Tishah BeAv and Yom HaShoah

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  • #1568871

    simcha613
    Participant

    I imagine most people would stand for the United States anthem so as not to offend people. And yet it’s okay to offend other Jews by not standing during the siren in memory of the Holocaust? If it’s not prohibited to stand during the siren, what gives us the right to ignore their sensitivities and do something offensive? We’re allowed to cause hurt to other Jews just because they’re secular?

    and maybe they should respect our right to ignore their memorial siren, but because they’re doing something wrong, that gives us the right to do something wrong to them? That gives us the right to offend and hurt them?

    #1568867

    simcha613
    Participant

    Joseph… It’s interesting how you say the holocaust happened because of “our” sins but then you proceed to list flaws in other groups and sects of Jews. It’s always easy to claim tragedies happen due to our sins without the need to do any selfies introspection… Since it was everyone else’s fault.

    #1568912

    laskern
    Participant

    simcha613 – If we would not commemorate the holocaust at all, you would be right, but on Tisha Beav we sit on the floor and say kinus for it recognizing what Rashi says on הנגלות לנו ולבנינו עד עולם if we don’t do something about what is open, we all become responsible and the majority gets punished.

    #1568915

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rambam Hilchos Taanis 1:3 says that we have a responsibility to recognize why we are fasting and not take it as an occurrence because if do, Hashem will also make things occur. Commemorating the holocaust on Tisha Beav makes us thing to realize why it happened and what we can do to improve ourselves.

    #1568901

    Joseph
    Participant

    Simcha613: Most frum Yidden will stand for the America anthem because they are American patriots; not “so as not to offend people.” They happily want to stand for the Medina Shel Chesed, as Rav Moshe called it. OTOH, the atheist state of Israel, born and living in sin, carries no such allegiance among the Bnei Torah who opposed its creation and the Zionist’s continual policies. The frum living in Eretz Yisroel (that you’re complaining about) are not Israeli patriots.

    If Christians are offended that a Jew doesn’t bow to the Pope when meeting him, as is customarily expected of those who meet him, we will still not grant the Pope that honor when meeting him in order not to offend others.

    #1568948

    laskern
    Participant

    Moderator:

    Why can’t we always edit our posts? We misspell soumething like thing which should be think above. Sometimes a word is left out.

    #1569060

    simcha613
    Participant

    Lasekrn- I think I partially agree with you. I’m not talking about establishing a new day of commemorating the Holocaust lechatchilah or replacing Tishah BeAv c”v. I am talking about that now, once another day exists, is there a value in commemorating the Holocaust together as a people as a whole in addition to Tishah BeAv? As a secondary question, if not observing Yom HaShoah (specifically not pausing in silence during the siren) causes offense and hurt to other Jews who do take the Holocaust siren seriously, is that not reason enough to pause… especially during the time of year when we are trying to rectify “lo nahagu kavod zeh lazeh?”

    Joseph- Let’s ignore for the fact that appreciating the chessed that America does for us while ignoring all of the chesed that Medinas Yisroel does for us is quite confusing to me… standing for the siren on Holocaust Memorial Day is not about recognizing the medina, it’s about memorializing the Holocaust. Is the hate for the medina so strong that you are willing to ignore a Holocaust memorial siren because of your attitude towards the medina? Even if you felt that the siren has no inherent value, is the hate to the medina so strong that you can rationalize offending and hurting other Jews by ignoring the siren they take so seriously just because of your attitude towards the medina?

    Bowing to the pope seems to be a poor comparison as that at the very least smells of avodah zarah. It is likely assur D’Oraysa and offending others is no excuse. As far as I know, there is no issur to stand for the siren. Even if you want to somehow argue it’s Chukas HaGoyim (which I think is a very hard argument to make), it’s no more Chukas HaGoyim then standing for a secular national anthem which doesn’t seem to bother you.

    #1569294

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at Shut Yechaveh Daas 1:43 discussing the importance of saying Nachem even though some wanted to change it.

