Toiveling Plastic Utensils????

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  • #589204
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Most people in my community toivel non-disposable plastic utensils without a brocho; however 20 years ago toiveling plastic was unheard of anywhere unless my memory is faulty.

    Does anyone here toivel plastic utensils? I do it anyway b/c in the US I always bought from a haimishe store with a mikve so it was no tirche, and here there is no major inconvenience anyway, but I wonder if this is not a misinterpretation or even someone’s minhag (shtus) that got out of hand and spread somehow so that it became the standard.

    #634313
    Curious
    Member

    Is that the same deal as disposable foil pans that you’d like to reuse?

    #634314
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Nope – aluminum pans are aluminum which is a metal and definitely needs toiveling if you think you will reuse them (I used to toivel mine anyway when I lived in the US in case I reused one as a mixing bowl or something while baking for Purim or otherwise doing a lot and losing track). Plastic is a different material altogether and I did not think it needed tevila but now people seem to do it.

    #634315
    Curious
    Member

    Ok, thanks for the clarification Itzik. I’ve only starting toiveling aluminum in the past year or two, though I’ve never heard of toiveling plastic. Even now with the popular plastic “silver” utensils that a lot of people reuse, I’ve never heard of toiveling it.

    #634316
    oomis
    Participant

    As far as what my rov told me, plain plastic does not require tevila. The SILVER colored plastic, however, could possibly be a shailah if the color is derived from a metallic coating,so I would ask a rov (and I never considered that idea before this post, so I am glad it was brought up). If people are toiveling plastic, this is certainly something VERY new to me, and I will refrain from further comment.

    #634317

    No we do not dip plastic!

    #634318
    intellegent
    Member

    aren’t there certain materials that require toiveling v’zehoo?

    #634319
    squeak
    Participant

    I believe German custom is to tovel keilim that are made out of plastic. But I think that only applies to hard plastic, since it is given to becoming a permanent keili, and not soft plastic which is flimsy and disposable.

    In general, one does not need to tovel a disposable item. Even if one reuses the item, if it is intended to be disposable (and the person will eventually dispose of it) it does not require tevila. Hence, a soda can, or a snapple bottle may be refilled with water without tevilla, because they are disposable.

    It follows that if one would decide to keep an item for permanent use (say a soft drink that comes in a nice glass container, such as I’ve seen POM tea come in), it would be proper to tovel it before reusing.

    As with any such issue, the best thing is to find out what you can and then ask the Rov whose psak you follow.

    #634320
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Yes, I meant reusable plastic such as plastic spatulas or microwave dishes. POM tea bottles or glasses are glass which clearly requires tevila without a brocho.

    Thanks re the soda bottles – I reuse spring water jugs for iced coffee and tea and these I never bothered toiveling.

    #634321
    squeak
    Participant

    Since when does Lubavitch follow German customs? I’m sure that my knowledge of German customs (even if it was 100% accurate) shouldn’t be used to determine Lubavitch customs.

    #634322
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Because the original question was about hard plastic and now I see there is a mekor for it in another community even if it seems to be a recent trend in Lubavitch. The jugs is a side issue – I don’t think anyone who picks up a jug and decides to reuse it would run out to toivel it (although I actually just need to cross the street if I want to toivel jugs in the Dneiper river :)).

    #634323
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Why would someone tovel plastic? You only need to tovel glass (w/o a bracha) and metal (w/ a bracha).

    #634324
    intellegent
    Member

    by toiveling plastic keilim, the fact that it is disposable is beside the point! Alumanim pans are different because it is made out of a material that requires toiveling. the only question is regarding the fact that it is disposable. Since when does plastic need tevilla!?!

    #634325
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    That is what I don’t understand. Someone, somewhere either decided with good reason that reusable plastic has the same dinim as glass or someone just plain made up a chumra that somehow became the new standard. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, this was unheard of. It is one thing when you are being careful either because it makes you feel closer or because we learned something new about new technology, or because we’re not sure what we’re really dealing with, but this sounds like plain shtus.

    Still, only one family I know thinks it is outright shtus but because it’s so easy to do I think they do it anyway (just as I do).

    #634326
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Still, only one family I know thinks it is outright shtus but because it’s so easy to do I think they do it anyway (just as I do).

