November 20, 2011 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #600697
Is it true that everyone nowadays is a tinok shenisba, as I was told by a rav? Why?November 21, 2011 9:03 am at 9:03 am #829615kapustaParticipant
I might be making this up, but there is a concept of yeridas hadoros which basically means that every generation is on a lower level than the one before it. Now we are so far, we are all just considered tinok shenishba. (Whats the proper dikduk?)November 21, 2011 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #829616RSRHMember
mik5: Your rav was probably referring to the vast majority of non-frum Jews, who are adjudges tinokos shenishbu. basically, this means they cannot be held responsible for their failure to observe the Torah, and the fact that they don’t follow halacha does not impact their personal status (i.e., they are not ajudged mumarim l’hachis).
The concept of tinok shenisha originally refers to a young Jewish child captured at a young age and held in captivity by non-Jews for an extended period. The influence of being raised without a Torah education and outside a Torah environment is considered an excuse (not a justification) for why the grown up child fails to follow halacha.
In the contemporary context, it refers to all those that have been raised by secularized or non-observant parents, who are excused for their non-observance of halacha because of their being raised in an environment and culture in which Torah-observance is so foreign a concept, that they cannot be expected to have any regard for it.November 21, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #829617optimusprimeMember
Concerning Zionists in Eretz Yisrael, it was a Machlokes between the Brisker Rav and the Chazon Ish. Rabbi Chaim Yaakov Goldvicht asked both Gedolei HaDor if he would be allowed to open up a yeshiva (today it is Yeshivat Kerem B’Yavneh) for the Zionists. The Brisker Rav held they were the same as one who is not Jewish. The Chazon Ish, alternatively, held they were tinok shenishba and allowed the yeshiva to open up.November 21, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #829618Derech HaMelechMember
I was told by my R”K that its not so poshut to say all non-frum Jews are under the classification of tinok shenishba. He explained that there are different opinions among the poskim and it could be that the average non-frum might not have that classification.November 21, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #829619
DH – I don’t know what the Nafka Mina would be? They say R’ Moshe held that Jews growing up in the NY area don’t have a Din of Tinok Shenishba. The only Nafka Mina would be how they are judged in Shomayim.November 21, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #829620msseekerMember
With the info explosion the question became more complex. Almost any Jew, anywhere, can be as knowledgeable nowadays about Judaism as Jews growing up in the NY area in R’ Moshe’s time.November 21, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #829621ZosHaTorahParticipant
I have a friend, at the beginning of his B’T journey ask me today if it’s better to know the halacha, but still not be on a level to do it, or if it’s better to avoid learning the halacha at all, so he will not be required to follow it. I’m curious if you would answer the question the same way i did?November 21, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #829622
Health: There are many nafka minas in whether a person’s halachic status is tinok shenishba, mumar l’teavon, mumar l’chachis, mechalel shabbos befarhesia, bephnay asara. But besides all the technical aspects speaking and relating to the different types in particular about Jewish subjects is very different and requires different levels of care and focus. Da ma she tashiv. There is a sefer by Rabbi M. Becher and R. M. Newman called Avasos Ahava that deals with much of this as it applies to kiruv. I recommend it.November 21, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #829623zahavasdadParticipant
If you live in a place with an Eruv and the Eruv is down one week and you see people carrying you are NOT supposed to tell them its downNovember 21, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #829624lolkatzMember
Is an addict a tinok shenishba, as he no longr has any control over his actions?November 21, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #829625flowersParticipant
ZosHaTorah: How did you answer the question?
lolkatz: I highly doubt it.November 21, 2011 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #829626ZosHaTorahParticipant
I answered the question saying my Rav told me it’s better to learn the halacha and not yet implement it (as opposed to avoiding learning it at all in order not be held liable), because if you know the halacha, at least you have a chance to eventually putting it into practice. And in the meantime, you’re not chaiv. One should only put the observance into practice once they can no longer stand the idea of continuing to do the aveira.
For instance, if one wants to drive a long distance on Shabbos to get to shul, and that’s where they are currently “holding,” then so be it. Let them come to shul. Eventually they will no longer be able to “tuen the key in the ignition,” but this means they’ll likely stop coming to shul. This is a dangerous transition time when you can lose a B’T. So it’s imperitive to encourage them to move into an eruv once they no longer are willing to drive on Shabbos.November 21, 2011 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #829627WIYMember
An addict is a person with a very powerful drive towards something that is destructive for him/her. That doesn’t mean they don’t have Bechira. They do, its just MUCH harder for them to say no.
Tinuk Shenishba is one who is clueless about the fact that he is Jewish or is born into an religious family and has no understanding of the fact that he is bound by Torah law to live as a Jew.November 21, 2011 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #829628
wiy – an irreligious family
zoshatorah – Chazal said that if you learn about about a certain mitzvah but are unable to do it, Hashem counts it as though you did do it. For from Yidden, this means stuff about the Beis HaMakidosh; but for frei Yidden, I assume it can mean stuff that THEY are unable to do at their particular level.
