Trump and the embassy

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  • This topic contains 32 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  DovidBT 2 years ago.
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  • #1288836

    adocs
    Participant

    Where are all the rabid pro-trump people here? Nu? Trump is the best thing! He’ll be great for Israel! He’ll finally move the embassy!

    Hello? Anybody? Anybody?

    Signed
    Not a Hillary/Obama supporter

    #1288845

    Joseph
    Participant

    He said he’ll still move it but is only delaying the timing of the move.

    What’s the big deal? Even if it stays in Tel Aviv, who cares.

    #1288872

    Chaver
    Participant

    What is the difference where the embassy is? Why does anybody care what the world thinks about Yerushalayim? Any Jew can go live there without any difficulty.

    #1288863

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Is it getting much covfefe from the press?

    #1288883

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “He said he’ll still move it but is only delaying the timing of the move”

    ah, but he also said hed move it “on day one”

    #1288970

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Does Israel have any control over the location of the embassies?

    For that matter, how that does work in general? If France decided to move their U.S. embassy to New Orleans, could they do that? Or does the U.S. decide on the location?

    #1288976

    Joseph
    Participant

    Dovid, the two countries need to agree on a location. If they can’t agree, then there won’t be any embassy.

    #1288978

    akuperma
    Participant

    If France were to move its embassy to New Orleans (or more realistically, if israel were to move its embassy to Brooklyn), the United States would be insulted. The only option would be to break diplomatic relations. That means client states, such as Israel, which need the superpower’s help more than the reverse, are stuck when the patron chooses to insult them. Given the Tel Aviv is the economic, cultural and political center of Israel, having an embassy in Jerusalem is not all that important. Nothing prevent the current ambassador from living in Jerusalem, and one can argue that Jerusalem and Tel Aviv are no further apart than, say Far Rockaway or the southern tip of Staten Island from mid-town Manhattan. The bottom line though, is that by not recognizing Israeli ownership of territory gained in the 1947-49. the US is officially agreeing with those question the legality of the medinah’s existence under international law.

    #1289236

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    I heard a theory from a respected lawyer that Netanyahu told Trump to wait on the embassy move. It seems to make a lot of sense. Another theory is that Trump is waiting to use it as a bargaining chip over Abbas to force direct negotiations with Israel without preconditions.

    #1289296

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Actually,
    A country can’t move its embassy without the permission of the host country. The embassy and its grounds function as quasi-sovereign territory of the host country. Over the years we have seen examples of asylum seekers spending years living in an embassy compound unmolested by the host country. Each existing embassy in Washington DC and to the UN in NYC were approved by the US government before the property was purchased and the foreign flag hoisted. The embassy property often has foreign military with arms, something a host country would not allow to be placed willy nilly around the country. This is why countries establish consulates outside capital cities. The Consul is generally a citizen of the host country with limited Diplomatic Authority granted by the foreign country to serve visiting nationals and stimulate business and cultural/travel exchanges.

    #1289302

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, I effectively said the same thing regarding the embassy location requiring agreement by the host country. Regarding consulates, consuls are by and large diplomatic officers from the foreign country with diplomatic immunity in the host country. What you are referring to are “honorary consuls”, which fits the description you gave.

    #1289319

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Sorry Joseph…
    I don’t agree with you about Consuls (and I was not talking about ‘Honorary’ ones). For many years my Israeli cousin was the Consul for a Central American country. While he was still active in business a room in his Tel Aviv offices functioned as the Consulate. After his retirement, there was a plaque on his Herzylia Pituach home stating Consulado de XXXXXX. He issued travel Visas for Israelis traveling to that country and promoted tourism and business.

    In the 1980s I was the Consul General for a small European country in one Connecticut city where I had both a factory with many of their citizens as employees and several retail establishments.
    There are career diplomats below the rank of Ambassador with the title of Consul representing some countries, but small countries find it far more cost effective to appoint citizens of the country they wish to be represented in to handle these part time duties.
    My cousin in Israel loved the position which he held for more than 30 years because he and his wife got diplomatic passports, ‘CC’ plates for their cars and the ability to purchase most things without import duty or VAT.

    #1289346

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, then how else would you define a “Honorary Consul”?

    Also, why did they need a consulate in Tel Aviv, considering that’s where the embassies themselves are located. (A bit like having a consulate in D.C.)

    #1289368

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    There are some small countries who do not maintain embassies in all countries with which they have diplomatic relations. It is just too expensive Sometimes they appoint an ambassador to serve several countries and he is based ion a physical embassy in one of them. He occasionally travels to the others as needed, but a consulate handles every day needs. When my cousin was the Consul for the Central American country they did not maintain an embassy in Israel. When they finally established one it is in an office in Herzylia Pituach and is not staffed by a resident ambassador.

    #1289364

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “In the 1980s I was the Consul General for a small European country in one Connecticut city…”

    Did you get to wear a fancy uniform, with epaulettes and ribbons, and a big hat with feathers?

    #1289394

    Joseph
    Participant

    Or get a State Department Diplomatic license plate?

    #1289440

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    DovidBT……….
    No fancy uniform.
    I rec’d bilingual business cards
    I was invited to meet their President when he came to NYC for the opening session of the UN one year.
    When Mrs. CTL and I flew to Europe on their National Airline we were given First Class tickets and all we paid were the US airport taxes/fees. We traveled on our US passports, but were met at the gate by a member of the foreign ministry and bypassed customs and immigration control lines.

