Rubio is also good. Maybe Rubio for POTUS with Nikki Haley (mainstream conservative, woman, daughter of immigrants from India, which is an up-and-coming group) for Veep and Cruz for an important judicial position (Alan Dershowitz described him as “off-the-wall brilliant and there are going to be some important cases on religious freedom in the coming years).

    #1136070

    Joseph
    Participant

    Robby, the point is to counter the zionists’ false narrative that the State of Israel is a “safehaven” for Jews. As can plainly be seen, Israel is not physically safer than living elsewhere. Au contraire.

    And Israel is no safer for Jews from facing a future war that Jews are subject to the effects of war than Jews living elsewhere.

    #1136071

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, see Yoel 3:5 with Malbim.

    #1136072

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. Painting all Hispanic immigrants as violent criminals (

    2. Painting all refugees as terrorists,

    3. Opposing birthright citizenship contending that the Fourteenth Amendment does not say what it explicitly says (All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside).

    I see. So instead of providing me with what he did/said, you provided me with what you think it implies. That very effectively prevents me from responding, ending the conversation.

    Anyway, the challenge was to Charlie. I can’t be expected to respond to three things from every poster on the CR.

    #1136073

    dbrim
    Participant

    Sounds to me that we have some gilgulim of the Miraglim posting here. According to Rov HaPoskim:

    Aliya L’achoma deosn’t apply tothe matzav today (again , Rov HaPoskim, not Satmar)

    According to Rov HaPoskim:

    living in Eretz Yisroel is a mitzvah b’zman hazeh, and many hold it’s a chiyuv (see R’Teichtal Eim HaBanim for mikoros)

    Eretz Yisroel is and always was the most heilige place on earth – frum Yiddin live here for the ruchnius, to show loyalty to Hashem. There is no collective reason not to move to Eretz Yisroel, safety, krum government, or other. Just individual reasons for yechidim with guidance from their daas torah. The rest of us SHOULD be seriously considering moving to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1136074

    Avi K
    Participant

    Trump said “The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc.” He did not say that, in fact, most immigrants were not wanted by their previous governments for political, religious or class reasons. Certainly Jews were not wanted by the Czarist government.

    The above are from the Wikipedia.

    #1136075

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sorry charlie, the challenge is to Charlie.

    #1136076

    Joseph
    Participant

    Not just Rov Haposkim, but virtually the unanimous psak gedolei harabbonim was that it is forbidden to take the land by force. And as Chazal warned if it is taken prior to the proper time, Jews will be hunted down in the streets like animals, something we’ve r”l been witnessing in the streets of Israel for the last 68 years.

    #1136077

    charliehall
    Participant

    “After seven years without a word against anti-Israel Obama”

    Obama isn’t anti-Israel.

    “then call another Jew a fool?”

    Yes, anyone, Jew or non-Jew, who doesn’t think Trump is a bigot is a fool. Just like the foolish Jews who supported Mussolini (and there were a lot of them).

    Since some folks here think it is ok to be bigoted towards non-Jews, I will offer some of what Trump said about Jews — to the Republican Jewish Coalition:

    “I’m a negotiator like you folks. We’re negotiators….Is there anybody that doesn’t renegotiate deals in this room? This room negotiates that.”

    “You’re not gonna support me because I don’t want your money. You want to control your politicians, that’s fine.”

    Had any Democrat said anything like this, everyone here would be on him like white on rice. And the criticism would be absolutely deserved. And he has said far worse about other religious and ethnic groups.

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