    I am against this practice. There is a halachic reason to tovel, and from what I understand plastic does NOT fall into it. Perpetuating this will most likely mean that the next generation will say its assur to use something plastic if its not toveled! We should follow halacha, and not things that are done because no one knows. Why not just ask your Rav?

    #634327
    squeak
    Participant

    As I said before, it is not a widespread minhag but it is a real one. And it sounds silly when you young ‘uns announce that it was started 15 to 20 years ago. Were any of you around back then to know?

    #634328
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    As I said before, it is not a widespread minhag but it is a real one. And it sounds silly when you young ‘uns announce that it was started 15 to 20 years ago. Were any of you around back then to know?

    I am NOT against following the minhag if thats your minhag. I am against the practice of “someone does it so even though I don’t think its anything relating to halacha I will do it.” The problem is that when you pass this on to your children, they might confuse halacha, minhag, chumra…

    Its like the story of a young women who gets married. She is making a roast for her husband, who asks her why she cut off the end to save for a later date. She said “I don’t know, its because my mother always did it.” So she asks her mother who says “I don’t know, because MY mother always did it.” They go to the grandmother who says “I didn’t have a large enough pan to fit an entire roast.

    #634329
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    I am a lot older than you think :). I remember very well that no one toiveled plastic 20 years ago when I was 22 and buying stuff for my first apartment.

    Sorry, SJS, but people trusting anything I may offer them or bring to shul is more important than worrying about a practice that is really harmless becoming the new standard. I just wanted to know if there is a reason for it; I’m not going to be the one who breaks the practice.

    Worst thing that can happen is that when people go to haimishe stores to buy metal and glassware because of the mikve, they’ll buy plastic there too instead of spending gas money to save a few pennies buying it at a chain store, and more money will stay in the community.

    #634330
    Jothar
    Member

    If I recall correctly, The original de’oraysah was either on all metals (R’ Dovid Feinstein) or on 6 metals (Rabbi Belsky). Glass is derabannan, since it is melted and forged like metal. Platic was never included in the gezeirah, just like potatoes were never included in the gezeirah of kitniyus. Rabbi Belsky (according to my brother) holds even aluminum doesn’t require tevila, since it’s a metal not included in the passuk, and no gezeirah derabbanan on it.

    When I forwarded my brother a text I got that many rebbes want the plane from flight 1549 because it was toiveled, he told me that Rabbi belsky holds aluminum does not require tevila. That opened up other points, like air bubbles inside the plane and the fact that the plane bottom got shredded, so no longer a beis kibbul and no longer a kli.

    Bottom line- plastic is definitely not a metal and not glass. It’s a logical extension of a derabananan, but we do not do these things today, unless specifically ordered to by an acharon. (v Yoreh deiah 87 and the machlokes Shach and Pri chadash if we extend the gezeirah of putting fish scales in fish blood to putting almonds next to almond milk). Toiveling plastic is either am haaratzus or a chumra yeseira, albeit a logical one.

    #634331
    feivel
    Participant

    PLASTIC DOES NOT NEED TVEILA

    whether disposable or not, thick or thin.

    if it is covered by a metal layer, i dont know, but i would doubt that it would need tveila

    #634332
    intellegent
    Member

    reuven bought a cup that was made out of thick plastic and thought it was glass. He toiveled it.

    Shimon saw Reuven toiveling plastic so he toiveled his plastic salad bowl

    Levi saw Shimon and since he was of the opinion that disposable things have to be toiveled if they will be reused. He toiveled his pack of 500 plastic plates.

    This story never happened but somthing similar probably did!

    Itz, one thing i don’t get, if you think it’s a shtus, why do you do it???

    Also, is anyone positive that this can fall into the catagory of chumra? As far as I know, a chumra has to have some kind of basis to it in halacha not stam a misconception!

    By the way, do I need to toivel my husbands socks? what if someone finds it on the floor of the mikva thinks it’s his and takes it home. his wife maybe uses socks to hold apples in or to strain her soup and maybe they are of the opinion that cotton needs tvila.

    (btw, if there is some kind of source that plastic needs tvila, I don’t want to make fun of that minhag. I just think it’s rediculous to toivel plastic just because you see your neighbors doing it. I never heard of this practice before. It would be a good minhag for me because it would be simpler for me to wash the dishes than to toivel 500 plastic plates. So i’d save money!)

    #634333
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Glass is derabannan, since it is melted and forged like metal.