    #1569388

    jdb
    Participant

    As a frum Jew living in Israel, I do both. My son’s talmiday Torah (that’s what they call a cheder here) has special classes and education on Yom hashoah, which is great because they are closed on Tisha BeAv. We say an extra kapitel tehillim on Yom Hashoah, and have an extra shiur or two. And we mourn them in context on Tisha BeAv. You can be a frum Jew and not be poresh min hatsibur.

    At work, there is a moment of silence. Some people quietly say tehillim. But it’s a beautiful thing to see everyone stop their day and just remember, cry, feel the loss.

    May we be zocheh to the geulah shelayma very soon.

    #1569424

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    It’s an AYLOR question. Some rabbanim who say not to commemorate say you should stop if you are in public place.

    Hashem wants us to be happy, we have a mitzvah to do that every day. Holocaust day is no exception, and we have no reason to be sad or commemorate anything. It’s more about the sirens which is a goyish concept. Why does the government need to tell me how I should commemorate the holocaust? I’ll do what I want in my own way.

    #1569406

    Long island Yid
    Participant

    I still haven’t seen anyone here explain why tach vetat is okay to have a separate day for it and not say ‘oh just include it on Tisha Bav’. Even more so is a kasha about ‘av harachamim’ which is for the crusades and is not only given its own special time, its done on EVERY Shabbos! When you’re not even supposed to do aveilos on shabbos. Even more so the crusades supposedly ‘only’ killed maybe 10-20 thousand yidden not 6 million!

    #1569458

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We don’t universally keep a day to commemorate Tach V’tat, and Shabbos is not a commemoration of the Crusades.

    When Rav Herzog suggested Yom Hashoah to the Brisker Rav, he responded by quoting the paytan from מי יתן ראשי מים.

    שִׂימוּ נָא עַל לְבַבְכֶם מִסְפֵּד מַר לְקָשְׁרָה,
    כִּי שְׁקוּלָה הֲרִיגָתָם לְהִתְאַבֵּל וּלְהִתְעַפְרָה,
    כִּשְׂרֵפַת בֵּית אֱלֹקינוּ הָאוּלָם וְהַבִּירָה,
    וְכִי אֵין לְהוֹסִיף מוֹעֵד שֶׁבֶר וְתַבְעֵרָה,
    וְאֵין לְהַקְדִּים זוּלָתִי לְאַחֲרָהּ,
    תַּחַת כֵּן הַיּוֹם לִוְיָתִי אֲעוֹרְרָה,
    וְאֶסְפְּדָה וְאֵילִילָה וְאֶבְכֶּה בְּנֶפֶשׁ מָרָה,

    וְאַנְחָתִי כָּבְדָה מִבֹּקֶר עַד עָרֶב

    #1569477

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    shopping

    “Hashem wants us to be happy, we have a mitzvah to do that every day.”

    source please.

    ” It’s more about the sirens which is a goyish concept.”
    Why is it Goyish? Is using a siren to announce the start of Shabbos goyish?

    Long Island Yid
    “I still haven’t seen anyone here explain why tach vetat is okay to have a separate day for it and not say ‘oh just include it on Tisha Bav”

    thats because there isnt one. And the reason chareidim don’t commemorate Yom Hashoa is not because of that fake transparent reason

    #1569633

    simcha613
    Participant

    Regarding the sirens being a Goyish practice, it’s not so clear how strong that argument is.

    Using silence as a response to tragedy is a very logical response. We take a second to shut down what’s going on around us to think about the tragedy that we are mourning about. It’s hard to say that something this logical, something not based in avodah zarah, is something that Goyish.

    Not only that, but it also has roots in the Torah and Chazal. When Nadav and Avihu died, Aharon was silent. Iyov’s friends sat in silence with him for seven days.The Gemara in Berachos 6b says that “the merit of attending house of mourning lies in maintaining silence.” Even in our Mesorah, silent contemplation, expressing silent solidarity with our brethren, is a very Jewish concept indeed.

