Tishah BeAv and Yom HaShoah

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Tishah BeAv and Yom HaShoah

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 88 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1564144

    simcha613
    Participant

    I was thinking over Tishah BeAv about commemorating the Holocaust on Tishah BeAv vs. Yom HaShoah and I wanted to share some thoughts I had:

    I think that ideally, it’s clear that the most appropriate time for all Jews to commemorate the Holocaust is Tishah BeAv. We would properly connect he suffering to it’s source… the Churban HaBayis. If somehow we could establish that as the national day to remember the Holocaust… ashreinu.

    But we live in an unideal world. The secular leaders of Israel chose a different day. As frum Jews, we no longer have the power to choose a national day of Holocaust commemoration for Jews worldwide. The question is how do we as frum Jews respond. We can choose to do our own thing, a religious commemoration at some other time, and have two days of remembrances for (what seems to be looking like) two different peoples. Or, to commemorate the tragedy where we were targeted for our identity as Jews instead of our religion as Jews… where we were seen by the enemy as one people… we can commemorate it together as one people. We, religious Jews, who take unity and sinas chinam far more seriously than our secular brethren, in my opinion, should join together as one in love to commemorate the tragedy when our enemy joined us together in hate. It may not be the day that we want or in the exact manner that we want… but in my humble opinion, that’s the least important part of the remembrance.

    It shouldn’t take a tragedy to join us together… but it’s a sad state when even a tragedy can’t join us together.

    #1564182

    laskern
    Participant

    The gedolim attribute the holocaust to Tisha B’av. If we were not exiled from our land, there would not have been a holocaust.

    #1564306

    adocs
    Participant

    While “going along” for the sake of peace is a very important ideal, it can also be a slippery slope. How far are we willing to go? Where do you draw the line? There are many areas where, peace notwithstanding, we don’t “go along”.

    #1564326

    akuperma
    Participant

    The zionists (and secular Jews in general) believe that the goyim are inherently good and worthy of emualation and being assimilated into, and therefore have to hold that the holocaust was something radically out of the ordinary. Therefore it rates a special day, and much special attention.

    A frum historian will more likely come to the conclusion that the holocaust wasn’t all that “special”, and was merely a mid-20th century manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries (and millenia), going back to the origin of Tisha B’Av. If we had a full day fast every time the goyim persecuted us, we would risk starvation.

    #1564329

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Laskern

    I dont understand how that changes simcha613’s excellent post

    adocs

    I dont really understand slippery slope arguments
    “Where do you draw the line? ” So lets draw it at Yom hoshoa. We are big boys we can analyze each step of the slope individually.

    #1564382

    Circle
    Participant

    But the kinnos specifically instruct us not to institute another day to commemorate tragedy other than tisha B’Av in order to akways be cognizant that all our pain stems from tisha B’Av.

    #1564394

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Circle, then why did the Shach institute a taanis on the 20th of Sivan to commemorate Tach v’Tat?

    #1564407

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    adocs

    If you are worried about slippery slope, you should be more worried about the reverse. This “downplaying” of the holocaust by saying “wasn’t all that “special”, and was merely a mid-20th century manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries ” This is what leads to some calling Jews with political differences “nazis” Holocaust education is downplayed and many of them dont fully appreciate how terrible the nazis were, it “was just a manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries” then it is just a Tuesday.

    I have often had coworkers ask what is so “special” about the holocaust that there are museums and memorials in many cities, many suffered. So I educate them, but it is concerning when frum people don’t understand what was unique about the holocaust, and this is partly as a result of the slippery slope avoiding commemorating it.

    akuperma
    \”A frum historian will more likely come to the conclusion”

    that is very unlikely, and if you really dont know why the holocaust was “special” I’d be more than happy to help explain it to you, as I have to colleagues.

    #1565180

    showjoe
    Participant

    DaMoshe – Circle, then why did the Shach institute a taanis on the 20th of Sivan to commemorate Tach v’Tat?
    I was just wondering about this on Tisha B’av. Also the Friday of Chukas is also a tannis for the burning of the gemara in France (which we read about in kinnus on Tisha B’av).

    #1565195

    DovidBT
    Participant

    This “downplaying” of the holocaust by saying “wasn’t all that “special”, and was merely a mid-20th century manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries ”

    Was the 20th century holocaust more of a tragedy than the destruction of the two Temples and the expulsion of the Jews from Eretz Yisrael?

