August 18, 2023 4:19 am at 4:19 am #2217212
According to the times of Israel, YUs rabbinic board approved a course in the revel grad school geared specifically towards Christians, to teach them Torah.
Teaching Torah to goyim is assur, full stop. It’s a violation of halacha. YU is doing it, it seems,to foster interfaith relations and of course to add more gold onto the egel hazahav of their obsession with zionism… Evangelicals are zionists; we mustn’t let these archaic laws interfere with Israel advocacy! Toeva pride groups? We can’t alienate them…. because.. Israel!
Is there a limit to how far YU will go for its shmad state worship?
Chagiga 13a, we dont give over divrei Torah to goyim, from the pasuk ” lo asah cain lach goy…”‘
Sanhedrin 59a, a goy who learns Torah is chayav misah.
Rambam, melachim 9:10.August 18, 2023 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2217259lakewhutParticipant
You’re right. Some people in what they call MO Machmir or YU Right Wing have woken up to the Avlah and choose to either go to Landers or CUNY and learn at a mainstream Yeshiva at night morning or both. Unfortunately til today YU is seen as the standard for much of MO. Is it better that these kids whose parents leave them little choices how to spend their post HS or Israel years at an away fully goyish college or better to go to YU and at least have a kesher with a Rav?August 18, 2023 9:04 am at 9:04 am #2217261Rebbe YidParticipant
Osuur to teach them sheva mitzvos benei noach? I don’t think so.August 18, 2023 9:05 am at 9:05 am #2217304Avi KParticipant
The idea is to show them that Judaism is the root. Moreover, it’s allowed to teach them the details of the sheva mitzvot. According to some, a mitzzva. While not all agree, the Rema says (Responsum 10) that the mitzva of dinim includes all of Choshen Mishpat. A goy who learns Torah is like the Cohen Gadol 9Avoda Zara 3a). The Meiri differentiates between a goy whose interest is purely academic and one who seeks the truth.
You really started off Elul on the right foot with your hotzaat shem ra.August 18, 2023 9:06 am at 9:06 am #2217307DaMosheParticipant
To add to Avira’s aveiros:
The article doesn’t say anywhere that they’re teaching them Torah. It says they’ll be learning Jewish history, biblical Hebrew (as opposed to modern-day Ivrit), and post-Biblical literature.
You see what you want to see, because you are blinded by your hatred of YU. Try looking with an unbiased view, and you may actually see the truth.
You reek of sinas chinam, and it disgusts me.August 18, 2023 10:08 am at 10:08 am #2217332GadolhadorahParticipant
Seems like the YU-haters have too much time on their hands on a slow evev shabbos in August. Those who have strong disagreements with YU/RIETS will hold those views, irrespective of the facts. Many of us may disagree with some of the positions and programs they have initiated over the past decade but feel that overall, it is critically important to have an institution like YU available for those who seek that environment.August 18, 2023 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2217333
Do you think this is a continuation or an extension of the well known heter to teach women ? Or do you think it is a separate issur on the goy to learn Torah because of the cheftza of Torah. It would be hard to say its on the gavra because the goy does not listen . Anyway a lot of reyd here .August 18, 2023 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2217345ariaekParticipant
why the hate? perhaps they’re being taught the שבע מצות בני נח?
see סנהדרין נו, אAugust 18, 2023 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #2217398
“This year’s “pilot class” of eight Christian graduate students, who come from a mix of evangelical, Pentecostal and Baptist backgrounds, began with Hebrew Bible courses this summer.”.
From the article. They’re teaching bible. Damoshe only read one line. They are teaching tanach, not just 7 mitzvos.
They are teaching Christians who want, according to the article, to use judaism to understand THEIR religion better, and they will MINGLE with the jewish kids, by design, the article says.August 18, 2023 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2217399
Avi, a goy learning being compared to a kohen gadol refers to a ger toshav, see rashi and everyone else there. Not christians who abuse tanach for their own religion.August 18, 2023 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2217401
Aria, calling something assur isn’t hate. Why is that always the go-to defense against criticism, while when MO calls us cavemen, we’re supposed to understand that they really have our best interests at heartAugust 18, 2023 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2217402
Ishpurim, it’s the same as goy she’shavas; it’s stealing from us. Hashem gave the Torah to us, and to give it away to them is to give them something special that Hashem gave.
They also will definitely use it to4 pernicious purposes, which is why we made a fast day when the Torah was forcibly translated into Greek.
Doesn’t YU realize that they’re just training a generation of educated missionaries who aren’t going to be limited by faulty English translations and will be able to debate with jews more convincingly, especially to israelis?