    Using a siren to signal to the masses when to be silent together, as a tzibur, to commemorate a national tragedy, is pragmatic. The fact that we took that idea from the Goyim doesn’t make it anymore of a Goyish practice then using the styles of Goyim (like a suit and tie), using their inventions (cars and planes), or their ideas (I would assume many fundraising, education, and kiruv strategies are based on strategies that were discovered and developed by non-Jews). Non-Jews can have good ideas too, and when they aren’t based in Avodah Zarah, we can utilize those ideas for a higher purpose.

    #1569644

    Long island Yid
    Participant

    DaasYochid said that
    “We don’t universally keep a day to commemorate Tach V’tat, and Shabbos is not a commemoration of the Crusades”
    Tach V’tat may not be universally commemorated but it is commemorated and considered the norm to do.

    And “the Shabbos is not a commemoration for the crusades”. Well we certainly are saying a tefillah about it EVERY shabbos year round, so if those Rishonim that instituted that, then SURELY the Holocaust which was multiple times more horrific should perhaps more certainly have a specific tfilah every shabbos. Just like the crusades.

    #1569800

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Tach V’tat may not be universally commemorated but it is commemorated and considered the norm to do.

    I don’t understand your point. Are you claiming more people commemorate tach v’tat than the Holocaust? I don’t think that’s true.

    And “the Shabbos is not a commemoration for the crusades”. Well we certainly are saying a tefillah about it EVERY shabbos year round, so if those Rishonim that instituted that, then SURELY the Holocaust which was multiple times more horrific should perhaps more certainly have a specific tfilah every shabbos. Just like the crusades.

    So you’re making a new point – that we should commemorate the Holocaust every Shabbos just as we do the Crusades. I can’t speak for anyone else, but when I say Av Harachamim, I don’t specifically have in mind those who died al kiddush Hashem during the Crusades, I have in mind all those who died al kiddush Hashem throughout the generations, including in the Holocaust.

    #1570243

    Naftush-2
    Participant

    The Warsaw ghetto uprising began on erev Pessah. Those who set Yom HaShoah as they did realized that all of Pessah had to pass first and chose a date that falls in the week following Hag Sheni.

    #1570510

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: There’s nothing unserious that the Warsaw Uprising was a grievious error on the part of those who organized it.

    #1570593

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    It most definitely is unserious as it isnt based on fact.
    and even if it was it wasnt made with the proper sensitivity to the dire circumstances they faced.

    IF you had said something along the lines of “with the benefit of hindsight it seems like the uprising was a bad idea” or something like that., you’d be wrong, but at least probably not offensive.
    (The reason it isnt based on fact is it isnt like more Jews died in Warsaw than, say Lodz where there was no uprising. Read about the Holocause, read about the Wannsee conference, its not like the NAzis were plnning to leave the ghetto alone until they fought back

    At any rate, I was under the impression that you believed in daas torah
    R’ Menachem Ziemba Ztzl HYd is quoted as having said

    “Sanctification of the Divine Name manifests itself in varied ways….In the past, during
    religious persecution, we were required by the law “to give up our lives even for the least
    essential practice.” In the present, however, we are faced by an arch foe, whose unparalleled
    ruthlessness and total annihilation purposes know no bounds. Halachah demands that we
    fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of
    Sanctification of the Divine Name”

    I know, I know, you dnt believe he said it spare, me as I said you arent being serious.

    #1570647

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    ubiquitin, isn’t it a mitzvah to serve Hashem bisimcha? Using the siren to commemerate something is a goyishe idea and many rabbanim hold it to be assur.

    #1570715

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq, it was clear from even before it began that the Warsaw Uprising could not possibly defeat the German Army. It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto. And that there was no possible positive outcome from having an uprising that could save Jewish lives rather than result in the immediate massacre of thousands and thousands of Jews.

