Toch Sheloshim Yom

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  • #602678
    147
    Participant

    As of tonite, we are Toch Sheloshim Yom, of Yom ha’Atzmaut, and must commence studying the Halochos of Yom ha’Atzmaut.

    #943798
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    1) No bracha is said over hallel. Anyone who begins saying the bracha for hallel is told to sit down and stop being such a frummak. (?????? ???? ??????)

    2) We do not read a haftara. As Rav Soloveichik said when told about the practice “Nu, people have to get to work.” Anyone who even mentions using the haftara of Od Hayom is to be tied up in the main NK shul in London with the word Tziyoyni written on his forehead.

    3) It is permitted to add the rabbanut liturgy at maariv as long as:

    a- the baal tefilla can sing.

    b- I am not there.

    Anything else?

    #943799
    Sam2
    Participant

    Pashtus according to many Rishonim (though not all) is that there is no Inyan to learn 30 days before any holiday except for Pesach and Sukkos. Also, if I recall correctly there are a few Rishonim (maybe only one?) who say that there is no Mitzvah to learn 30 days before a Yom Tov D’Rabannan (assuming that such a thing exists).

    #943800
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Wait, some more minhagim:

    Minhag l’harbos b’seudah — fine, but NO MORE FALAFEL

    Barbecues are great. V’chol hamarbeh harei zeh meshubach

    You may only shave if you promise not to tell me your pipulim permitting it.

    #943801
    cheftze
    Member

    According to some, you don sackcloth and mourn on this day. Others don’t have any public display or sign of the day.

    #943802
    Sam2
    Participant

    Itche: No Pilpul necessary, just an incredibly Pashut Sevara. If you say Hallel then you can shave (and don’t ask me about Rosh Chodeshl; that Hallel is just a Minhag-this Hallel, if you say it, is a Hallel on a Nes).

    #943803
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: If they stuck to such simple svaros it would be wonderful. Instead they feel the need to justify it from all sorts of other angles.

    #943804
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    Why do people feel the need to celebrate an expulsion of Jews from Yerushalayim and surrounding areas – not to mention the loss of thousands of lives as a result?

    #943805
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    This would be harmless Purim-like amusement except that some people really do these celebrations…

    #943806
    Sam2
    Participant

    AIC: Rav Schachter quotes a Chassam Sofer that there’s an Issur of Ba Tosif to make an extra hoiday. How, then could Chazal have made Channukah and Purim? The CH”S answers that there must be a Passuk or a Makor that one must make a holiday on a day which leads to a Geulah having to do with the Binyan or upkeep of the Beis Hamikdash/Eretz Yisrael. Rav Schachter also quotes Rav Herzog who quotes a Ramban that when Jews control Eretz Yisrael a third time they are Muvtach from HKBH that they will never lose it again. That is the source for celebrating Yom Ha’atzma’ut. Because it is a day that is remembered as being part of the Geulah, because HKBH has now promised us that we will never lose Eretz Yisroel again. Interestingly, Rav Schachter points out that no such Havtacha exists on keeping Yerushalayim. Thus, according to Rav Schachter, there is far more reason to celebrate Yom Ha’atzma’ut than Yom Yerushalayim.

    As an aside, one of the most fun Gematriyos I’ve heard in my life is that Yom Ha’atzma’ut has the same Gematria as Bittul Torah.

    #943807
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    Sam2

    Interesting post – and gematriya.

    But what would the Ramba”n consider Jews controlling E”Y?

    Today E”Y is not controlled by Jews, it is controlled by people who happen to be Jewish.

    If the British PM in 1945 had been Jewish would that count as well?

    R’ Elchonon Wasserman HY’D wrote that the irreligious Jews who take charge of the nation (in those days the Yevsektzia – same people, different name) in the end of days are to be considered from the seed of Amalek. I don’t claim to know what that means but would the Ramba”n accept their leadership as qualifying for the havtacha.

    In addition, many of the events leading up to the final geulah mentioned in the Navi are rather frightening. Are we to celebrate a bloody war even if we could positively confirm that it is a necessary part of the geulah?

    #943808
    Sam2
    Participant

    AIC: Of course they’re Jews. The leaders (and people) for much of Bayis Rishon were Resha’im also. We still mourn the loss of that Bayis and Eretz Yisroel. And look at the Rambam in the beginning of Hilchos Channukah. One of the reasons he mentions that Channukah was such a good thing was that Jews regained sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael for another 200 years. Once again, during a large chunk of that time the leaders were Resha’im as well.

    And we celebrate Channukah even though many Jews died fighting those battles. It’s not mentioned, but Jews certainly died defending themselves on Purim. Everyone who dies leading to the G’ula is dying Al Kiddush Hashem. If HKBH has determined that these things are necessary to bring the G’ula, then we should accept them with joy. K’sheim Shemodah Al Hatovah Tzarich Lehodos Al Hara’ah. It’s all good for us because that’s what HKBH knows is best for us in the end. Same thing here.

    #943809
    cheftze
    Member

    Which Jews died, and when, defending themselves on Purim?

    #943810
    R.T.
    Participant

    “Rav Schachter quotes a Chassam Sofer that there’s an Issur of Ba Tosif to make an extra hoiday. How, then could Chazal have made Channukah and Purim?”

    We might answer with the following Svara: That Bal Tosif would be applicable if it were to undermine the *quality* of the yom. To clarify, if Purim were made into a full-fledged Yom Tov, melacha (other than food preparations) would be assur, Tefillin could not be put on, Levayas and a Pidyon HaBen would have to be postponed, etc…

    Chazal were mesaken hanhagos (for Chanukah & Purim) that did not take away from the normal practices of the day.

    #943811
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    Actually, even during the reign of the reshaim of Bayis rishon and sheini klal Yisroel was under the direct leadership of the sanhedrin – not the Israeli Supreme Court.

    #943812
    Sam2
    Participant

    Cheftze: There was a war. Jews died fighting in battles throughout Bayis Rishon. There wasn’t the special protection that they had had in the Midbar and Kibush E”Y. I should have said “presumably”, because there’s no source for it, but do you have any reason to think that no Jews died in those battles?

    RT: Maybe, but that’s not what the Chasam Sofer says.

    AIC: And we have our Poskim nowadays. Do you really think that kings like Menashe or Herod (who killed every member of Chazal he could find) really let the Sanhedrin decide Halachah and how to run the country? I don’t see Z’man Hazeh as any different than what was then. Now as probably better; the government allowed Frum Jews religious freedom.

    #943813
    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    Actually, based on R’ Avigdor Miller’s History series (all sourced from the gemoroh and midrashim) the actually running of the country was left up to the sanhedrin – except for the occasional, though severe, interference.

    Governments have been known to allow Jews religious freedom throughout the golus, both in E”Y and the diaspora.

    My only question was whether the Ramba”n would recognize our E”Y as the one to which such a havtacha applies – this seeming to be the only basis for turning the establishment of the State of Israel into a celebration.

    #943814
    sushee
    Member

    sam, purim occured outside EY, and after bayis rishon.

    #943815
    Sam2
    Participant

    AIC: It’s still Yad Yehudim Tekifin Al Atzman. And I won’t argue with R’ Miller, but that’s against P’shat in Nach.

    Sushe: I’m not sure what your point is. The Chassam Sofer’s point was that it led to the building of Bayis Sheni, which is why we can celebrate it.

    #943816
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    bump

    #943817
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pashtus according to many Rishonim (though not all) is that there is no Inyan to learn 30 days before any holiday except for Pesach and Sukkos. Also, if I recall correctly there are a few Rishonim (maybe only one?) who say that there is no Mitzvah to learn 30 days before a Yom Tov D’Rabannan (assuming that such a thing exists).

    I certainly don’t recall any rishonim who say to learn the halachos of Yom Haatzmaut.

    #943818
    writersoul
    Participant

    Why do people seem to underestimate the amount of Jewishness in the running of Eretz Yisrael today?

    While yemos hamoshiach it ain’t, it’s still a lot more Jewish than a country run by people “who happen to be Jewish.”

    And I love ItcheSrulik’s halachos. I experience the shaving one every yom haatzmaut if you substitute “say hallel” for “shave.”

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