And what can be meant by “post biblical works,” besides gemara and medrash?August 18, 2023 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2217407
The Gemora Bava Basra 15B says ?אַטּוּ כּוּלְּהוּ נְבִיאֵי מִי לָא אִינַּבּוֹ לְאוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם about the thought that the Neviem in Tanach were not talking to non-Jews as well.
I’m no posek and not endorsing the idea of a masters program teaching Tanach to non-Jews from a Jewish perspective but the Gemora does seem to clearly indicate that non-Jews are encouraged to learn Tanach. Who is supposed to be teaching it to them?
Unless you can prove with solid maareh mokomos that YU is clearly doing an aveira just bug off.August 18, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2217413
Smerel, I gave clear mareh mekomos in my first post. Look them up. Goyim who learn Torah are chayav misah.
Re, B”b 15b, it’s not saying that goyim should learn it, it’s saying that nevuah was said about them.
Let’s go through the shakla vetaryah:
First the gemara tries to identify neviim who are not Jewish, based on their nevuah regarding non jews(no different than how bilaam prophecized about amalek), then the gemara rejects identification of a navi beijt Jewish by virtue of their nevuahs content, because “do you think that the Jewish neviim didn’t speak about non jews?” They surely did, so the gemara wants to abandon that presumption. Then the gemara defends the presumption by saying that the jewish neviim spoke mainly about jews, and these neviim jn question spoke mainly about non jews.
Nowhere is it indicated that goyim should learn them. We are supposed to learn about the nevuos said regarding those nations.August 18, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2217414Menachem ShmeiParticipant
In addition to the issue of teaching goyim Torah, there seems to be a greater underlying threat here.
Here’s some more from the article:
“The new program is a joint initiative of YU and the Philos Project, an organization that says it “seeks to promote positive Christian engagement in the Near East.” Philos is a partner of Passages — a Birthright-style program that brings young Christians on group tours of Israel…
The launch of the Christian students’ program is a sign of a growing bond between Orthodox Jews and religious Christians, who have increasingly found common cause on everything from conservative domestic politics to support for Israel.”
This is part of the general evangelical pro-Jewish/Israel craze that is happening. This is probably the greatest current threat to the Jewish people.
Jews haven’t died throughout history solely because they were born Jews. They died because they refused to accept Christianity, because we consider the death of our soul worse than the death of the body.
The evangelicals, with all their “Israel support” etc. have a sinister mission to grab more Jews than ever before, which is worse, in a way, than the mass murders of previous generations.
I personally know Jewish families who have pulled their children out of Hebrew School and placed them into church school, r”l, due to the influence of Jews for Jesus ym”sh.
We have so many taka takanos in place to distance us from the goyim, even limiting the bread we eat.
In an institution that calls itself a yeshiva, how can they make a program that encourages “interfaith dialogue” – a clear violation of לא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם!?
Hopefully, this terrible threat will be stopped in its tracks.
P.S. I have nothing against YU, as I know very little about it. I am reacting solely to the information given in this article.August 18, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2217431
This is a letter in 1940 from Rav Elchonon Wasserman. (The original handwritten letter in Hebrew on the Baranovitch yeshiva stationary is available.):
Baruch Hashem, Erev Shabbos Kodesh Naso
I received your letters but I have no ability to do anything with this, thus I did not respond.
The yeshivos in America which are able to bring over students are the yeshivas of Dr. Revel (named Yeshiva University) in New York and Beis Midrash L’Torah in Chicago, and they both are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom. And what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger. But I sent your letter to the revered Gaon, Rabbi Moshe Heinman, Dean of Mesivtha Torah V’Daas in Brooklyn, and I suggested that he request of the revered Dean of the Mirrer Yeshiva that he should also write to Brooklyn to the address below:
Rabbi Shlomo Heiman
92 Martin Street
Blessing you with life and peace and all good things forever,
Elchanan Bunim WassermanAugust 18, 2023 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2217452
>>Smerel, I gave clear mareh mekomos in my first post. Look them up. Goyim who learn Torah are chayav misah.
Depends on the aspect of Torah. The Gemora Bava Kama 38A says
מִנַּיִן שֶׁאֲפִילּוּ גּוֹי וְעוֹסֵק בַּתּוֹרָה שֶׁהוּא
כְּכֹהֵן גָּדוֹל תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשֶׂה אֹתָם הָאָדָם וָחַי בָּהֶם
Based on that the Rishoniim distinguish on what he is learning
That is why it is a complicated sugya and without maarhe mokomos down to achronim in relation o this specie situation you are just hocking.