    #1570753

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Shoping
    “It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto.”

    your history is backwards.
    The decision to liquidate the ghettio was before the uprising.
    Its not like the Germans were letting to JEws live in peace minding their own business, when the ungrateful Jews started shooting at them . Again look up the Wannsee conference, note its date.
    This is the problem I alluded to earlier in my second comment on this thread . You dont seem to have a solid understanding of the holocaust, and its history (you arent alone) If only the Jews were peaceful and listened then they wouldn’t have been massacred

    “it was clear from even before it began that the Warsaw Uprising could not possibly defeat the German Army.”
    obviously, though that was never the goal

    Shopping
    “ubiquitin, isn’t it a mitzvah to serve Hashem bisimcha?”
    Is it? Does this apply t oall times? Are yo usupposed to be besimcha on tisha baav? at a funeral?

    ” Using the siren to commemorate something is a goyishe idea”

    Source please. Since you are condemning many religious Jews who announce the start of Shabbos with a siren. You better have a good source

    ” and many rabbanim hold it to be assur.”
    which ones?

    #1570821

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: 1. Don’t put words in my mouth or create strawmen. Nobody said anything about if “Jews were peaceful and listened”. Refraining from taking up armed fighting against an army you cannot defeat is not equivalent to listening to what you’re told.

    2. “obviously, though that was never the goal”.

    If that wasn’t the goal, what WAS the goal? Martyring themselves and ten thousand others as “heroes” for “fighting back”, as the Zionists glorify them for? Otherwise what did they expect or hope to accomplish. It is clearly yourself who fails to grasp history, the Holocaust or the futility of shooting when the obvious result will be immediate death of oneself and many many others.

    #1570867

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Words, have meaning, they have implication you said and I quote “It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto” The strong implication is that if not for the uprising there wouldnt have been a massacre. I don’t know how else to interpret your words.
    I also dont know how you explain that the Jews of say, Lodz shared a similar fate, although there was no uprising. (See if you would read more you would know that)

    “what WAS the goal? ”

    I quote you again from R’ Ziemba “In the present, however, we are faced by an arch foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and total annihilation purposes know no bounds. Halachah demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name”

    Kiddush Shomayim was the goal.
    OR to quote Shimshon “Tamus Nafshi im pelishtim” (if you deny R’ Ziemba’s words do you deny Shimshon’s ) There is no chiyuv to be “laag vakeles bagoyim” that is in fact a chilul Hashem. Often in our history there was not much that could be done. OTher times, the benefit of waiting it out outweighed the Kiddush Hashem of showing them that Jewish blood isnt free. But at this juncture “Halachah demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name”

    #1570895

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq:

    1. What is your authoritative source of your alleged quote from Rav Ziemba?

    2. As Shopping pointed out, the rabbonim by and large opposed armed conflict in the ghetto when there was no prospects of benefits of it saving Jewish lives and there was very much prospects of it immediately costing countless Jewish lives.

    3. Throughout Jewish history, as noted by Chazal in the Gemora before the Churban and the zealots looking to fight the Romans against the admonishins of Chazal, Rav Yochonon Been Zakai, Beitar and countless other times recorded in Jewish history before and after of us not engaging in a fight we couldn’t win.

    #1571033

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its easy for someone to discuss armed rebellion who did not live in the Ghetto, this is a psak best answered by someone who knew the facts on the ground and not someone pasking from America. Being that a Gadol was in the Ghetto and knew the facts in the ghetto, His Psak is the most relizble

    #1571050

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    1. Its in “Warsaw Ghetto diaries” by Hillel Seidman. An absolutely excellent book and first hand eyewitness account of life in the ghetto up to and including its destruction. I think it is out of print, but if you can get your hands on it, I highly recommend
    Other eyewitness reported similar statements though I do not have those references off hand

    2. I dont see were shopping pointed that out.

    2&3 it depends on the circumstances. As you may know Rabbi Akiva DID support Bar Kochba. for most of Jewish history hiding made the most sense. you cant fight the czar’s army , every so often there is a little “demonstration” best thing to do is hide in basement wait it out until it passes. The holocaust was different. it wasn’t just a “little demonstration” You are making the same mistake that another poster (and many in our community) made namely “that the holocaust wasn’t all that “special”, and was merely a mid-20th century manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries (and millenia)” Just like during a pogrom the best bet was hiding in your basement for a few days until things quiet down, so too in 1940’s . some Gedolim made this mistake in the 40’s I am not for a second criticizing them, generally that was the best approach. But not this time .
    Again look at Lodz where there was no uprising (not to the same extent at least) while I dont think exact statistics are easy to come by, I don’t think more Jews survived Lodz than Warsaw.

