touching one's nieces

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  • #605695

    I would like to know if there is an issur to touch/hold one’s niece if she is over three years old.

    Somebody quoted this to me in the name of the mishna berura. washe correct?

    #911335
    farrocks
    Member

    The same issur applies to ones niece that applies to any girl. Halacha makes no distinction between a niece and a neighbor.

    #911336
    kfb
    Participant

    I’m not sure what the halacha is regarding nieces, but you can definitely touch them until they’re 12.

    #911337
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    yes

    the same applies to an aunt

    #911338
    shlishi
    Member

    kfb: You’re allowed to touch 11 year old girls?!? Absolutely not.

    #911339

    The question was Does the mishne berura say that you may not touch your niece?

    That the halacha is the same for any girl, related or not, may be true. Though the identical halacha may be that it is muttar. So does the MB say its Assur?

    Siman 21 in EH discusses various things not to do with arayos, but niece or neighbors daughter are not arayos.

    FYI if you touch your niece or any other girl, you may end up in jail, but that is a different discussion

    #911340

    Aunt is an erva. Neice is not. Hence, they probably are not the same.

    yes

    the same applies to an aunt

    #911341
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Aunt is an erva. Neice is not. Hence, they probably are not the same.

    I hear

    #911342

    Source? (other than us law and international creep laws)

    kfb: You're allowed to touch 11 year old girls?!? Absolutely not.

    #911343
    Sam2
    Participant

    You’re allowed to touch her past 3. There is no D’rabannan of N’giyah by a P’nuyah (unlike Yichud; Yichud with her must stop at 3 according to almost everyone). Therefore, you can touch her until she is a Niddah. Since some girls can reach puberty as young as 9, it’s probably best to stop touching at 8. (Yes, there is no Derech Chibah for a 9- or 10-year-old girl even if she is a Niddah; still, we usually avoid non-Chibah contact whenever possible even though it may technically be Muttar.)

    #911344
    HaKatan
    Participant

    The Rambam (IIRC) says something like it’s very foolish and playing with fire (i.e. strongly recommended against this), though it seems like it is technically muttar, as Sam2 mentioned (assuming hirhurim, etc. are not an issue).

    #911345
    WIY
    Member

    Halachafortoday says

    “2) The only permissible relatives for a person to hug and kiss are a mother/father, son/daughter, grandson/granddaughter according to some Poskim and a sister below the age of 3 (or 7 according to the Chazon Ish). (See Aruch Hashulchan Even HaEzer Siman 21:10)

    All other relatives (Uncles/Aunts, Sisters in law/brothers in law, cousins etc.) may not be touched, kissed or hugged, and all the Halachos of other females apply to them.”

    #911346
    Whiteberry
    Member

    The original question stated this was said in the name of the mishna berurah and asked “was he correct”. I’m sure the question isn’t “is the MB correct”, rather did this person correctly quote the mishna berurah.

    To rephrase the OPs question, is there a MB that states, as asserted by Reb Somebody Shlita, that it is assur to touch ones niece once she is older than 3? If someone is familiar with this MB can they let us know where it may be seen inside?

    #911347
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    wouldnt this be in Even HaEzer, and isnt the Mishneh Brurah only on Orach Chaim?

    #911348
    Chortkov
    Participant

    What is the Halacha about one’s sister? I never heard of any issur but somebody very choshuv told me that it is a big chiddush that one can LISTEN TO HIS SISTER SINGING and it is not poshut at all.

    I know that Hilchos Yichud with a sister is an in-between stage (temporary, not permanently), but is Negia muttar?

    #911349
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Touching a sister is not an issue, although kissing is.

    #911350
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    If you’re a women there’s no issue.

    #911351
    Bobchka
    Participant

    1. WIY

    Member

    Halachafortoday says

    “2) The only permissible relatives for a person to hug and kiss are a mother/father, son/daughter, grandson/granddaughter according to some Poskim and a sister below the age of 3 (or 7 according to the Chazon Ish). (See Aruch Hashulchan Even HaEzer Siman 21:10)

    All other relatives (Uncles/Aunts, Sisters in law/brothers in law, cousins etc.) may not be touched, kissed or hugged, and all the Halachos of other females apply to them.”

    Seems to me the quoted halacha above talks about hugging and kissing not about touching. I know that a very chosuva rav in the midwest that says touching is technicelly permissable on a blood related niece and singing is not assur at all as it is a chumra based on touching

    #911352
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “2) The only permissible relatives for a person to hug and kiss are a mother/father, son/daughter, grandson/granddaughter according to some Poskim and a sister below the age of 3 (or 7 according to the Chazon Ish). (See Aruch Hashulchan Even HaEzer Siman 21:10)

    Oh well, I guess my wife is out.

    As an aside, why is it permissible to touch a grandson/daughter but not a grandfather/mother? And how is someone to touch their grandchildren without having them touch you back?

    The Wolf

    #911353
    shmu89
    Member

    the Mishna Berura discusses it by what’s considered erva to say shema in front of, in hilchos kriyas shema. Not sure of the exact sif but it shouldn’t be too hard to find.

    #911354
    PbP
    Member

    A niece is an ervoh like any other girl. I would like to know why anyone above thinks otherwise.

    #911355
    avhaben
    Participant

    A neice is no different than any other strange girl is concerned, as far as the impermissibility to touch her.

    #911356
    avhaben
    Participant

    A neice is no different than any other strange girl is concerned, as far as the impermissibility to touch her.

    #911357
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A niece is an ervoh like any other girl

    The term “ervah” is usually used to refer to a potential partner who is forbidden to you by virtue of being already married, a relative, or a relative of a previous or current spouse. In that sense, a niece is NOT an ervah*, nor is “any other girl.”

    The Wolf

    * Yes, technically, if a Niddah, she is an ervah, but when discussing potentially permitted relationships, we don’t use the term ervah in that sense.

    #911358
    dhl144
    Member

    My nieces are so cute!! I can’t stop kissing them and hugging them!! I don’t know how I am going to stop when they turn three!! they are sooooo cute!!!!!!!!

    #911359
    PbP
    Member

    The important thing is to know and observe that which is in shulcon oruch.

    #911360

    the only source we have for this presented for this was the Aruch hashulchan which was contested(due to the assertion(I dont have an aruch hashulchan in front of me) that it doesnt say you cant touch). The mishene berura in OC is probably discussing looking at an undressed girl.

    So, what is the source for your statement? She may be no different, but why does that make them both forbidden. Maybe they are both permitted?

    A neice is no different than any other strange girl is concerned, as far as the impermissibility to touch her.

    #911361
    mrs. Katz
    Member

    I was just wondering, in another thread you gave us all the gory details of how you may fit a man shoes, so usrely you’re problem is touching your uncles, not your nieces.

    #911362
    avhaben
    Participant

    Can one touch one’s best friend’s sister?

    The Torah doesn’t differntiate between a best friend’s sister and a niece.

    #911363
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Can one touch one’s best friend’s sister?

    Well, if my best friend’s sister is my wife*…

    The Wolf

    *No, not my case, but certainly there must be such cases.

    #911364
    cherrybim
    Participant

    To all of you tzadikim above; the same issur also applies to an adopted daughter, even if you raised her from birth. I challenge you to find a Rav or Posek who will admonish a father for hugging or kissing his adopted daughter.

    I know of quite a few frum men who are affectionate with their neices.

    #911365
    farrocks
    Member

    That doesn’t make doing an aveira okay.

    And from a halachic standpoint, a neice is more similar to a neighbor and a second cousin once removed than to an adopted daughter.

    #911366

    cherrybim: You say you “know of quite a few frum men who are affectionate with their neices.” Well maybe they are married to them. You are allowed to marry your niece, you know!!

    Halacha does not differentiate between a niece and any other girl.

    The quoted M.B. is in hilchos krias shema. There is a famous machlokes between the M.B. and the Chazon Ish at what each a girl is considered “ervah”. The M.B. held at three years old, while the Chazon Ish extended the age to about 6 or 7. He is a bit vague on the exact age. It’s whenever she starts looking too “girlish”.

    The poskim say that this machlokes applies to hilchos krias shema and to hilchos negiah as well.

    This is not a well known halacha and many are nichshol in it. I heard this from a huge posek, who told me that this is halacha, not chumra.

    Also, there is a halacha that says it is disgusting and ASSUR to hug and kiss your sister. The Shulchan Aruch says the word Assur. It is not, however, the same issur as a niece or another girl.

    The poskim say that any affectionate touching falls into that issur. An affectionate pat on the back from a brother to a sister also falls into that category.

    This is also halacha, not chumra.

    If you question this halacha, you might want to call a reliable Rov. These are very serious issurim and should not be paskened from a blog!

    #911367

    I heard that it was ok since you view her as a daughter etc.(I believe it was quoted from Rav Moshe, but I have not seen this inside.)

    Has anyone ever SEEN this shaalah discussed?

    I challenge you to find a Rav or Posek who will admonish a father for hugging or kissing his adopted daughter.

    #911368
    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s not always an aveira to hug or kiss a niece.

    #911369
    Whiteberry
    Member

    “the Mishna Berura discusses it by what’s considered erva to say shema in front of, in hilchos kriyas shema.”

    The MB makes no mention of any hachos of negiah in hilchos krias shma, nor does he discuss ones niece.

    To the OP. Are you concerned about fitting your niece when she comes in for a pair of shoes?

    #911370
    farrocks
    Member

    It’s not always an aveira to hug or kiss a niece.

    If she’s two years old, it isn’t an aveira whether she is your niece or second cousin once removed (both have the same status to you.)

    #911372
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Also, if she is your wife.

    #911373
    funnybone
    Participant

    I discussed this question with my Rav; I won’t tell you what he said b/c I believe that people should discuss their questions with their Rav.

    #911374
    Sam2
    Participant

    I don’t check back here so often any more, but this thread has been disturbing me. The vast amounts of Halachic misinformation is scary.

    anonymouschochom: Wrong. The age at which a girl’s uncovered skin is considered an “Ervah” by D’varim Shebikdushah has absolutely nothing to do with an “Ervah” as in the singular form of “Arayos”, which is what is relevant to the touching discussion.

    RavHamachshir: The Tzitz Eliezer in 6:39 Perek 22 or 23 discusses that precise case, if I recall correctly.

    #911375
    shlishi
    Member

    Sam2: Reading your two comments here, it seems you are under the impression that men may touch girls until they reach puberty even though they may not even look at the upper arms or legs of the same girl over age 3 (per the Chofetz Chaim) or 6 (per the Chazon Ish).

    That would be counterintuitive, wouldn’t it.

    #911376
    syeshiva
    Member

    “None of you shall come near anyone of his own flesh to uncover nakedness: I am the Lord” (18:6),

    #911377

    Not really. You are not allowed to hold your moneybelt or shild while davening, but you are allowed to hold a moneybelt or child any other time.

    You are not allowed to daven while in a bathroom, but you are allowed to be in a bathroom while not davening.

    So, Maybe, you are not allowed to look at a little girl while davening, but are allowed to look or touch a girl(unless its creepy, cuz then you might scar her and you might end up in jail)while not davening

    Sam2: Reading your two comments here, it seems you are under the impression that men may touch girls until they reach puberty even though they may not even look at the upper arms or legs of the same girl over age 3 (per the Chofetz Chaim) or 6 (per the Chazon Ish).

    That would be counterintuitive, wouldn't it.

    #911378
    shlishi
    Member

    RavHamachshir: Your point would indicate that you believe it permissible for men to touch girls (anytime he isn’t davening). This is clearly incorrect. (Shomer Negiah.)

    #911379

    I think the discussion here is whether shomer negia applies to arayos (nida, another man’s wife, a relative you are not allowed to marry, such as sister in law etc) or to other woman/girls as well.

    BTW, what is your source for shomer negia by non arayos?

    RavHamachshir: Your point would indicate that you believe it permissible for men to touch girls (anytime he isn't davening). This is clearly incorrect. (Shomer Negiah.)

    #911380
    Whiteberry
    Member

    Whether it is halachicly permissible to touch your niece or not, I will leave to a posek. What I can say with certainty is that if my daughter was your niece and you touched her, I would break your arm.

    #911381
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    You would break your brother’s arm for touching his 3-year-old niece?

    #911382
    dhl144
    Member

    I just kissed and hug my niece good bye! 🙁 Do i really have to stop cold turkey as soon as she turns three??? 🙁 that’ll be hard Ii love my nieces!

    #911383
    shlishi
    Member

    RH: Why should it be different between an 8 year old and a 16 year old (who went to the mikva)? Are you suggesting that it is okay for anyone to touch the 16 year old girl?

    #911384
    Whiteberry
    Member

    42. In your case, I’d probably break both.

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