Even if you don’t keep a certain mitzvah, learning about it is in and of itself a mitzvah. In fact, study is greater than deed, because study leads to action. Action does not lead to study. Or so said the holy Rambam.November 22, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #829629WIYMember
I meant irreligious thanks.November 22, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #829630
Mik5, there is no such thing as ” what they can do at their level”. If someone understands that Torah is emes, he be’etzem must keep everything. Just, if someone is not such a tzadik, Rabbonim might decide not to push him for fear he might go the other way.November 22, 2011 3:51 am at 3:51 am #829631moishyParticipant
kapusta- the proper dikduk maybe is tinokos shenishbu??November 22, 2011 5:06 am at 5:06 am #829632
MDD: That is true in theory. In reality, if you would force that on every Ba’al T’shuvah then we would have no one ever be Chozer Bis’shuvah. That’s why we let the Kiruv professionals help each person determine what they are willing to accept and when.November 22, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #829633
Sam2, I would not say no one. I know of cases, where the BT kept whatever he knew at the time. He added to his observance as he learnt more.November 22, 2011 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #829634
mdd: ok, but obviously no one is perfect and every Jew – even FFBs – are at a different level. Especially with BTs. Don’t judge.November 22, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #829635
Mik5, “do not judge” is a Christian principle. In Judaism, we do judge. According to certain rules, though. ” No one is perfect” is no excuse. If the Torah demands something, every Jew is expected to fulfill it. If he does not, it is an aveira. With all that that word implies.
Btw, I am a BT.November 22, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #829636BTGuyParticipant
You are correct. Every Jew is different with different potential and different capabilities and
different ways to handle hurdles and different everything. Labels really dont add up to anything
in the long run. We just have to keep growing in actions and kavana. Let Hashem deal with
the details only He knows.November 22, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #829637
MDD: “Do not judge” is not a Jewish principle because Judaism never had to deal with a mass of people who weren’t frum and didn’t completely leave Jewish society at the same time (we had similar cases in Bayis Sheini, but there the non-Mesora Jews were actively trying to sway the Frum Jews, which is no longer the case nowadays). Nowadays we have to deal with an issue that we’ve never dealt with before. If we still has Misos Beis Din these non-Frum Jews would be in trouble. How to deal with them would be up to a Sanhedrin. For us, we just need to live our own lives and let the Kiruv professionals and their Poskim decide the best way to help the most Jews do the most Mitzvos possible.November 22, 2011 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #829638
mdd: Judging your fellow favorably is a mitzvah aseh. The Gemara relates that a rabbi once sneaked into olam haba and saw that everything was upside down. The righteous are on the bottom because they’re held to a higher standard and are punished for the slightest of sins, whereas the rashas are on top because they are held to a lower standard and are rewarded for any good thoughts/ deeds they may have.
Chazal said that if a person wishes to fulfill a certain mitzvah but can’t, Hashem counts it as though he did.
Although, in theory, every Jew is obligated in every mitzvah and can fulfill it if he really wants to.November 22, 2011 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #829639
I’d be dead if there were a Sanhedrin today.November 22, 2011 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #829640
” Do not judge” is not a Jewish principle be’etzem. The halochos of judging are found in sefer “Chofets Chaim”.November 22, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #829641
Mik5, the 1-st paragragh, you got it wrong. No time now to elaborate.
About wanting to do a mitsva, but being unable. That does not include “can’t” because of yetzer horah.November 22, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #829642
Mik5, the 1-st paragragh, you got it wrong.
I’ll say!! That Chazal says the poor and insignificant good people in this world were on top there and the rich, powerful and influential were on the bottom!! But acc. to a big Rav the Ehrlicher yidden (ie full time learners and talmidei chachamim) are judged by a different standard altogether and were not observed.November 22, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #829643
littleapple -“Health: There are many nafka minas in whether a person’s halachic status is tinok shenishba, mumar l’teavon, mumar l’chachis, mechalel shabbos befarhesia, bephnay asara.”