    #1571055

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph
    (this is a follow up to my most recent reply hopefully it goes up second, though its shorter so may go up first.)

    I am not saying that the only correct approach was armed resistance. (though R’ Ziemba is quoted as having said that). I am in no way criticizing those who did what JEws generally did historically, While I dotn know of any who opposed armed resistance against the Nazis I’m sure there were some and I am not arguing or criticizing them.

    I am only explaining the other side to you .

    #1571158

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Gemora says Rabi Akiva was wrong for supporting Bar Kochba. If I recall, I believe even Rabi Akiva was moda as such in the end.

    Who with big enough shoes has said that we now change Jewish practice from thorought the ages as a result of the Holocaust? You cited Rav Ziemba, but a) the source for that is not entirely clearly accurate and b) even if assume the apocryphal quote as accurate, it is a single source going against the entire corpus of Jewish rabbinic history up to present.

    You admit that a band of Jews with guns can’t fight the Czar’s army but you think a couple hundred Jews with guns can beat the German war machine? You argue that both opinions are legitimate and you’re not saying either is more correct than the other, but how can you fathom that a couple hundred armed Jews can initiate a gun fight against the Nazis when the inevitable result — and which occurred — was the immediate murder of 6,000 Jews in the ghetto, who never agreed to die as a result of the several hundred armed Jews who took on the Germans, by their being burned to death, the most horrific form of death, when they burnt down the ghetto house by house with the Jews in them?

    As you know, if someone kills someone who was mortally ill and expected to die within minutes or hours before he was killed, the killer is guilty of murder and subject to the death penalty. Even if you assume most of the ghetto residents wouldn’t have survived the war anyway (even putting aside the reality that some likely would have survived), their being killed earlier than otherwise — even it is were “only” months earlier — is a horrific crime.

    Who have a couple hundred people the right to engage in action resulting in the early murder of thousands and thousands of Jews?

    #1571296

    simcha613
    Participant

    I have to say, this is an absolutely fascinating conversation. Permit me to summarize what I’m reading so I can be corrected if I misunderstand something:

    Ubiquitin- There is no value in allowing our enemies to massacre it. There is no reason to be led like sheep to the slaughterhouse. If our enemies are committing genocide against us, even if we have no chance, it is a Kiddush Hashem to go down fighting. We cannot just allow our enemies to send us to the chambers without fighting for our lives… as futile as that fight may be.

    Joseph- It is absolutely prohibited to do anything that can lead to a shortening of human life. If a fight against our enemy is futile, then there is no point in fighting them, even if we are going to die anyways, even if we are going to be led to our deaths like sheep to the slaughterhouse. If we give our enemy an excuse to kill us and our fellow Jews by fighting them in a futile attempt to stop their genocide, then it is as if we are responsible for the lives they take. There is no excuse for causing the premature loss of life if there is no chance of success.

    #1571328

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Less jews survived in Warsaw than anywhere else, because in August 1944 the Poles had their own uprising against the Nazis and the Nazis basically leveled Warsaw to the ground (The city was rebuilt after the war) There were probably thousands of jews in hiding and they were killed when the city was destroyed

    The head of the Judenraat in Lodz was a Rasha named Mordechai Rumankowski who was a Nazi collaborator, he did manage to stall the deportations from Lodz until august 1944 and 750 jews were left behind to clean the ghetto. They were liberated when Lodz was liberated in January 1945.

    More jews actually survived in Berlin than in Warsaw

    #1571327

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Who with big enough shoes has said that we now change Jewish practice from throughout the ages as a result of the Holocaust?”

    I dont follow. Different circumstances call for different approaches. Yaakov avinu taught us how to face enemies with three different approaches. All are appropriate depending on the circumstance.

