October 25, 2022 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2132403
I have been reading the CR discussions about YU and the new clubs and there’s a lot of talk about the Torah World. There is no Torah World. There is no monopoly on the Torah. The Torah does not belong in any one specific community. The Torah is munachas bekeren zavis and anyone can be a part of it. Stop with these silly divisions. Torah world, Yeshiva world. Lo haya velo nivrah.October 25, 2022 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2132441Little FroggieParticipant
OK. I’m starting to stop… or maybe stopping to start…
Oh.. and btw THAT was Yanni’s great, grave mistake, מונחת בקרן זווית.
NO. NO NO!!! We have a Mesorah that must be transmitted father to son, Rav to Talmid. Torah is NOT a free for all. ישרפו ואל ימסרו… and the little that comes to mind about the great tragedy NS darkness that descended when the Torah was formally ‘translated’. So no, I mean yes. There is a Torah World. And that’s where the the Torah will be disseminated, discussed, learned, toiled… לא עשה כן לכל גוי, not for the ‘neighbors’ or the like minded.October 25, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2132442DovidRichman613Participant
There is a “Torah World”, we’ve had the same set of values for the last +3,000 years. To change that now because of donors and secular society is a shame to the modern-Orthodox community.
Also, girls learning gemara? Come on, get real.October 25, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2132450Get-r-dunParticipant
The “Torah Velt” disagrees with youOctober 25, 2022 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #21325061Participant
Dovid. What about covering up for abuse or lying to the government about education in order to get funds?October 25, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2132513☕️coffee addictParticipant
You are talking about individual people, Dovid is talking about modern orthodoxy as a wholeOctober 25, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2132516
1 – no individual institution is perfect, but the Torah we pass down is. The Torah world doesn’t sanction the first thing you said, and the latter is a machlokes. The opposing rabbonim might make you feel revolted, but that’s not their fault.October 25, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2132517
I also believe that in earnest, people in yeshiva administrations simply did not understand the far reaching psychological impact of abuse. It’s not a pasuk in chumash. It’s something the entire world didn’t understand until recently. I’m sure gedolim wouldn’t have approved of it, but to an average Jew, disrupting major mosdos over it seemed like overkill. It was a mistake, but i think it was an innocent one, without the intention to harm victims. The proof is that as awareness spreads, that “sweeping under the rug” is becoming FAR less common.October 25, 2022 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #21325321Participant
There have been more than one mistake and you don’t need an expert to know that abuse will damage people.October 25, 2022 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #2132538
1 – can you explain on a surface level why abuse causes such profound damage? It’s a metzius, but even the experts don’t quite understand it.October 26, 2022 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2132540
What are you talking about? What experts don’t understand it? The CR experts?October 26, 2022 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2132581
Syag, from what I’ve read, there isn’t a clear understanding that bridges the gap between an abusive incident(or several) and the deep, hellish trauma that follows it, especially in non-violent circumstances. Many therapists have observed that there’s a very powerful guilt in the victims, others point to the breech of trust, but they’re never certain as to how it leads to a cycle of abuse, suicide, and other horrific thingsOctober 26, 2022 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2132595DaMosheParticipant
Froggie, I think he meant Torah is open to all Jews. Yes, we have a mesorah, but that doesn’t limit who can learn Torah. What about an orphan? Does he miss out because he may not have a father? A baal teshuvah, whose father doesn’t want him to become frum?
For the question of girls learning Gemara, it’s not so simple. I once posted the name of an article which went through the different views on it. All agree that women aren’t obligated to learn Torah, but many are of the opinion that a woman may learn Gemara if she wants to.
As far as our traditions being 3,000 years old, and not having changed – that is completely incorrect. Chassidus is only a few hundred years old, and it represented a radical shift in beliefs. The impact it had on the frum world as a whole was huge, and it still continues today. There were other movements that came up, but I don’t think any of them had the impact of chassidus.
Another thing within the last 3,000 years is the writing down of Torah she’baal peh. That was a huge change. More recently (after WW2) is the rise of the kollel movement, another thing which had never existed before.
We’ve had many changes to our values, but most of the core has remained steady.October 26, 2022 9:46 am at 9:46 am #2132627lakewhutParticipant
Usually, abuse is learned behavior from someone a person trusts e.g. family member, rebbi but they know it’s wrong and such a thing is unhealthy to the development of a person. Anxiety develops as a result and can affect many different aspects of a person’s life.October 26, 2022 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2132646
My comment has nothing to do with YU or other institutional issues. It’s an general comment. Every Jew, even an unaffiliated Jew who isn’t observant has a chelek in the Torah. The Torah does not belong to any specific “world”. But I do think that the Haskalah was a major traumatizing even which caused european Jewry to divide people into camps, such as those in the “Torah world” and those outside of it. However there has never been a “Torah world” and there never will be. The Torah is Morasha to all of Kehilas Yaakov. What I am saying is first grade level stuff. Not a chiddushOctober 26, 2022 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2132649
Avirah – there is no way you have read up on this and walked away with that unless you read one lone article in an archive or heard someone tell you that they once read something somewhere. It’s not a mystery, a puzzle, difficult to trace or understand or undocumented. I don’t even know where to start an answer when your baseline is so off. Especially regarding your above posts. Please, either stop responding to things you don’t know about without stating you don’t know, or do your research.
You can go to jewishcommunitywatch and read some narrative essays and poems written by survivors that will give you more clarity than you want. Or try listening to some legitimate speakers. You will have nightmares, and it may be more information than you are open to, but then the other choice is to stay away from commenting on the subject as if you are knowledgeable. Your disinformation is more damaging than your silence.October 26, 2022 10:55 am at 10:55 am #2132653
lakewhut – yes, anxiety for sure. The trust issue is highly destructive long term as well and the skewed view of touch, relationships, role of authority, destroyed sense of self worth and the overall lack of safety. There is also the compounded and even more traumatic results of not being believed by the people you go to for help. This has been documentated by some as the more destructive component of the whole tragedy. Many who received awful abuse but received support and validation survived where others didn’t. I have seen this to be true among those I know personally as well.October 26, 2022 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2132669
“especially in non-violent circumstances”
hey, curious to know how inappropriate touching of a child without consent is non violent?
rhetorical, just answer it in your own headOctober 26, 2022 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2132695Amil ZolaParticipant
Avira, the compounding of many factors makes this traumatic. The loss of physical agency, the betrayal of trust by one who is held in esteem by the community (i.e. rabbi/teacher). The threats not to disclose to others, betrayal by parents or community when reported and not believed. Then there is the physical impact of rape on a small person by a large person. All of this can skew a persons future relationships and can continue onto marriage resulting in inability to maintain a healthy sexual and emotional relationship with a spouse. Add up all the trust issues I mentioned above and it’s not a pretty picture. Your response to this appears to me to be rather simplistic. Syag this is one area that you and I will continue to agree on time after time.October 26, 2022 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2132707
Syag, you’re referring to the “what,” and I’m referring to the “why.”
I’ve seen several accounts from survivors; they address what happened to them and the pain they went through as a result. But they never explain what about their experiences causes their pain, nor do they need to; it’s just a reality. My point is that it’s not a reality that we would know about without being told it.
Ask any elderly person what the big deal is if a kid gets touched; most don’t understand it at all.October 26, 2022 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2132731
“It’s not a pasuk in chumash.”
Wait, what?October 26, 2022 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2132732
“A baal teshuvah, whose father doesn’t want him to become frum?”
A baal teshuva should acquire a rav for himself and in that way learn a mesorah.October 26, 2022 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #2132733
“from what I’ve read, there isn’t a clear understanding that bridges the gap between an abusive incident(or several) and the deep, hellish trauma that follows it, especially in non-violent circumstances.”
I’m guessing you’ve not read any accounts from victims themselves – many are quite articulate. And behavior can be violent even if it doesn’t leave a black eye.October 26, 2022 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #2132736akupermaParticipant
There different is a global community of frum Jews, perhaps most broadly defined as including all halachic Jews who are Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kashrus – which is probably broader than any member would probably acknowledge.October 26, 2022 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #2132737
I’ve seen several accounts from survivors; they address what happened to them and the pain they went through as a result. But they never explain what about their experiences causes their pain, nor do they need to; it’s just a reality.
Wow! The above post makes it crystal clear that you are not capable of saying “I don’t know”
What a sham of a post. What ignorance on a topic. Just bow out buddy, just stop. Please.October 26, 2022 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #2132751
Ask any elderly person what the big deal is if a kid gets touched; most don’t understand it at all.
this is another bogus lie. Many elderly (whatever that means) will feign ignorance if you are referring to events that involved their peers, institutions or communities.
Many “elderly” will tell you that they just were ignorant of the warning signs and couldn’t believe the truth, especially because the victims were too petrified to spell it out in full.
Many other elderly who were actively involved in doing the sweeping were in panic mode hoping it would go away.
I have yet to hear anyone in real life say something so ignorant.
I will say though, that it 10-20 years, the 2 or 3 posters here who have said such moronic things will be elderly and may still be saying it.October 27, 2022 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2133132
What does all this have to do with my OP?October 27, 2022 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2133158ubiquitinParticipant
“What does all this have to do with my OP?”
You made refrence to the “Torah velt” that it belongs to all
LF and dovid both said similarly that t there is a Torah world with same set of values for “3000 years”
1 then made reference to covering up for abuse
Avira defended the Troah world by saying that it was not known how bad abuse was, and in the course of that mentioned even today it isn’t well understood
That led to severa,l in particular Syag, to call out Avira for his nonsense.
and that is how we got hereOctober 27, 2022 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2133184
You just gave me a an “8 minute Daf” of this whole thread. Shkoyach.October 28, 2022 9:37 am at 9:37 am #2133247ubiquitinParticipant
You are most welcome
Of course 8 minutes is much to long for a daf yomi shiur. If ou listen double speed you can get it down to a 4 minute dafOctober 28, 2022 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2133305DaMosheParticipant
Ubiquitin, I’ll be sure to tell R’ Eli that you think 8 minutes is too long. I know him very well, so I can definitely get him the message!October 28, 2022 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #2133313Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
“Torah world” always knew about dangers in the world, including child abuse. For example, Gemora at the end of Ketubot says that when a husband is deceased, the child should be raised by the mother rather than husband’s brothers. Why? Because brothers will inherit from their brother in case the child dies and gemora refers to a case where this happened. Not necessarily killed, just neglected – at the times when child mortality was high.October 28, 2022 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2133360
My point is that there is a Jewish world. Not a Torah world. It’s not an elite club among Yidden. Everyone has a chelek. There’s no us vs them. Tangentially, the Israeli Chariedi parties are making a mockery of Yiddishkeit.
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