    Thanks – and herein lies the reason for the misunderstanding.

    Much plastic nowadays is recycled or partly recycled where the original keli is shredded and then the shredded chips are melted and formed in order to make the new keli.

    #634334
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    No matter what, disposables do not have to be toiveled unless you KNOW you will reuse them. Any Purim when I bake, I toivel my aluminum disposables because I know that in the balagan of trying to bake 8 or 9 cakes and trays of baklava, I will use one of those disposables as a mixing bowl at least once while my mixing bowl is in use for something else. And over here, aluminum disposables have to be brought in from abroad and anyone who bothers doing that uses them a couple of times for cookies (I guess) or something else that doesn’t ruin them.

    Also see my post where I believe I may well have gotten to the source of the practice.

    Now, who here holds that one must unravel the entire roll of tin foil and toivel every centimeter of it before making a tin foil shtreimel for Purim?????

    #634335
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Sorry, SJS, but people trusting anything I may offer them or bring to shul is more important than worrying about a practice that is really harmless becoming the new standard.

    I disagree Itzik. People implementing their own practices WITHOUT halachic basis is very dangerous. Toveling plastic may not be a big deal, but if people follow just based on what his neighbor does…thats a scary thought. Its a slippery slope to doing things against halacha.

    #634337
    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC

    for once I agree with you! 🙂

    it’s rediculous

    If someone comes up with a source then I accept but if it is done plain out of pure stupidity then it’s crazy.

    #634338
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    If the connection to recycled plastic is correct then it is a very logical practice even if there may be a flaw in the halachic reasoning. If it leads to toiveling with a brocho which is not the case THEN we have a problem.

    The more I look into it the more it makes sense based on comparison to glass; most plastic utensils of the type we toivel are thermoplastics that can be remolded. Add to this the recycling issue that will beome more and more common as the environmental laws get stricter, and you have a very real reason for this practice.

    In fact some of the reasoning I found AGAINST toiveling plastic includes that there was no plastic at the time of the gezera to toivel. That bothers me far more than perhaps toiveling without a brocho for no reason which is harmless because that kind of use of the historical precedent can be and is used to excuse all kinds of improper practices. We see it all the time here when people try to excuse lax or non-existent hair covering today because that is what was done in turbulent, economically desperate post WWI Europe. (The other reason I have found which is that plastic is not choshuve is understandable; plastic microwave dishes and cooking utensils seem to have a short lifespan and are rather cheap).

    So, I will continue to toivel my plastic. If someone comes along and starts toiveling cardboard THEN I might start to worry.

    #634340
    oomis
    Participant

    1)Now, who here holds that one must unravel the entire roll of tin foil and toivel every centimeter of it before making a tin foil shtreimel for Purim?????

    Are you kidding – Only if one plans to eat his hat!

    2)So, I will continue to toivel my plastic. If someone comes along and starts toiveling cardboard THEN I might start to worry.

    Itzik, you may have said that in jest, but honestly – what is the difference between toiveling plastic utensils made from recycled plastic and say, a cardboard box made from recycled paper pulp, that holds a cake? By the logic that has been used, if you do one, then you takeh SHOULD do the other. Does anyone know how paper is made – it comes from trees. But wait – WOOD does not require tevila, and neither does plastic, acording to the halachos of tevilas keilim that I just saw on-line, which gave an extensive and impressive list of what needs to be toiveled and whether or not a brocha is made.

    These things are not harmless at all, as one might think. They are very dangerous practices of people who are changing the Torah’s requirements (thinking they are being extra-pious because of it), and altering the Torah is an aveira, not harmless at all. Kol hamosif, goraya. The danger is in the clearcut eventual disunity it cause among Jews. What’s next, those Jews who are doing this will start saying you can’t use a caterer who is not makpid to toivel his plastic cutlery?

    If a godol hador who knows what he is talking about AND also knows exactly how these things are made and processed, comes out with a p’sak (not just an “eitzah”) that we MUST toivel our plastic ware, I will be first in line at the mikveh.

    #634341
    intellegent
    Member

    itzik

    your logic doesn’t make so much sense in my opinion. just because you think it makes sense to toivel plastic, doesn’t mean it does. a rav/posek makes such a decision. does this have any basis from such a source or just some stupid person who thinks he is being “machmir”. you can’t just come up with your own halachos or even chumros. they have to have some basis in reality! why do you think it is more strange to toivel cardboard rather than plastic? they both seem equally strange to me! (I am coming from a place where we toivel alumanim pans, maaser all israeli products [but only food, not our plastic dishes] and do various other chumros that many people never heard of. But they ALL have a basis in Halacha. Of course others who don’t do these things are perfectly frum. But this is what we do and that’s fine, as long as there is a basis to it. If I decide that we should maaser our dishes or toivel our food or do anything of the sort than I am a crazy lunatic, not machmir. As oomis says, if there is a basis in halacha and someone who we hold by comes out with a psak I will be second in line after her 🙂 )

    #634342
    Jothar
    Member

    Here is a halacha snippet from another website. Not that rov poskim argue on this.

    Those who believe that one should immerse plastic utensils without a blessing (see Darkei Teshuva 120:14 and Dayan Weiss, Teshuvot Minchat Yitzchak 3:76-78 and 4:114) present the following argument: The Rabbis require glass utensils to be immersed due to their similarity to metal utensils, in that both metal and glass utensils can be repaired if they are broken or shattered. The minority view argues that since plastic utensils can be repaired, they are also required to be immersed due to their similarity to metal utensils. These authorities suggest that the rabbinic enactment recorded in the Talmud should be viewed as a requirement to immerse any utensil that can be repaired if broken.

    #634343
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    If people decide to be makpid on caterers toiveling plastic (a non issue in NY because the plastic cutlery used by caterers comes from a haimishe supplier and even has a hechsher) then guess what, the caterers will just have to do it.

    However, since I know that my community toivels plastic, I automatically assume that any establishment under the hashgocho of a reliable rav from our community anywhere in the world does toivel any plastic utensils used, and that if such a rav allows members of his community to eat at an establishment under another hashgocho, that this is either not a major/pertinent issue or that it is also the practice of that hashgocho.

    And the question is – why do we toivel keilim? Is it a tircha and a pesky quirk that we try to get out of or is it what it indeed is – part of elevating something that came from klipa (could have been made by oivdei avoido zoro etc) to the highest kedusha of being used to prepare food that we eat so we can serve Hashem. Since I hold the latter, I am only too happy to be able to do that by simply stopping by the mikveh on my way back from buying some new plastic microwave containers.

    #634344
    intellegent
    Member

    according to jothar there is a basis for toiveling plastic so by all means do so, but not because your neighbors do and even though you think it is a shtus, you do as well.

    #634345
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Thanks for this, Jothar. These are certainly both sources that can be relied on.

    #634346
    Jothar
    Member

    Itzik_s, we don’t darshen taamei hamitzvos. And if halacha paskens that there is no need, then there is no klipah to be elevated.

    #634347
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    This is what I wanted to know – is there a mekor for it. And now it is clear that there is and that my original analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, if it is a community practice I would do it even if I feel it may be doubtful. Communities have standards and minhagim and not going along with them only creates machloikes and suspicion.

    #634348
    Jothar
    Member

    There is a mekor, but it’s a minority opinion. This is a derabanan, not a deoraysah.Even those who are makpid would certainly agree that eating from plastic keilim which weren’t toiveled is not a problem. Hamachmir yachmir leatzmo.

    #634349
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Nevertheless, if it is a community practice I would do it even if I feel it may be doubtful. Communities have standards and minhagim and not going along with them only creates machloikes and suspicion.

    Do me a favor Itzik, why not ask your LOR about it?

    #634350
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    I know what I do and what he does.

    I wanted to see what other communities and individuals do because at first it made no sense to me but it is now clear where it came from.

    Chabad tends to follow Chassidishe psak and now that I see which sources support this I understand fully where it comes from. That is what this board should be all about.

    Obviously the Minchas Yitzchok and the Darkei Tshuva believe there is a klipa to be elevated.

    Also, I will add my voice to those who really do not want to hear the opinions of the more modern posters when asking about halacha and minhagim. I was interested in knowing whether other communities did this, not for opinions as to where this will lead. I see far more communities and individuals disintegrating because of allowing and encouraging bending of rules in order to make them more palatable to those who are breaking them anyway as opposed to people resenting a new communal stringency or practice (when it is explained properly as opposed to being forced down people’s throats).

    In fact I don’t like to ask questions of this type (halachic but not asking for psak) anywhere online because the modern contingent of any online community tends to be the most vocal and the least sensitive and those who are questioning can often use these opinions as the first excuse toward throwing it all off.

    And not once did I say that anyone should worry about eating from non toiveled plastic (so long as the person or establishment is reliable otherwise). In fact considering Rav Belsky’s influence in kashrus we just might be eating from places or factories that do not toivel their aluminum.

    #634351
    intellegent
    Member

    Itzik_s

    I am definitely NOT modern. I don’t agree with bending rules etc either. I just don’t think making up chumros makes sense. If you want to maaser your food because that is what your family, posek, etc does, that’s fine because it has a basis in halacha. If someone kashers their own chickens it doesn’t mean that someone who does not is not eating kosher chickens they just want to be extra careful. someone who doesn’t mish on pesach is doing that because of the minhag but there is a background to the minhag! toiveling a material that does not require tevilla is not being extra careful or following a minhag.

    #634352
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    That is what I don’t understand. Someone, somewhere either decided with good reason that reusable plastic has the same dinim as glass or someone just plain made up a chumra that somehow became the new standard.

    This is your quote from a ways up.

    Also, I will add my voice to those who really do not want to hear the opinions of the more modern posters when asking about halacha and minhagim. I was interested in knowing whether other communities did this, not for opinions as to where this will lead. I see far more communities and individuals disintegrating because of allowing and encouraging bending of rules in order to make them more palatable to those who are breaking them anyway as opposed to people resenting a new communal stringency or practice (when it is explained properly as opposed to being forced down people’s throats).

    In fact I don’t like to ask questions of this type (halachic but not asking for psak) anywhere online because the modern contingent of any online community tends to be the most vocal and the least sensitive and those who are questioning can often use these opinions as the first excuse toward throwing it all off.

    I assume you are talking about me as the modern contingent. Let me assure you that I respect when people follow their minhagim and chumras – when they are based in something. I am against people either making up minhagim or just doing something because others do it. It is very dangerous in BOTH directions (in fact, it is the same idea).

    What if a young woman, newly engaged, goes to the mikvah to tovel keilim and knows “only glass gets toveled w/o a bracha and metal gets toveled with a bracha.” She enters the mikvah and realizes what she has is glass and plastic. She knows you don’t make a bracha on glass, so she starts with the plastic and mistakingly makes a bracha. Why? All because it was just something that people did, not because it was explained.

    If you reread my posts, you will see that at no point did I say “oh its a stupid minhag” or anything like that. Just that its dangerous to follow the community without halachic backing.

    #634353
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Intelegent – but see what happened in the end? Someone was kind enough to provide the makor for it and I immediately understood why we do it. It was not made up in the end; it is Chassidishe psak. Then there was the interesting mention that it is done in German communities as well.

    That is why I asked here and not on our Chabad site where it was discussed but not with proper sources.

    SJS – and our brides and our young people who are all over the world toiveling dishes for communal Shabbos meals and Pesach sedorim learn that you also toivel plastic without a brocho. So, if there is no metal the plastic and glass are dipped without a brocho – end of story.

    No one is suddenly going to start making a brocho on ANY non metal item in ANY community.

    #634354
    intellegent
    Member

    Itzik_s

    I just didn’t like the fact that you were doing something that you openly referred to as a shtus. if it is a minhag that has a basis then fine.

    #634355
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    🙂 I said as part of the discussion that I thought it sounded like a shtus. If I knew it were a shtus it would only be because someone told me it was a shtus and/or that hardly anyone does it (or that it was something silly or harmful such as hmmm..kashering wood by libum LOL when we know that beyameinu only braces on teeth are kashered by libum). Instead I found one person who isn’t sure but does it anyway which is where I stood until I learned what I did here.

    I then found out otherwise – and I am not surprised because you cannot possibly spread a shtus minhag across every continent except Antarctica including places where the mikveh could be a lake or river and toiveling anything takes mesiras nefesh (I know because I toiveled stuff in lakes and rivers after a mikveh was burnt down in Moscow and before a new one was built).

    #634356
    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Besides, in Chassidus there is such a thing as shtus d’kdusha and while it refers to going to great lengths to be besimcha especially so as to overturn a gezera, this could also qualify if it were not proven to be valid as regardless of technicalities it is elevating the plastic vessel.

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