    #1565301

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Was the 20th century holocaust more of a tragedy than the destruction of the two Temples and the expulsion of the Jews from Eretz Yisrael?”

    I don’t really feel comfortable answering that question. I’m not sure how to weigh which was “more of a tragedy”
    Chazal tell us that in Kidushin that the a “positive element” of the churban, one worthy of a mizmor as opposed to a kinnah, as Rashi explains ” שאמר אסף שירה על שכילה הקב”ה חמתו בעצים ואבנים שבביתו ומתוך כך הותיר פליטה בישראל ”

    Obviously though many were killed as well, and I just dont know how to weigh “more of a tragedy” Is it weighed by number of Jews killed? percentages? does the way they were killed matter? I just don’t know

    Luckily though determining which is “more of a tragedy” has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Nobody here suggested replacing Tisha ba’av with Yom hashoa

    #1565319

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Nobody here suggested replacing Tisha ba’av with Yom hashoa”

    The apikorsum who created the so-called “Yom Hashoa” certainly suggested replacing, and indeed entirely discarding Tisha B’Av, in its favor.

    #1565328

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph

    as I said “Nobody here suggested replacing Tisha ba’av with Yom hashoa”

    #1565336

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Luckily though determining which is “more of a tragedy” has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.

    On the contrary. That’s exactly what this discussion is about. Adding a separate memorial day for the 20th century holocaust dilutes the significance of Tisha B’Av for many people, who view the destruction of the Temples as “old history” that doesn’t really matter in today’s world.

    #1565382

    simcha613
    Participant

    DovidBT- Then you misunderstand this discussion. For anyone whose Tishah BeAv will be diluted by a separate Holocaust memorial day, are already utilizing a separate Holocaust memorial day. My question was, for those of us who recognize Tishah BeAv for what it truly is… and who are commemorating the Holocaust on Tishah BeAv anyways… shouldn’t we also join in achdus with our fellow Jews to commemorate the Holocaust together, as one, on Yom HaShoah… even if it’s not on the day we think is ideal?

    #1565473

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    On Tisha b’Av, I mourn all the losses, including to the Holocaust, for the impact to me and the Jewish nation as a whole.
    On Yom haShoah, I mourn the Holocaust publicly, for even the non-Jewish world to see, and to remind them of what can happen when hatred is unchecked.

    #1565493

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Gedolim who survived the Holocaust wrote kinos that we say on Tisha B’Av, in regards to the Holocaust, commemorating, honoring and remembering it and the kedoshim who died Al Kiddush Hashem in it.

    #1565498

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” Adding a separate memorial day for the 20th century holocaust dilutes the significance of Tisha B’Av for many people, ”

    I dont follow, does observing the yahrtzeit of one’s mother dilute the significance of one’s father’s yahrtzit?
    They are 2 tragedies both were terrible and we commemorate both why does a commemoration for the Holocaust dilute that of the churban?

    #1565552

    DovidBT
    Participant

    My question was, for those of us who recognize Tishah BeAv for what it truly is… and who are commemorating the Holocaust on Tishah BeAv anyways… shouldn’t we also join in achdus with our fellow Jews to commemorate the Holocaust together, as one, on Yom HaShoah… even if it’s not on the day we think is ideal?

    Some of our fellow Jews are married to non-Jewish spouses, and their families observe Dec. 25 as a holiday. Should we join in achdus with them and observe Dec. 25 too?

    #1565594

    simcha613
    Participant

    DovidBT- Just to understand, you’re comparing celebrating Jesus with commemorating the Holocaust?

    #1565591

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” Should we join in achdus with them and observe Dec. 25 too?”

    No,
    If you really don’t understand why, I’d be happy t o explain it to you. Please let me know

    #1565516

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Establishing memorial days and commemorative events is not not for laymen to decide. It is a question for the poskei halacha andand the manhigei hador. The Chazon Ish wrote in a letter that those calling to declare a public fast day in mourning over the holocaust are demonstrating their failure to to grasp the enormity of legislating such a day. He wrote that to declare such requires ru’ach hakodesh, and it is sheer impudence for anyone in our generation (60 or so years ago!) to even suggest such a thing. Within all the existing frameworks, we mourn the holocaust, without establishing new ones. Regarding observing yom hasho’a — the authoritative poskei halacha have ruled long ago that this observance during the month of Nissan is not acceptable. The Israeli govt. declared it for that date, to fit their agenda — that it would always fall during the week before Israel independence day. That doesn’t make it correct from a halacha standpoint.

