to stay in Kollel ?

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  • #1933881
    bored guy
    Participant

    I’m at the point in my life we’re i’m thinking of leaving kollel.
    the basic question is at what point do i hang up the skates and fulfill my kesuba?
    when do I start getting an education and enter the businesses world?

    I hope the honored people who read this can help me and give their unbiased view.

    #1933926
    Dr. Nat
    Participant

    I don’t know you personally, and I’m saying this as a general rule, but if you are at the point when you are thinking about leaving, then you already have a foot out the door and should be making plans to leave. That’s just the way it is from my (extensive) experience. Guys who are serious about staying in Kollel are focused and do not wonder if they should be leaving. IMHO.

    #1933944
    lakewhut
    Participant

    You can enter the business world and still learn a seder in kollel every day. If you aren’t learning full time seriously anymore then it’s time to do something else that’s productive

    #1933984
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Leaving full time learning should also be done Lshaim Shomayim.Thonk about never stopping to be a ben Torah. Be a ben Torah who will not suffice with kvias itim, but rather take out time to work. The rest of the time you can still enjoy learning. Stay connected…. learn a variety of things. If your going into business , learn Choshen Mish[at. Maybe parts of Yreh Daiah. But Orach Chaim must always be with us. And remember to thank your wife for doing your achrayus for the time you were in Kollel…… forever grateful. Bsimcha…. lchatchila!! and daven for real for siyata dishmaya!

    #1933993
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    As I said in a earlier post, I was working FT, going to college at night and had a learning seder for 4 hours each day and this was in the 90s with no online college courses, focus on something you like doing, such as if your good with your hands property management, like crunching number accounting etc etc

    #1934008
    rational
    Participant

    You should start to get an education at least four years before you run out of money.

    #1934048
    meir G
    Participant

    bored guy- your topic is valid & worthy of discussion , BUT you are not in kollel and have little shaychus to that world , you gave yourself away in just 3 lines. 1000’s have left kollel to enter the next stage of life as a working ben torah , doing hishtadlus to provide for their families. It is a HUGE NES , that somehow ” MONN” ( MONEY) falls from shomayim and lands on your shabbos table. Tomm. night look around see the lights on , heat , hot challos, dips… hold on to the challos for 30 seconds & says hodu lashem kee meyadcha hakol.
    ( when you leave kollel the feeling is never time to hang my skates & fulfill my kesuba”), bored guy on sunday visit some kollelim.

    #1934069
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “It is a HUGE NES , that somehow ” MONN” ( MONEY) falls from shomayim and lands on your shabbos table.”

    Yes, we all believe in neis m’shamayim, like having your shvigger win the lottery and give all the money to you so you can continue learning or you take a day or two away from your shtender and invent an App for to find the best Thursday night chulent joint and then sell the App to a Lakewood startup for a gazillion dollars and then return to your shtender with no concerns about a parnassah.

    #1934072
    ZR1
    Participant

    You cannot make money. Nobody can make money; all your parnasa is determined on Rosh hashana, and there’s nothing you can do to get more or less. The reason people work is because it’s “Derech Eretz” the way of the world, and that we are only awarded our parnasa through toil, as the pasuk says “B’zais Apecha Tochal Lechem”. There are many different ways someone is Amal in this world, however the Mishna in Avos states that a person who is mekabel the Ol Torah throws off the Ol of Malchus (Government) and Ol Derech Eretz. Now to be Amal in Torah (properly) is probably the most difficult thing to do, and very few can do it. This is why many end up “getting a job” or just pretend to be Kollel guys and squander their time (and constrict their parnassa because of it). Ultimately, there is a need for Ameilus, how you do it does not matter for parnassa except it has to be done. But the true Kollel guy will always be able to say Anu Ameilim v’Heim Ameilim…Anu mekabel sachar v’heim aino mekablem sachar. If you want an excellent, in depth perspective on this please see R’ Yisroel Brog’s shiurim on Torah Anytime: Bais Halevy on Betachon.