>>>Re, B”b 15b, it’s not saying that goyim should learn it, it’s saying that nevuah was said about them.
You are badly misquoting the Gemora. If the Gemoroa meant “about” it would say “al” or “Odos” If as you understand it to e saying that שִׁבְעָה נְבִיאִים נִתְנַבְּאוּ לְאוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם means that seven Neviem were sent about (but not for) non-Jews and that הָכָא – עִיקַּר נְבִיאוּתַיְיהוּ לְאוּמּוֹת
הָעוֹלָם means that Sefer Iyov was primally written about (but not for) non-Jews then you would have to say that people like Bilaam said his main nevuah about non-Jews (to who?) and that Sefer Iyov which does not discuss explicitly discuss non-Jews at all was primarily written about them. .August 18, 2023 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2217460
I remember what the RY Harav GS said concerning the Yeshiva of Harav Reines. Anyone else remember that fateful day when the RL Harav OY came to TV maybe in 1974 or so. The bottom line is that it is very rare for one group to recognize and support the Yeshivas of another. But we do know that the SR sent his best talmidim to listen and repeat the shiurim of RYBS.August 18, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2217474
Smerel, your way of reading the gemara would mean that the main purpose of sifrei tanach including iyov is written so that goyim should read it. The discussion is whether or not they’re allowed to read it, but you’ve done one better and you think that this part of the Torah is specifically written for goyim! Rachmana litzlan mhai daatach.
As for c’kohen gadol, avi quoted it and it’s not relevant, because it’s referring to a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos.August 19, 2023 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2217515mobicoParticipant
Avira’s position is clear, accurate, and sourced. Nor has he personally attacked any individual or institution. He has clearheadedly pointed out an issue in a balanced and appropriate manner on a site with “Yeshiva” in its name. Those attacking him bring to mind the Maamar Chazal about Kol Haposel.
Hey, I think I may deserve some credit for that as well 🤭August 19, 2023 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #2217573
>>>Smerel, your way of reading the gemara would mean that the main purpose of sifrei tanach including iyov is written so that goyim should read it.
I’m in wonderful company. You misunderstand the Gemorah and you misunderstand me. I have no idea where you see what you are claiming I said that but to be clear. The Gemora asks as a question how anyone can think that the Neviem were not also written for non-Jews אַטּוּ כּוּלְּהוּ נְבִיאֵי מִי לָא אִינַּבּוֹ לְאוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם. The Gemora answers that Iyov is unique in that the entire sefer was (also) written in a manner that is for non-Jews עִיקַּר נְבִיאוּתַיְיהוּ לְאוּמּוֹת. You can possibly kvetch into the Gemora that it means that during their lifetimes their nevua was also (or primarily in the case of the other seven) for non-Jews but the written seforim of their nevuos were not meant for non-Jews bit there is is no way it can be understood as saying that Sefer Iyov is primarily ABOUT non-Jews like you do. Reread the gemora with Artscroll a few times if you still think I’m misquoting it.
>>>As for c’kohen gadol, avi quoted it and it’s not relevant, because it’s referring to a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos.
Says who? Who made that a unanimous opinion? Is it all or nothing when it comes to the Shiva mitzvas? As an aside someone enrolled in this course is far more like to end up keeping the Shiva mitzvas than someone who isn’t.
I’m not posting further on this thread so you are welcome to have the last word.August 19, 2023 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #2217578KuvultParticipant
This is truly disgusting.
Baruch Hashem I grew up in a Yeshiva community where there was zero bashing or attacking of the MO, Conservative, or Reform. No, we didn’t think the Reform way was legitimate but we focused on & appreciated their positives like Tsedaka, Chesed & the Honor & respect they brought to the Jewish people (top neurosurgeons). There is no question the Frum community is better off by having these people provide assistance & support.
What exactly is the point of this? The OP seems like an immature kid who likes to publicly stir up controversy or has such low self-esteem that he raises himself up by putting others down. This is not the Torah way.August 20, 2023 2:00 am at 2:00 am #2217606
smerel, yes, the sheva Mitzvos are all or nothing. If a goy keeps six but violates one, he is chayiv misa. In fact, he can’t be considered to keep the sheva mitzvos even if he happens to keep them unintentionally.August 20, 2023 3:55 am at 3:55 am #2217610
Smerel, it doesn’t say “written for,” the gemara is either saying that they prophecized TO, non jewish people, either mainly to(iyov) or somewhat to(the others) or “about,” i preferred the second reading because we don’t find yeshaya, etc…giving nevuos to goyim. The examples that come to mind are yonah and ehud, but these are so rare that the gemara can’t be saying “all the nevei yisroel also prophecized to goyim,” where do we find that, for example, yechezek even met anyone who wasn’t jewisu? Rather it means that goyishe nations are in their nevuos(i.e., the king of moav will do….)