    #1565526

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Many years ago, I heard Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis A”H and one of her brothers (YBLCT) speak about their experiences on Chaf Zayin Nissan.

    #1565624

    DovidBT
    Participant

    DovidBT- Just to understand, you’re comparing celebrating Jesus with commemorating the Holocaust?

    No, I’m making an analogy by using another example of abandoning halachah for the sake of “achdus with our fellow Jews “.

    #1565622

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the Frum world Aseret B’Tevet Yom Hakadosh Haklali is the holocaust rememberence day not Tisha B’av

    #1565621

    simcha613
    Participant

    I never really understood the problem of Yom HaShoah during Nissan. I mean, I understand it’s a happy month… but we do sad things also. We observe nihugei aveilus for the death of R’ Akiva’s students during Nissan. We say Av HaRachamim even on Shabbos Mevorchim in commemoration of the Crusades in Nissan. So it’s not like commemorating tragedies is something that we completely avoid in Nissan.

    #1565679

    simcha613
    Participant

    DovidBT- I understand what you were trying to do. But you were comparing violating avodah zarah for the sake of achdus and commemorating a tragedy on a day other then Tishah BeAv for the sake of achdus. They are not the same. It’s not even clear that having a special day to commemorate the Holocaust is against halacha as we have other examples… mourning the crusades during sefirah, tach vetat on 20 Sivan… which only makes your comparison that much more ridiculous.

    #1565677

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The date of Yom Hashoa was chosen because it was the date of the start of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

    #1565699

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “that this observance during the month of Nissan is not acceptable. The Israeli govt. declared it for that date, to fit their agenda — that it would always fall during the week before Israel independence day.”

    The first part is nonsense the second is correct.
    A big chunk of klal yisroel spends 27 nissan scratching their faces and avoiding music in mourning over R’ Akiva’s Talmidim. but to hear some speeches and a siren, …. no its nissan No mourning!
    The second part is the real reason

    dovid
    “No, I’m making an analogy by using another example of abandoning halachah for the sake of “achdus with our fellow Jews “.”

    Ummm, how is yom hashoa, “abandoning halacha” ?

    #1565749

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “The date of Yom Hashoa was chosen because it was the date of the start of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising”

    Except that it wasn’t
    It is hard to determine an exct date as there was some fighting in January of 43′. Most historians Consider April 19 43′ (Erev Pesach) as the start of the “official” uprising.
    It was considred that 14 nissan be yom Hashoa but that idea never gained much traction.

    #1565767

    DovidBT
    Participant

    which only makes your comparison that much more ridiculous.

    You have your logic, I have mine. If you find mine ridiculous, then laugh at it and move on. 😉

    #1565964

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    The main idea is somehow not registering with some people here. The mourning of the days of sefira during (the end of) Nissan was not something voted upon by a gaggle of atheists claiming to represent Klal Yisroel. It was decided by the Torah Sages at that time. The Chazon Ish has already made it clear that this is not something that anyone in our (in his!) generation is qualified to decide. Not even the Sages of the Coffee Room.

    #1565998

    simcha613
    Participant

    AY- which is why it’s not ideal to have Yom HaShoah in Nissan. If it were in the hands of the religious to decide, it likely would have been a different day… or maybe not even a separate day at all. My point was, now that Yom HaShoah does exist in this unideal time of year, should we separate from our fellow (albeit secular) Jews in commemorating the Holocaust on that day or join together? The fact that Chazal did enact nihugei aveilus during Nissan just demonstrates that it’s not a hard and fast prohibition… otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to do that in the first place.

    Interestingly enough, the nihugei aveilus during sefirah are to commemorate and rectify the sinas chinam that caused the deaths of R’ Akiva’s students. Chazal seemingly felt that the rectification of sinas chinam (or the rectification of not treating each other with respect) is a strong enough value that it warrants nihugei aveilus even in the happy month of Nissan. One can argue that choosing to separate from our fellow Jews in commemorating the Holocaust, something that my inadvertently cause an increase in sinas chinam and creates the impression of disrespect for one another, is taking the opposite message from Chazal who seemed to prioritize the evils of sinas chinam and disrespect over the happiness of Nissan.

