Tragedy has fallen on all of us

We must all have working smoke detectors in our homes. That being said, if that’s the message you get out of this horrific tragedy, you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!

No I did not miss the point. One should not rely on miracles , Getting a working smoke dectector and carbon monoxide detector is cheap and saves lives and you can help prevent another tragedy from occuring.

If you know of some poor people who cannot afford the $35 for a smoke detector/ carbon Monoxide detector, buy it for them as a gift

First Alert also makes an escape ladder for about $35 on Amazon if you have to escape from the second floor. Get one and give one to a Gemach!!!

That does sound like an excellent idea! We are blessed with so many ??”??? yet I don’t think there is a smoke detector one yet. If someone would start one, it would be a big ???? to these 7 beautiful ????? and for yourself…

SiDi™

Ah, Zehavasdad (*wince*). I’m pretty sure you meant “castigate”.

Edited. Thanks for pointing it out.

1: As has been pointed out, Hamodias editorial is NOT Daas Torah.

2: Since you dont know “the point”, please do not accuse others of missing it. For some it just might be get a smoke alarm in your house. I’ll make my own cheshbon hanefesh, you make yours. Please dont tell me or anyone else that the point was missed. It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

“Yes one should realize hashem is in charge, however one is forbidden from standing in the middle of the BQE and saying hashem is in charge and will protect me from harm.”

You realize that this is an inane comparison.

No sane person would consider living in a house without enough smoke detectors the same as standing in the middle of a highway. It is not even similar to driving in a car without wearing a seatbelt.

A more apt comparison would be sitting in a backseat with out a seatbelt and then being hit by a drunk driver.

While it is a good idea and also something one should also use this as a reminder about smoke detectors, it is surely not the main message being presented to us.

And one does not have to be Da’as Torah to undesstand that, they just have to have a little Da’as and some basic emunah to see it.

I suspect that those who are insistent that the message is about smoke detectors are likely saying, we have a smoke detector, there is no message for us.

I don’t think there is anyone who does not think that there is a message that each person can take from this message.

When someone starts a discussion (on the CR, a “thread”) about a tragic fire and how we should relate to it in terms of ruchniyus, and someone’s first or only reaction is about smoke detectors and hot plates, that person (in this case a couple of posters) can’t help but come across as minimizing the mussar aspect of it.

I also don’t think one needs to know “the” point to see that someone else has missed it. We all need to look at our own shortcomings (not everyone else’s) and try to improve. If someone fails to to do this, he or she has indeed missed the point.

And yes, we should all have working smoke detectors and exercise extreme caution with fire.

I don’t quite comprehend how a Gemach for smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder would operate? because a Gemach is usually for a short term usage, whereas one needs to have these smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder permanently on hand [ceiling] at home.

Syag, I guess you didn’t notice the second post in this thread (and more on a different thread, as I recall).

Sam, there’s mussar to be learned from anything if you look for it, but particularly when such a tragedy occurs, it’s a “potch” from above.

I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.

DY -“I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.”

You’re right, but you’re wrong. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out something that almost e/o does wrong. There are at least 7 articles about accidents & safety on YWN front page. So there is a big problem in the Frum community, whether some are in denial or not!

(I posted this before) Unfortunately, that isn’t the way to learn (about health & safety). I’ve given CPR courses and done CPR on pts.

From the Journal of Advanced Nursing –

“The findings of the research reflect similar results to previous research undertaken and discussed in the literature review, suggesting that retention of skills and knowledge quickly deteriorates if not used or updated regularly. Therefore this research supports the importance of CPR refresher courses on a regular basis.”

So if nurses have trouble with retention, for sure laymen will!

So you’re right – “each one of us should be ????? ??????”. One of those ????? is V’nishmarten Meod etc.

I know what you are saying Syag and i agree this person is being treated badly and being marginalized not something you want to see at a time like this.

DY: I’m always of two minds on this. On the one hand, there’s the Pashut Rambam in Hilchos Taaniyos, which should never be ignored.

On the other hand, if something happens which was Bidei Adam, it’s impossible to tell the line between what was actual “Yisurim” from HKBH and what was just a natural consequence of human choice. That’s my problem here.

Sam, I’ll all for smoke detectors; I have them myself, plus other safety measures, and I think everyone should have. But calling this b’ydei adam is wrong, on a couple of levels.

Is it such a terrible mussur to remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help

I think this is the proper approach (although I wouldn’t call it mussar).

My issue here is, that there’s also a genuine, ruchniyusdik’e mussar to be taken from a tragedy such as this, and I don’t think the correct and practical message of fire safety should drown out the equally correct, though less tangible, message of cheshbon hanefesh.

Sorry, you would have to show that it is.

Tell me something, Sam, was your takeaway from the tragedy of the three kedoshim in Eretz Yisroel about hitchhiking? Do you consider that too to be b’ydei adam?

DY: Counterintuitively, when an Arab kills Jews I consider that Bidei Shamayim. There are plenty of them trying to kill plenty of us every day. Most of them get stopped, either by the IDF’s Hishtadlus or HKBH’s direct unseen intervention or, usually, a combination of the two. In those rare times when HKBH lets something through, it means it shows us something. This case, though, I’m not sure why it isn’t more than someone using a hot plate with faulty wiring and not having smoke detectors.

ZD -“remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help. ie check your batteries on a working smoke dector and …”

Are we really helping ourselves? E/O is offering Fire Safety courses. If it’s not done on a personal level, it’s only for show! Why do we – when something like this happens, put on a show? We should make real change, not just superficial change.

Sam, you neglected to mention hitchhiking. Most people don’t hitchhike. In fact, I think an important lesson to learn from that tragedy is not to hitchhike, but it wasn’t, rightfully, the focus. Plenty of people unfortunately don’t have smoke detectors, and use hot plates. I’m sure they were unaware that the wiring was faulty (if it indeed was). Fire safety is an important lesson to take from this tragedy, but not at the expense of cheshbon hanefesh.

Sam, your chilluk is painful to read.

If you try hard enough, you can rationalize any tzarah and throw the gemara and Rambam out.