    “but you think a couple hundred Jews with guns can beat the German war machine? ”
    No, and I explicitly sad so. The point wasn’t to beat the German was machine.

    “(even putting aside the reality that some likely would have survived),”

    Maybe more survived as a result of the uprising, thats only for the Boreei Olam to know. After all some did escape, the uprising DELAYED many people’s deaths as it took the Germans about 2 months to empty the Ghetto. when the decision to empty the Lodz Ghetto in august 44′ was made it was emptied in less than a month and most were gassed upon their arrival to Chelmno. Perhaps if they too had revolted they would have delayed the ghetto’s destruction.

    “Who have a couple hundred people the right to engage”
    The Ribono shel Olam as reported by his emissaries in the Ghetto, the Rabbonim at the time, and as outlined by our history eis milchomo veis shalom, sometimes bargaining is appropriate sometimes fighting is appropriate.

    #1571364

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    We have a rule that if someone is going to kill you, you should preemptively try to kill him first. Why does that not apply to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto?

    #1571377

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because you know that then his buddies will kill you anyways as well as kill thousands of other Jews — immediately. Other Jews who might have otherwise survived, but certainly many of those that were then immediately killed would have survived longer than an immediate fiery burnt to death.

    And those thousands and thousands of others who were immediately killed did not acquiesce to your taking action that will result in their immediate deaths.

    #1571398

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was an uprising at Chelmno and about 300 jews managed to escape and live. Chelmno was not like Auschwitz, pretty much everyone was killed upon arrival except for a small amount to sort the victims stuff.

    Chemlno was shut down after the uprising

    #1571482

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    This argument about whether it was right to revolt against the Germans in the Warsaw ghetto or not is patently absurd. מאי דהוי הוי. Many people believe that Rav Menachem Ziemba zt”l Hy”d along with the other gedolei harabbonim in the ghetto sanctioned it. It is claimed that there are still witnesses alive today who know this for a fact (don’t try to ask me for sources for this). I personally accept this view that they did sanction it. Some claim there is no reliable testimony on this. Or that “it simply cannot be that the rabbonim allowed such a thing…” None of us were there to overhear anything said by anyone. If someone chooses not to accept the view that the rabbonim allowed it, so, OK, that’s your choice to believe or not. It’s probably impossible to empirically prove such matters 80 years later.
    One point worth mentioning is that the leading rabbonim in the Warsaw ghetto, including Rav Menachem Ziemba received an offer from the Catholic Church in Poland of free passage out the ghetto.
    They refused the offer, saying although we cannot do anything materially to help our fellow Yidden, our very presence in the ghetto is a source of inspiration and gives them strength. They all perished.
    ה’ ינקום דמם של כולם

    #1571521

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Because you know that then his buddies will kill you anyways as well as kill thousands of other Jews — immediately.”
    Only the Ribono shel olam can no that. There is no question that SOME lives were extended as a result of the uprising. The decision to liquidate the Ghetto was made before the uprising the plan was for the ghetto to be empty by Hitler’s birthday April 20. The uprising lasted longer, and perhaps lives were extended

    “And those thousands and thousands of others who were immediately killed did not acquiesce to your taking action that will result in their immediate deaths.”

    i’m not sure that enters the chesbon,. By Haba lehargach if in retaliation the intended murderer’s brother will kill 10 Jews, does that mean yo ucant kill the intended murderer? I doubt it. Though would be interested to see sources that say otherwise if you could provide.
    And at any rate, the plan was t o kill them anyway, likely sooner if not for the uprising.

    #1571527

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The official archivist of the Jewish Organization in the ghetto was Hillel Seidman. In his records of a meeting, he quotes R’ Ziemba as saying, “Of necessity, we must resist the enemy on all fronts. We shall no longer heed his instructions.

    In the past, during religious persecution, we were required by the law ‘to give up our lives even for the least essential practice.’ In the present, however, when we are faced by an arch-foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and program of total annihilation know no bounds. The Halakha demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name.”

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