    #1566014

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    simcha613: Take your proposal to the Gedolei Hador and endeavor to convince them that you’re right. That’s the only way to get the Chareidi tzibbur to accept your ideas.
    BTW, the loyal Jews are not the ones who have “separated.” It is the disloyal Jews who have separated from the body of Klal Yisroel. The practices of ignorant disloyal Jews do not qualify as “minhagim,” even if they are doing it.
    We should try to engage them in dialog and behave civilly toward them, to whatever extent possible. But, to give in to them and accept their practices? Who are they that we should obey them?

    #1566027

    Joseph
    Participant

    Simcha613: “If it were in the hands of the religious to decide, it likely would have been a different day… or maybe not even a separate day at all.”

    Er, it WAS in the hands of the religious to decide. And the religious leaders DID decide. So what the atheists decided in contradiction to the religious authorities is utterly meaningless.

    #1566030

    simcha613
    Participant

    “Who are they that we should obey them?” It’s unfortunately that attitude that just leads to more division. We wouldn’t be obeying them, we would be joining them. I wish that they would be ovdei Hashem just like we are, but they are still our brothers… and they are commemorating a tragedy that affected us both together. Secular and religious Jews entered the gas chambers together, and yet we still have the attitude “who are they that we should obey them.” It doesn’t matter who is separating from who, what matters is who has the power to join together. Maybe I just think too highly of us, but I was always under the impression that we have more of an ability to extend our hand then the reverse.

    #1566065

    laskern
    Participant

    simcha613 – Our chazal sometimes said towards the non-orthodox הבדלו that we should separate ourselves in order not to be influenced by them. There is not sinas chinom because we show openly our disapproval of their views. Sinas chinom is when we keep our hatred bottled up in our heart and act towards them as friends.

    #1566059

    Joseph
    Participant

    It states ולא תלכו בחוקת הגוי – “You shouldn’t walk in the ways and customs of the nations.” The Rambam states in Hilchos Avodah Zarah that you shouldn’t follow the practices of the goyim. Not because it’s a certain practice that is wrong, but just because we should be different from the gentiles in the way we enjoy, in the way we behave, and even in the way we clothe ourselves. That’s what the Rambam says. Otherwise, if you participate in the things that goyim do, it’s not just that you’re sitting in a baseball stadium. The real problem is that your mind and your dei’os, which means your character traits, will begin imitating the nations with whom you are associating.

    It’s important to be apart from wicked Jews too. (Not only wicked Jews, even Orthodox Jews who are fools. There are plenty of fools by the Orthodox too; oh yes! You have to be careful with whom you sit with in a beis haknesses. A fool sitting next to you can be speaking loshon harah or leitzanus during the davening. You have to be careful.)

    The Rambam says דרך ברייתו של אדם להיות נמשך בדעותיו ובדרכיו אחר רעיו וחבריו – “A person is drawn in the way he thinks and the way he behaves according to with whom he associates. Even the Orthodox are included in that.

    #1566093

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not chabad, nor am I a follower of the Lubachvicher Rebbe. But I always admired he treated every jew equally no matter what their relgious observance

    #1566334

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    simcha613: we are quibbling over nuances in word meanings. By “joining them” you are acknowledging that the ignorant atheists are worth following. Otherwise, why would you want to follow them? The original Christians were Jews. So, should we “join them” in their celebrations for the sake of some type of “unity” of mankind? “Joining” them is “following” them, even if you want to split hairs and say, “but it’s not necessarily obeying them.” “Following” the ignorant atheists is also a serious error. I never heard of any Gadol BaTorah proposing or supporting such an idea. If you are still bothered by this, I’ll recommend my usual solution. Get on a plane to EY, visit Reb Chaim Kanievsky or any other gadol, and try to persuade them to adopt your ideas. If they’ll agree with you, the Chareidi tzibbur also will.

    #1566355

    DovidBT
    Participant

    In their usual inclusive manner, Chabad DOT org takes an interesting appproach to this. There’s no “Yom HaShoah” on their calendar. But they make a point of including a Holocaust-themed article among their headlined articles on that occasion.

    #1566378

    ramateshkolnik
    Participant

    Can I pose another question re Holocaust memorial;
    The purpose of remembering the Churban Bayis is clear; realise the lack of Shechina, work on Ahavas Yisroel, Limud Torah, or any of a score of similar themes (and please don’t start nitpicking at that).
    How does one meaningfully remember the Holocaust? I of course am not downplaying it’s significance. But this year, on Tisha B’av, after seeing a historical account, I was left with a feeling of overwhelming sadness, but also the question how to channel that feeling.
    Ideas?