    #1934075
    catch yourself
    Participant

    meir G +1

    And I wonder if bored guy and Dr. Nat are one and the same poster. Either way, both are trolling here.

    Both posts do not deserve to be quoted. It is completely unnecessary to “learn in Kollel” in order to be an exemplary Yid, but these are attacks on the very idea of “learning in Kollel.”

    It’s true, as meir G points out, that this is a valid topic worthy of discussion. There is not one answer for all cases. This issue is highly personal, and depends on a myriad of variables. A proper decision can only be made with the guidance of a Rebbe who is intimately familiar with the whole situation.

    Like so many other issues, this highlights the importance of having a close relationship with a Rebbe who knows you and your wife and children personally. It is impossible to get the guidance you need without such a relationship.

    #1934154
    The_real_1
    Participant

    @meir_g how could you tell he is not in kollel?
    Also what is the shaychus to friday night?
    Pls explain

    #1934175
    meir G
    Participant

    gaol hadorah; my comment on parnassa being a nes .. is that of course we work hard, yet can we expect a regular working person to make 100K+ . on paper it doesnt add up but somehow hashem is mazmin & am yisroel survives thats the nes i was referring too.

    #1934189
    Dr. Nat
    Participant

    To Catch Yourself:

    Um, Dr. Nat learned in Kollel for 15 years. I think it’s time that you got a new troll sniff-o-meter. And I’m definitely not a bored guy.

    #1934220
    Participant
    Participant

    I could use a new pair of skates, if you’re offering.

    #1934326
    Leiby Wasser
    Participant

    You are obligated to fulfill your Kesuba from the moment you get married. If you can afford to support your wife while learning, keep on learning. If not, then you should be doing whatever reasonable hishtadlus you can to earn more money.

    #1934368
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Guys who are serious about staying in Kollel are focused and do not wonder if they should be leaving. IMHO.

    This part of the comment backs up Dr. Nat’s assertion that he’s not an anti-kollel troll.

    #1934369
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are obligated to fulfill your Kesuba from the moment you get married.

    Just like any other monetary obligation, the other party (the wife in this case) can be moichel.

    #1934374
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as the OP’s question, even if we were to assume (which we shouldn’t) that there are any cr responders whose opinion should be followed, there is clearly not enough information here to answer.

    #1934402
    bored guy
    Participant

    thanks everyone and my decision is , to stay in kollel! but then again an anonymous guy on yw said i’m not in kollel, so clearly my kollel is a bank and someone lied to me.

    #1935187
    meir G
    Participant

    reply to the real 1-? after your question i reread my comment. its so clear , leaving kollel comes with mixed emotions , be it scraping dollars to buy milk , or the disappointment of not finding enough sipuk , & the real fear of what can i do to bring home parnassa … many times the wife wanted & hoped to be able to juggle it all & physically cant.. and feels guilty… but its NEVER time to hang up skates & fulfill kesuva as if to say recess is over enough games time to buckle down…
    the point about friday night challos was to give hope & confidence that somehow you’ll survive & make it . And having food , shelter , lights…is called making it

    #1935296
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Being a person with the experience from Kollel and then moving on to build a business etc…. I can tell you with truth and honesty that when the proper time comes you will feel the need to get up and support your family with a serious job even with your wife also working already to support your valuable Kollel learning day.

    The choice is yours: where are YOU holding PERSONALLY in your faith and trust in Hashem? If you work on yourself and make an attachment with yourself to bitachon and emunah in Hashem and remember that in truth all of a person’s money comes directly from Hashem-its just a question of how rather it’s through a job or a rich family or a lottery ticket win etc….-then Hashem will bench you to be able to remain in learning due to the fact that you are fully aware that the money from your job/in_laws actually is sent directly from Hashem even though yes you did work hard for it all week towards the paycheck.

    #1935423
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sam Klen, can you elaborate what kind of business you built and what kind of hishtadlus you did for it?

    #1935591
    charliehall
    Participant

    “at what point do i hang up the skates and fulfill my kesuba?”

    The day you signed it. You did sign it, right?

    I work a very demanding job, often 10-12 hours a day. But I am now a year into my third Daf Yomi cycle (nowadays only attending internet shiurim) and have learned about 1/3 of Yerushalmi. Torah can and should be the priority for all Jews.

    And as others have pointed out, wealth is a gift from HaShem. We still have to take the steps to accept that gift, but ultimately it is not up to us.

    #1935609
    Dr. Nat
    Participant

    @charliehall

    It’s amazing that you make Torah learning a priority in your life, and hats off to you for having learned Shas twice plus 1/3 of Yerushalmi, but I hope that you don’t think that Daf Yomi in any way compares to the learning that the yungerleit do when learning full-time. It does not. Not in the slightest. Again, with all due respect to you and your accomplishments.

    #1935788

    Dr. Nat >> Daf Yomi in any way compares to the learning that the yungerleit do when learning full-time

    This is a good point. I think some busy professionals sign up for an activity with an eye on regularity to help keep learning. I am doing Daf Y this time, and I see that I am gaining in regularity but I am either not interested in half of pilpul on a page, or I am doing written or mental notes to research interesting issues and ideas that (literally) zoom by. I also found it harder to derail the class with probing questions in the zoom setting. In person, everyone gets into the same mood, less so online.

    On the opposite side, I would like to understand the value of yungerleit learning, if this learning does not transfer into ability to make decision. We see it now with COVID. If you don’t understand ahavta reehah k’mocha, or hillul Hashem, I dare say you may have not fully grasped that tosfos also.

    Maharal, similarly, explains that the value of Bavli (in comparison with Yerushalmi) is developing methodology to resolve new problems. I’d like to see some evidence that yungerleit of the last 50 years have this ability.

    #1935845
    The little I know
    Participant

    Ho hum. Another pro- anti- kollel thread. Sorry, but these are boring, repetitious, and mostly misguided. At the risk of being considered arrogant, I suggest that even those comments here that are written with fill conviction in the positions, are actually missing the boat.

    Each individual is created by HKB”H with his/her unique combination of assets and liabilities. Someone with the gift of arts might be better suited, to the Klal and to himself to dedicate himself to a career where those talents and skills are used best. Someone with excellent analytical skills should utilize those G-d-given gifts towards a goal that becomes Kiddush Hashem. Etc. Those without the abilities to pursue full time learning should NOT be sent to kollel to warm a seat. And we have filled our kollel rosters with way too many of these whose liabilities are being pushed as a community agenda, not to exclude the “image” of the learning boy.

    The kollel vs. daf yomi debate borders on the foolish. Those with the capacity for amkus should definitely pursue it. Those without should not, but pursue the mode of learning that suits their skills. Someone without the zitz-fleish to many hours of learning should not waste his time and others’ money to stay in kollel for long sedarim. Does anyone recall the history of Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a as a young boy? It is reported he made a siyum on Shas for his bar mitzvah. His father, the Steipler ZT”L, channeled his learning to match his skills.

    It is horrible to think that someone stays in kollel because of parents’ images or because of reputation. The brainwashing in yeshivos (and girls schools) about learning boys and kollel careers is a gross disservice to the Klal, and fails to accomplish anything besides generating conflict for so many couples and families.

    When we meet our Maker in BD shel Maaloh after 120, we will NOT be given a multiple choice exam on Maseches Chulin, Shabbos, or Bava Basra. We will be asked whether we established time to learn. Anyone who wants to learn and value learning can do it within whatever career is chosen. And some should do it via kollel while others should engage in other careers. Leaving kollel is not “hanging up the skates”. It is not different from switching chavrusas.

    Lastly, Bored Guy, if you are takeh bored in Kollel, you don’t belong there.

    #1935999
    Shmili_OOngar
    Participant

    I don’t have any advice for you about this, but just I feel like this is something that you should discuss with someone, maybe a Rebbe, who knows you and your situation more than anyone on the CR does. Hatzlacha!

    #1937717
    Werewere1
    Participant

    start working to have the oppurtunity to learn later

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