It’s completely untenable that the gemara is saying that these seforim were written for goyim to learn.
The whole question of the gemara is if iyov is Jewish or not. That’s a machlokes. The gemara tries to prove that he was not Jewish from a braisa about hthe goyim who were neviim, then we get to the shakla vetaryah about prophecizing to/about goyim
Since a goy is not permitted to learn Torah, which is a clear halacha, any implied reading of this gemara is null – even if it would be a good diyuk, which in this case, is so out of context that i wonder how you managed to see this in the words.August 20, 2023 10:55 am at 10:55 am #2217708
Lots of interesting opinions but underlying facts are still unclear.
Could someone find a syllabus for these classes at least? Fluffy articles about the program may just be writer’s opinionsAugust 20, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2217709
R Soloveitchik was for dialogue and cooperation on practical matters, but not on theology. Even when catholics decided to overturn their anti Jewish positions in 1960s, he suggested not to cooperate: it is their own problem and they are dealing with it.
On the other hand, straight teaching our position may be different, despite the gemoras ^. we are well past septuaginta, protestants allowed everyone to learn Bible 500 years, and nowadays anyone can read artscroll gemora with meforshim.
I am not saying that this easily justifies any particular interaction, but it at least opens a discussionAugust 20, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2217710
Concerns about evangelical love are justified, and historically many Philo semites turned into anti when we didn’t play along, from Hadrian to Luther.. still it is way more comfortable to complain from your current position than from catholic Spain or from soviet Russia. We need to acknowledge the positives while staying vigilant.August 20, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2217734
Aaq, having good relationships with christians is one thing – they are bringing students who are farbrenteh evangelicals who are taught that their god will return if they convert jews….. into the same school as YOUR children!
MO parents…if the LGBT crowd at YU sn’t enough to convince you to stop patronizing this institution, have mercy on your children that they shouldn’t be exposed to Christianity while in a yeshiva!!
As pointed out above, there are plenty of alternatives. Landers is a good place with solid academics, IDT has a Yeshiva with college hours, ner yisrael can be accommodating for more right wing modern kids….in Brooklyn they’re better off going to Brooklyn college and spending time in yeshiva ohr Yisrael or one of the many other colleye accommodating yeshivos. Enough is enough.August 20, 2023 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2217915Thoughtful ResponseParticipant
While I heartedly disagree with many things YU does, and believe wholeheartedly that YU should be, not just Jewish, but a frum institution, requiring all students to be shomer shabbos, the issur you mentioned is misplaced. Halacha allows for non-Jews to learn Torah shebichsav. From the article, it seems that the classes are limited to teaching the background and model of Torah shebochsav without any mention of Halacha and Torah she’bal pe.August 20, 2023 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2217978Ari KnoblerParticipant
“Landers is a good place with solid academics.”
Thanks for this. I needed a good laugh.August 20, 2023 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2217977
Thoughtful, we are not supposed to teach them if they’re not doing it for the right reasons, that much is clear; whether they’re chayav misa for doing it on their own is perhaps a machlokes, but who in YU decided that they can pasken such a serious shailoh?
And what of the other, pressing practical issues? You’re inviting missionaries to a school full of targetsAugust 21, 2023 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2218104
AAQ with all due respect do you think that RJBS explanation as to why theology is assur is adequate ? Additionally, The Rabbonim in YU were in 3 camps years ago, L, R and C. With the advent of Dr. Lander’s Yeshiva the R moved from RIETS to Dr. Lander. Do you think Reb Elchanan zatzal would consider it any differently than Dr. Revel’s Yeshiva or BML?August 21, 2023 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2218125
Hire a goyish professor to teach the course; problem solved.August 21, 2023 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #2218142
Resident, that would be lifnei iver according to most poskim; again, who made YU rabbis able to pasken such shailos to begin with?
But that’s just the beginning. They’re inviting missionaries to come after your kids. And they’re helping them develop skills that they’ll use in evangelizing Jews with their knowledge of Hebrew and tanach.
YU will have a heavy responsibility in these jews who are led astray. Shame on them.August 22, 2023 8:31 am at 8:31 am #2218351Thoughtful ResponseParticipant
Who says they’re doing it for the wrong reasons? If they are going to a Jewish school to learn about Judaism, it seems that they are doing it for the right reasons.