    #1566459

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I was left with a feeling of overwhelming sadness,”

    That is the point. The purpose of Tisha’ Bav IS to feel sad. yo uhave succeeded

    “but also the question how to channel that feeling.”

    It dopesnt need to be channeled the point is being sad.

    Sure if you want yo ucan use that sadness to ensure it doesnt happen again by working on Say, sinas chinam which chazal tell us is wha tled us to thsi mess in the first place.

    but this is secondary. Tishaa Bav isnt a day of teshuva. We dont say Selichos, we dont lain vayechol we dont lain dirshu (not in the morning at least), we dont say avinu malkeinu. As chazal say Hashem closed the gates of tefilah.

    The point is to be sad and mourn over that which was lost.

    AY
    “The original Christians were Jews. So, should we “join them” in their celebrations for the sake of some type of “unity” of mankind”

    whats with this strange comparison to christians/christmas. do you really not understand the difference between Yom hashoa and christmas? IS that how far removed this strange shita makes people?

    Out of curiosity , to you make thsi same false equivalence between joining/following when it comes to joining them in accepting government funds, or is that a special exception?

    #1566519

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ramat: The Holocaust also occurred due to the aveiros we were guilty of.

    #1566547

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    I personally do not receive a shekel more than any other Israeli citizen. The Chazon Ish together with many others allowed frum citizens to recoup as much as possible some of the tax money that we all pay to the state. Perhaps that’s the “exception” you referred to. Regarding Christian celebrations, I only meant it לסבר את האוזן. Although 1800 years ago, it’s conceivable that some people could have made such a claim.
    The entire discussion is getting absurd. Whoever wants to commemorate yom ha’shoa is going to do so. The question arose why aren’t more Chareidim commemorating it. I simply suggested discussing the issue with the Gedolei Torah, and if they will agree, probably most Chareidim will also follow suit. Anything else will not get the Chareidi tzibbur to go along with it. Nevertheless, as if no one is paying any attention to what others have posted, the question keeps resurfacing: but why aren’t the Chareidim commemorating yom ha’shoa? The given answer is ignored (i.e., consult with the rabbonim) and people keep on asking the question. It’s a matter for poskei halacha, not ba’alei batim. Those who persist in following da’as ba’alei batim — no one can stop them.
    And around and around we go ….

    #1566423

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ramat: As the Gedolim have said, the Holocaust occurred due to our aveiros. Just as they happened by the Churban Beis HaMikdash. Whether it is Zionism, secularism, becoming more German than the Germans, etc. Like by the Churban Beis HaMikdash, the Churban Europe had multiple aveiros as the reason for its occurrence.

    We must learn from that.

    #1566554

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I personally do not receive a shekel more than any other Israeli citizen. ”

    I never said you did. You are not worried about joining them when it benefits you, thus your response that you dont want t o join “ignorant atheists” is a cop out.
    you want to fall back on “consult with the rabbonim” that is certainly your prerogative (though begs the question of why this entire forum exists let alone your presence on it

    “should teachers/ Rebbis get a full time salary” – “consult the gedolim”
    “$15 an hour minium wage” – “consult the gedolim”
    ” hi everyone remeber me?” – ” consult the gedolim”

    but please don’t pretend that is your entire response. you made a foolish comparison to christmas, that I doubt the gedolim have made.

    #1566573

    unommin
    Participant

    Don’t we have the maturity to realize that this is a stupid thing over which to argue. So stand still during a siren. There is no other RITUAL for which ‘the zionists’ are requiring participation. Just get along. They dont affect our mourning, and all we need to do is stand (hello, shev v’al tasseh) for their siren. Anything else is simply nonsense.

    #1566606

    Joseph
    Participant

    uno: How about, so we don’t stand still during the Zionist siren. Let them get along and accept us for who we are even though we don’t become statues when they ring their siren.

    Where’s their ahavos chinum?

    #1566632

    DovidBT
    Participant

    How about, so we don’t stand still during the Zionist siren.

    How about kneeling on one knee, maybe with a raised fist? 🙂

    (Just in case it’s not clear, I’m not serious in suggesting active protests against the sirens.)

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 88 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending