Torah values are NOT Chicago values!
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- This topic has 34 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 10 months ago by gregaaron.
August 1, 2012 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #604380
Why do so many Jews, even Frum ones, Kvell when a Jew gets a position of power?
I’m not talking about guys like King Bloomy, but guys who are openly Jewish. Guys like Rahm Emanuel. He is openly Jewish and Israeli. He took his son to Israel for his Bar Mitzva. Yidden were/are so proud to have a guy like this in politics. Well, I’m not! He made a public anouncement that Chick-Fil-A’s values are not Chicago’s values. Who are you to say what Chicago’s values are? Chick-fil-A’s values happen to be the Torah’s values also. Are you saying anybody who keeps the Torah is not welcome in Chicago? This country was built on religious freedom. And that means amongst many things that we are free from religious persecution. Who are you to imply that Chick-fil-A is not welcome in Chicago? Because they support Anti-Toieva orgs. and have come out publicly against Toeiva? Them not being PC doesn’t give you the right to attack where they open their businesses or where they want to open. I got news for you Mr. Mayor – your values are Anti-Torah and Anti-American!August 1, 2012 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #889583MorahRachMember
I started a semi similar thread. I am in total agreement with your. I’m ashamed that Emanuel is Jewish. He definitely does not hold the views of his people as a whole.August 1, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #889584
Curiosity approves this message.August 1, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #889585Rav TuvParticipant
Openly Jewish? Rahm is mechallel Shabbos, eats treif. So he took his kid to Israel for s bar-mitzva. Rahm is as left as they come.No surprise at all that his values are anti-Torah. Besides he’s a pol and unfortunately they are a huge voting bloc.August 2, 2012 12:49 am at 12:49 am #889586candy613Member
ya I heard all about that, and as a proud chicagoan, I felt very disappointed with that.August 2, 2012 9:37 am at 9:37 am #889587Ðash®Participant
Rahm Emanuel’s Job isn’t to represent the Torah’s values, it’s to Represent Chicago’s values. Whether or not they represent Chicago’s values can be discussed on The Chicago World’s website.August 2, 2012 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #889588yytzParticipant
According to Wikpedia, Emanuel belongs to a MO congregation in Chicago. It’s strange and unfortunate that his connection with traditional Judaism would not make him more respectful of other positions on gay marriage.
It’s also bizarre that he would try to ban a business from a city because he has the same political opinion that OBAMA HIMSELF had until a few months ago.
Anyway, he should know that according to current First Amendment jurisprudence, it is *definitely* a violation of someone’s constitutional rights to deny them a permit for a business because of that person’s religious or political views.
So the whole gay marriage thing has reached witch-hunt proportions. Maybe this is a message from Hashem that we should be looking into aliyah? It just became a little harder to raise a child to be a proud Torah Jew in the US (now that the inability for gays to marry under Orthodox Judaism will probably be denounced as some kind of crime against humanity).August 2, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #889589
Yytz they’re having a toeiva parade in Jerusalem right now. Yimach shemum v’zichrum, Amen!August 2, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #889590
musser zoger -“Openly Jewish? Rahm is mechallel Shabbos, eats treif. So he took his kid to Israel for s bar-mitzva. Rahm is as left as they come.No surprise at all that his values are anti-Torah.”
Yes, he fits the definition of openly Jewish. Sending your kids to Jewish school -giving them a Bar Mitzva is what the world sees, not his Aveiros. They see this by the media coverage he gets for these things. Unfortunately when some Frum Jews and of course not so Frum ones read about his observance they Kvell about him. And this was my point.August 2, 2012 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #889591🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
According to Wikpedia, Emanuel belongs to a MO congregation in Chicago
Don’t believe everything you read
I am making a public macho’o – this thread title is very misleading!!!!! Many of us here are strongly lobbying for Chick-fil-A to open their glatt kosher branch right in our backyard!!!!!August 2, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #889592
Whomever said it was?
“Whether or not they represent Chicago’s values can be discussed on The Chicago World’s website.”
Even if R. Emanuel wasn’t a Jew, his opinions regarding religion, being that he is a public figure, has revelance to this (YWN)website!August 2, 2012 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #889593
I can’t believe that I am reading this! Health (OP) said:
“Chick-fil-A’s values happen to be the Torah’s values also. “
Chick-fil-A is in the business of serving treif food. They sell neveilos, treifos, basar b’cholov, etc. Chick-fil-A has restaurants in Jewish neighborhoods, and they have Jewish customers. I cannot believe that the posters in this thread think that encouraging Jews to eat treif is a Torah value.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.August 2, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #889594
dd -“Chick-fil-A is in the business of serving treif food. They sell neveilos, treifos, basar b’cholov, etc. Chick-fil-A has restaurants in Jewish neighborhoods, and they have Jewish customers. I cannot believe that the posters in this thread think that encouraging Jews to eat treif is a Torah value.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.”
Mr. Troll – go back to your bridge. A Goy can sell Tarfos. A Yid just can’t eat or buy them to eat. Stick to the topic of Toeiva.August 2, 2012 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #889595🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I cannot believe that the posters in this thread think that encouraging Jews to eat treif is a Torah value.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
huh?????August 2, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #889596hakohen53Participant
Maybe my comment here belongs in a different thread, but it is tangentially related here because of what the mayor of Chicago wishes to do.
The gay rights groups, in order to push their agenda, have always claimed that they don’t want to force others to share their beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. All they claimed to want is to protect their rights and not to be discriminated against. We always said that this was not true and that it is a slippery slope. Well, we just started sliding down that slope a little further.
Mayor Emanuel, and others, now want to prohibit Chick-fil-A from even opening up and conducting business in their cities, just because the owner may have an OPINION which is not illegal to have, but doesn’t comport with their political correctness. No one claims that Chick-fil-A ever discriminated against customers, employess or potential employees because of their sexual orientation. They want to close down the business just because the owner has an opinion that they don’t share.
I guess if you disagree with the Left, then you just don’t deserve to make a living – or maybe even to live! But if we were to take similar actions against someone on the Left for his political correctness, they would immediately label us as homophobic racists!August 3, 2012 1:07 am at 1:07 am #889597ChaimShamayimKeymaster
Basically it comes down to this: HOW IN THE RIGHT MIND CAN JEWS BE LIBERALS OR VOTE FOR OBAMA???????? THE PARTY HAS TOTALLY SHIFTED AGAINST TORAH VALUES & ISRAEL…….IN 2008 77 % VOTED FOR OBAMA NOW ITS STILL A WHOPPING 68%????? WHY????August 3, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #889598yytzParticipant
Hakohen, good point. The crazy thing is that at least half the country opposes gay marriage. So according to Rahm Emmanuel, none of those 100 million people should be able to open a business in Chicago if they are open about their political position on gay marriage. Unbelievable. This wouldn’t have happened if Obama hadn’t come out in favor.
In Israel, the gay marriage debate will never get to this level — no prime minister would ever say you’re not welcome in my city if you’re not in favor of gay marriage, because they know that a large and growing segment of the population has traditional beliefs and is not going to change their minds. In the US, by contrast, gay rights supporters believe that public acceptance of gay marriage is inevitable.
This is a serious argument for aliyah. Orthodox Jews growing up in the US who come in contact with mainstream culture will, at least in some cases, be ashamed of their religion because it doesn’t fit with the nearly-mandatory pro-toevah views, and abandon Orthodoxy in order to not be considered “hateful” and “backward.” This will never be anywhere near as big of a problem in Israel.August 3, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #889599
Clearly, some of the posters didn’t understand my point about Chick-fil-A selling treif. It’s called irony.
Here we have a company that sells treif food to Jews and no one blinks – and they shouldn’t. The obligation to avoid treif falls on to the Jewish person. Unfortunately, many Jewish people have lost their way (usually as tinokos shenishbu) and eat treif. And even then, we don’t (and shouldn’t) scream at them, and we don’t try to outlaw treif restaurants. Instead, we try to influence the individuals to return to the ways of the Torah.
However, when it comes to gay marriage, we get people like the original poster ranting about toeiva. Of course, it’s not a perfect analogy – I did look at Chick-fil-A’s menu to see if they serve shellfish, but they don’t. Shellfish would have been a better analogy since the Torah calls them toeiva as well. And there is also the difference about what is muttar to a ben-Noach.
The Torah doesn’t say anything about gay marriage. The Torah assurs and condemns certain activities that gays do. But I don’t understand why we can’t treat gays in our communities simply as people who have a strong ta’aveh that most of us don’t have, and who give in to this ta’aveh. We should be mekarev them the same way we would be mekarev anyone else.
And as far as government policy about recognizing marriage between gays – I don’t see why it is any of our concern. I certainly don’t see why it brings out such rabid condemnation. As a community we don’t even vocally oppose institutions of definite avodah zora.
I certainly would not say that kol hapasul bemumo pasul for everyone who opposes gays, but certainly there is psychological evidence that it sometimes applies to those who are most vehemently anti gay.August 3, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #889600
dd – The fact that your opinion is what it is, is the strongest reason why the “pride” filth is opposed so strongly. Desensitization. The fact that you don’t view it as disgusting to the point of not wanting to think about it reveals how society has taken its toll on your sensitivity for right and wrong. Saying those who are against it the most have psychological netias towards it is a pathetic idea used by the baalei toeivas themselves and their supporters to suppress those who oppose them. You should really rethink your position.August 3, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #889601choppyParticipant
dd: The gays are publicly proclaiming (by demanding recognition of their status and by publicly proclaiming their so-called “orientation”) that they engage in a violation of the sheva mitzvos. (Mesechtes Chullin 92a.) Furthermore, the gemora specifically says the goyim are NOT permitted to offer civil marriage to homosexuals.
Additionally, the AMERICAN PEOPLE (i.e. the goyim) oppose toeiva marriage. In 32 out of 32 public votes, they always voted it down. We surely can oppose what the goyim in the country rightfully oppose!August 3, 2012 6:10 am at 6:10 am #889602
dd -“Here we have a company that sells treif food to Jews and no one blinks – and they shouldn’t.
However, when it comes to gay marriage, we get people like the original poster ranting about toeiva.”
You came here to poke fun (irony), but you didn’t even understand my point. My point wasn’t against Toeiva -I’ve posted and ranted against them umteen times – my post was regarding those Jews -Frum or not – who are happy and proud when we have a Jewish politician, no matter how Anti-Torah his views are.
“The Torah doesn’t say anything about gay marriage. The Torah assurs and condemns certain activities that gays do.”
This is your Am Haarotzos speaking. The Gemmora says that Hashem brings destruction to the world when they write Kesubos one to another -ie. civil marriage.
“And as far as government policy about recognizing marriage between gays – I don’t see why it is any of our concern. I certainly don’t see why it brings out such rabid condemnation. As a community we don’t even vocally oppose institutions of definite avodah zora.”
I just posted why we care -it brings destruction to the world.
“I certainly would not say that kol hapasul bemumo pasul for everyone who opposes gays, but certainly there is psychological evidence that it sometimes applies to those who are most vehemently anti gay.”
This shows how assimilated you are. This ridiculous argument you picked up from the militant Toeiva camp. In order to shut up any opposition to them -they resort to mind games. I truly hope you really don’t believe this and are just rebounding what you heard from them.
That’s a big problem in the US -lots of people here are passive and don’t stand up for their beliefs. But it doesn’t matter -they still have make laws outlawing the other 6 Mitzvos Bnai Noach. Them keeping it themselves is Not good enough. So if a Goy is PC regarding Toeiva “rights”, then they aren’t keeping the seventh Mitzva.August 3, 2012 7:14 am at 7:14 am #889603KozovMember
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Also, this affects Yidden r”l.August 3, 2012 9:45 am at 9:45 am #889604on the ballParticipant
“Yytz they’re having a toeiva parade in Jerusalem right now. Yimach shemum v’zichrum, Amen!”
I’ve heard that we are not supposed to use this expression about fellow Jews no matter how low they have become. This is especially while they are still alive when we daven they still do Teshuva.
With the exception of Shabesai Zvi and Oso Ha’ishAugust 3, 2012 10:20 am at 10:20 am #889605
On the ball – didn’t know that, but in my defense many of them who partake in the toeiva parade aren’t Jews. They’re Europeans who fly in to Israel just to spread their filth.August 3, 2012 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #889606gregaaronMember
The Torah doesn’t say anything about gay marriage. The Torah assurs and condemns certain activities that gays do. But I don’t understand why we can’t treat gays in our communities simply as people who have a strong ta’aveh that most of us don’t have, and who give in to this ta’aveh.
So the same arguments can be made for those who would be unfaithful to their spouses. And further down the slippery slope (actually not necessarily further down), there would be tolerance for bestiality, incest and child molestation. After all, they’re just giving in to their tayvos.
(Of course, as I’ve said many times, one who has the tayva and does not give in to it will be getting a portion of olam haba that makes me jealous. But the fact that there are people who feel that way doesn’t mean we have to bend over backwards to accommodate twisted marriage.)August 3, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #889607nitpickerParticipant
“With the exception of Shabesai Zvi and Oso Ha’ish”
And I wonder if shabsi tsvi is still an exeption since he no longer has any influence.August 3, 2012 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #889608kollel_wifeParticipant
On the ball:
The word “toeiva” here isn’t used to describe a specific Jew (and we do hope they will all do teshuva). It’s used to describe a lifestyle.
It’s the word that writers (perhaps in consultation with gedolim) have been using in frum periodicals and websites to avoid using the words used g__ and homo______. I personally am not comfortable using those words as well.August 3, 2012 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #889609
Thank you for the responses to my post. It is good to see thoughtful ideas about whether there is a Torah view on civil gay marriage and the halachic requirements for tochacha when a non-Jew is violating one of the sheva mitzvos. (I honestly do appreciate it. It rasies the level of the conversation.)
But I will believe that the visceral attitude towards gays is l’shem shomayim, when I see the same attitude towards Hindus. Yes, Hindus hold public parades to celebrate their adherence to avodah zara.August 3, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #889610
BTW, I completely agree with HaKohen53’s point that Emanuel has no business interfering with a business based on the owner’s stated opinion about a controversial issue. And the left is particularly hypocritical about championing the freedom of expression while simultaneously trying to limit that freedom for anyone on the right.
By the same token, we Jews benefit from the freedom that society has given us. There are no doubt Christians who feel that our rejection of their messiah is offensive. But we would rightly scream antisemitism if anyone tried to stop us from publicly practicing or celebrating our religion. So it is hypocritical when frum Jews try to deny rights to gays. Being in a free society cuts both ways.August 3, 2012 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #889611on the ballParticipant
Yes Shabesai Zvi’s influence is still there in the descendants of all the Jews who were led astray by him who probably are not Shomer Torah Umitzvos.August 3, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #889612choppyParticipant
dd: Again, MOST AMERICANS oppose sodomy marriage. 32 States had votes. Sodomy marriage lost in ALL 32 States that held public referendums. We Jews should at least be as opposed to this travesty as non-Jewish Americans clearly are.
Additionally, sodomy is worse than avoda zora. The Gemora says Hashem didn’t destroy the goyim because they didn’t institute civil marriage for sodomites. Even though they did practive avoda zora, he didn’t destroy them, since they didn’t grant legitimate recognition to the sodomites.August 3, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #889613TheGoqParticipant
As a native Chicagoan i take umbrage at this thread title Mayor Emanuel was dead wrong on this chik fil a deal but he does not represent the frum community of Chicago which is a great community!! i ask the op to retract this pugnacious thread title (fyi the mayors father was my pediatrician and the father is just as ornery as the son not much of a bedside manner)August 5, 2012 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #889614
I will Not retract it because the title is based on the Mayor’s words. He feels he represents Chicago’s values, no one else, and I discussed this in my opening paragraph. So I wasn’t discussing the Frum people of Chicago’s values -I was discussing “Chicago’s values”. As a matter of fact I wrote – “Who are you to say what Chicago’s values are?” If you agree with me say so -there is no reason to get on the defensive.August 5, 2012 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #889615
dd -“But I will believe that the visceral attitude towards gays is l’shem shomayim, when I see the same attitude towards Hindus. Yes, Hindus hold public parades to celebrate their adherence to avodah zara.”
I’m not aware much about this Hindu religion, but I’ll take your word that it’s AZ. So, do they have these parades in the US or just in India? And even if they have them here -I don’t know about them -so obviously they either get little or no media coverage. So you should have judged the posters here L’caf Zecus -the Toeiva issue gets tons of media coverage and politicians go to these events. This requires a much greater Machoh than s/o committing AZ in some corner somewhere!August 5, 2012 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #889616gregaaronMember
So it is hypocritical when frum Jews try to deny rights to gays.
They have the same rights we do.
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