Personally, I think it’s very silly, what they’re doing. But I don’t see an issue with it halachicly.August 22, 2023 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2218414
Thoughtful, because that’s what their religion is all about. They’re taking in evangelicals who by their religious affiliation per force believe in targeting jews for conversion. They believe that their messiah will come if jews believe in him, and having Israel is part of that ideology. Missionising is a key element of their religion.
That’s why they’d love more than anything else than to be in a school full of Jews. There’s no inyan of being dan lekaf zchus for goyim, especially when it’s clear why they’re doing something.August 22, 2023 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2218439
@aviradea, Lol. Lifnei iver? YU is to yeshivas as Hebrew National is to Kashrus; labeling itself kosher doesn’t make it kosher or representative of actual Kashrus standards, and YU calling itself a yeshiva doesn’t make it a yeshiva. I mean like seriously, you have a place that openly allows toiva clubs and your nitpicking about them asking a posik (LOL again) about lifnei iver in having a goy teach a Torah classAugust 22, 2023 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #2218465
RM, there is no respectable Rav neither in America or Israel who says that Hebrew National is nevelah or treyf. The old Rav Hamachshir was a talmid of the CC of Radin. The present Rav is world recognized talmid of Chevron. Yeshiva University had talmidim of Radin ( Dr. Belkin) , Telz ( Dr. Revel) , the Mir ( Harav Lifshitz), Slutzk ( Harav Paleyeff), Brisk ( Harav Gorelick), and Slabodka ( Rav Shatzkes) All this beside the Geonim Soloveichik . There was never a Yeshiva like Yitzchak Elchanan with such great Rebeyim. Not even close.August 22, 2023 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2218551
Ishpurim, i find it telling that you put belkin and revel – confirmed naskilim – together with the legitimate talmidei chachamim who taught at YU over the years. Belkin and revel had about as much to do with telz and radin as bialik had to do with volozhin.
The chofetz chaim, of radin, vociferously opposed modernity,as did the telzer roshei yeshiva.
Rav shatzkes, rav gorelick, and rabbi yoshe ber were definitely talmidei chachamim, the former two being completely non controversial and often quoted in the most yeshivish of batei nedrash. They have zero in common with belkin and revel; did you just compile a list by googling roshei yeshiva and where they came from?
You alsl omitted the mitchiter iliui and rav shimon shkop; gotta be comprehensive.
But that doesn’t mean it was the best yeshiva; the talmidim were not very frum, the hanhalah wasn’t either, plagued by forces like revel and belkin who wished to undermine the concept of a beis nedrash. Norman lamm actually exposed belkin’s devious plot to ruin Torah study there – of course lamm had his own issues with sinas hatorah vlomdeah, but he was a step up from belkin. I heard this from an old YU talmid.
Hebrew national has no serious oversight. Their shochtim aren’t mainstream; no one knows what actually goes on there, and the triangle K has issues with how it conducts hashgocha, despite whatever policies it has that are approved by rabbi ralbag. Who told you that r. Ralbag is a “world recognized” anything? He’s a young Israel rabbi who’s into the Gra and is known for knowing how to learn….no one in the yeshiva world considers him a major posek or anything.August 22, 2023 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2218579
Ishpurim: To be very fair, JTS had much greater rebbeim than YU, such as Geonim Saul Lieberman. And is certainly on par and in the same category of Yeshiva like YU.
And as you pointed out, Hebrew National is a world recognized hechsher. So to be fair to RM, his comment that “YU is to yeshivas as Hebrew National is to Kashrus” is a fair statement. Both YU and Hebrew National are choshuv establishments.August 22, 2023 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2218647
and human flesh isn’t treyf or nevelah either but its still not kosher 🙂August 23, 2023 7:10 am at 7:10 am #2218710
Avira, my kids are not at yu at all, so they are not seeing goyim there, my information is second hand. In this case, just responding to theoretical ideas.
As to that, a couple of my kids took online religion class from a goyishe college, with my running 🏃♂️ commentary and, I think, benefited from that. I have a psak for this before I am told that this is worse than having a TV 📺.
Will these guys assault some yu kids? I presume someone is monitoring the situation, and that’s why it is a pilotAugust 23, 2023 7:11 am at 7:11 am #2218711
Of course, rankings are not the full story bur they are indicative of something … touro Grad school is
140 In ot, 120 pt, 230 speech
Yu 62 in social work, 69 law 194 psychology
Undergrad 67 overall
Again, this is not to say that touro/landers are right for some, but schools are in different leagues
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