This is exactly what I was refering to -find me a Navka Mina L’maysah between whether they are a Tinok Shnishba or a Mumar. And don’t tell me Mumar L’hachas because that (almost) doesn’t exist!November 22, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #829644
Health: Serving food to a mumar may be asur because he/she will not say a bracha while it is mutar by a tinok shenishbu if one has a general cavana to be mashpia/mekarev on him/her, many other similar shailas of liphnei ever or misayaa l’dvar aveirah and other navka minas appear in the sefer I mentioned above.November 22, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #829645
Before everyone keeps misquoting it, what the Gemara actually says (Bava Basra 11a or 10a, somewhere around there I believe) is “those who are above (in this world) are below (there) and those who are below (in this world) are above (there).” Everyone has a different P’shat as to what that Aggadta means. You can’t quote someone else’s P’shat and say that any given P’shat is wrong.November 22, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #829646
littleapple – I highly doubt it’s as clear cut as you say. Let’s say a Mumar is related to you -you can’t give them anything to eat? I’d say you can because of Sholom. Let’s say the Tinok Shenishba is at a Kiruv party and the guy running it says -“Let’s e/o make a Blessing to G-d first and this is what you say -etc.” and the TS says -“No I won’t -I’m an atheist”. Would you be able to invite him back next time? I doubt it.November 22, 2011 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #829647BTGuyParticipant
You are becoming more and more interesting to read. I am enjoying your perspective on things. Everyone is interesting, but it takes time to learn who is who, etc.
I just want to throw into the ring that mik5 is talking about nowadays. It seems Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky said, “Each individual has a chiyuv to be mekarev people.”
I have also heard it said in the name of more than one gadol, that frum Jews are responsible, but that we dont know how to accomplish this.
So, whether there were twelve tribes back in the day with different aspects to them, such as one learned and the other supported them, or the world of today with frei or frum, etc… no matter how you slice and dice this, on a macro level, we are all connected and in the same boat, even though individual chesbons are duly noted.November 22, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #829648
Health: You make a good point that you cannot posken w/o the details of a given situation and besides in kiruv you need alot of siyata d’shmaya but one thing I found is that one who was upfront in your face with a statement like “I am an atheist” would often be easier to work with and could progress and change than another because he could be challenged and shown he is not able to back up his belief as well as a Torah based one. Another big nafka mina btw which imho people are not mevakesh aitza in enough is whether it is mutar to invite a Jew for Shabbos who will refuse to sleep over and end up driving due to the invitation.November 22, 2011 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #829649
If a frei Yid is a tinok she’nishba, you can not say loshon hora about him. If he is not, you may.November 23, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #829650
“If a frei Yid is a tinok she’nishba, you can not say loshon hora about him. If he is not, you may.”
Who said? Why not?November 23, 2011 2:13 am at 2:13 am #829651
littleapple -“Another big nafka mina btw which imho people are not mevakesh aitza in enough is whether it is mutar to invite a Jew for Shabbos who will refuse to sleep over and end up driving due to the invitation.”
This is just like the last Nafka Mina -NOT! If it’s a family member you could invite as long as you don’t tell them to drive!November 23, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #829652
Health, not to send you too far for sources — Rav Berkovitz from Yerushalaim in his English sefer on loshon horah.
The reason for this psak is simple. A tinok she’nishba is doing aveiros be’shogeg. Doing aveiros be’shogeg does not take one out of the status of “achicha”.November 23, 2011 6:12 am at 6:12 am #829653
mdd – Who says that B’shogeg is considered B’chlal Amesecha? Is this his own Chidush or does he say he got this from s/o -somewhere? Oh, I think I know who Rabbi Berkowitz is -Did he come from California and Silver Spring and originaly learnt in NIRC?November 23, 2011 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #829654
Health, it is a poshute zach. If someone is frum, but does not know certain hilchos Shabbos, he is mechalel Shabbos be’shogeg. Is he be’chlal “achicha”? Obviously, yes. The same is with a real tinok she’nishba.
Ask any Rov about it, if you do not want to rely on what I said.November 23, 2011 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #829655
Health: Inviting a family member or any Jew whom you know will drive and they will reject an offer to stay over is being mshtatef to their chillul Shabbos and is assur. If there is a reasonable chance they will stay and they will be positively influenced then some poskim are matir. I always ask before doing it and I will tell you I know this is a difficult thing for some people to do but the atmosphere of kedushas Shabbos that it builds in a home is worth it and when presented with important occasions I have found that my non-frum relatives have been willing to sacrifice the 25 hours and join us.November 24, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #829656
Health, look in Yore Deah 159 at the end that it ossur to lend money on interest to a tinok she’nishba, which is not the case with a mumar.November 24, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #829657
littleapple – Anybody can say Ossur -that is easy. Do you have any Gedoley Poskim whom Assur? Anyway in my family -my Zaida was Mattir and he once was a Rov. I told you a Svara of Sholom, but there could be other reasons.November 24, 2011 5:54 am at 5:54 am #829658
mdd -“Is he be’chlal “achicha”? Obviously, yes. The same is with a real tinok she’nishba.”
I agree with the sometimes Shoggeg part, but I’m not sure if s/o who doesn’t keep anything is still “Amecha”. I think I have a Diyuk from the Chofetz Chaim like this but I’m not sure yet. I spent some time learning the C.C., but not enough. He is Marich on this Inyan a lot in a couple of places in the C.C.
“Health, look in Yore Deah 159”
Bli Neder when I have some time.
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