    #1289442

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    No special license plates.
    BTW…The US State Department does not issue Diplomatic license plates in the assorted states. You register your car and get a plate issued by the Motor Vehicle Dept in your own state. No special designation. No ability to be a scofflaw and not pay parking tickets.
    No tax breaks, etc.
    Being the Consular representative cost me out of pocket money. I operated out of my office and a secretary on my staff handled calls and took messages. I had open office hours one afternoon each week from 2-4 when I assisted with travel visas, those nationals who had stayed long and needed to renew passports, etc. All I did was collect the documents and send them on to the embassy in Washington for processing via a weekly courier.
    There was a large immigrant community from this country and I was the ‘polished’ local face of authority. Appearing at cultural events, speaking at Chamber of Commerce and Business Industry association meetings trying to facilitate trade. I was not responsible for stimulating the leisure tourist trade, that was handled by regional sales reps from the national airline.

    #1289493

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, what was your aim/goal in being that representative?

    #1289568

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I owned a garment factory in that city in addition to a departments store. About 25% of my employees in the factory and 15% of my customers were immigrants from that country. Most were not yet US citizens. I was approached by some prominent members of the community and told that they had lobbied their embassy in Washington for a Consul in the city. They put forward my name, an attorney born in the a good working relationship with the immigrant community who could read, write and speak the language.
    This was just good citizenship by providing service to that community and at the same time helping with applications for relatives to come to the US and many became employed in my factory. This was a time when most Americans were no longer interested in the needle trades.
    It is now 30 years since I stopped doing business in that city and gave up the Consul’s position. I made many business and political connections that have been useful over the years. Most satisfying was helping more than 400 immigrants become citizens and 250 potential immigrants to come legally to the US with Visas I helped facilitate.

    #1290110

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I have a consulate story:
    When I was in the Mirrer Yeshiva, I needed my UK passport to be renewed. The UK has two consulates in Yerushalayim, one in Talpiyot to serve ‘West Jerusalem’ and one in Sheikh Jarrah to serve ‘East Jerusalem’. Of course the nearer one for me was Sheikh Jarrah. It was in 1997, so generally safe to go into the arab part of Yerushalayim.
    I took a taxi from Shmuel Hanavi where it would be a 10 minute ride. The driver was shocked that this haredi wanted to go to Sheikh Jarrah, but laughed when I told him why. The UK has to maintain two consulates in Yerushalayim because of the status they hold the city to be. But the point of it is not so that Jews can go to the ‘arab’ consulate if it happens to be more convenient for them. I imagined that the embassy staff would be British and greet me with tea and scones. But, the staff there were arab and not impressed with my appearance, and clearly wanted me out of there quickly. Luckily, they sent my renewed passport out to me by post.

    Does the US have two consulates in Jerusalem?

    #1290321

    huju
    Participant

    Who cares where the US embassy is? Well, when Obama was president, the Obama-haters cared and wanted it in Jerusalem. Now that Trump is president, the Obama-haters seem not to care.

    #1416456

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are reports coming in tonight from multiple news agencies that the President had a meeting at the White on Monday and said he wants to move the embassy to Jerusalem as well as declare that it is the policy of the United States to recognize Jerusalem as the “indivisible capital of Israel.” According to the reports this may be announced next week.

    #1418725

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    So it looks increasingly likely that Trump will take this step, and recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in the next 24 hours or so, although it seems as if he will not move the embassy there. I for one hope that he can be dissuaded from carrying this out, as frankly the only people who will welcome this move will be certain sections of the Israeli right. But as a nascent Jerusalemite, I have no wish for an unnecessary return to the increased dangers of recent years. I’m writing this literally on the border between East and West, and am relatively safe standing here. I have no interest in being needlessly endangered over a purely symbolic move. I’d be astonished if anybody considered this good news for the Jewish inhabitants of Yerusholayim. Best case scenario, there’s significant unrest, worst case, another Intifada.

    #1418745

    Joseph
    Participant

    NE: Agreed.

    #1419252

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If this nitwit makes the announcement to “deliver” on a campaign promise and we have dead or injured government employees or citizens in foreign capitals, their blood will be on Trump’s hands. Recall when another symbolic effort by an Israeli politician to visit har habayis set off rioting which resulted in deaths and injuries which he glibly dismissed as the collateral damage from fulfilling a political imperative.

    #1419303

    Joseph
    Participant

    GHD: You want to give terrorists a veto over US policy?

    #1419347

    DovidBT
    Participant

    If the driving force to make the change comes from the Israeli government, and the U.S. merely supports the change, then any negative effects can be blamed on Israeli policy.

    #1419457

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Aren’t there embassies in NYC? Does anyone claim that those countries are “denying” that Washington DC is the capital of the US?

    Seems like a waste of money to me. I get that people want to do it as kind of a dig at the Palestinians, which I have no problem with, but is it really worth it?

    #1419538

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are no embassies in New York. Those are only consulates. All the embassies are in Washington.

    #1420824

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    To take into account the Palestinian reaction to this move is not pandering to terrorism, it’s simply recognising the realities of the situation. The fact is this will probably lead to further deaths. Whilst the responsibility for the violence always lies with the perpetrators, it doesn’t make it amy less foolhardy for the politicians to push for a move that changes very little in material terms, but will lead to unrest. If it were a practical change that’d be one thing, but apart from one new building, nothing will have changed on the ground, except it will be significantly less safe to be a Jew in this city.

    Or to put it another way, I couldn’t care less what the State of Israel considers as its capital, nor whether the United States agrees. It makes no difference to my life. Increased terrorism does, so I am proudly, and selfishly, decrying this pointless exercise.

    #1420827

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Neville
    @joseph

    There are 8 countries who have designated their Missions to the United Nations in NYC to also serve as their Embassy to the USA.

    This is not an unusual situation, as some countries will designate an Ambassador to serve as representative to more than one country. Israel, for example maintains only 69 embassies while having diplomatic recognition from more than 150 countries. In Latin America and the Caribbean the Israeli Ambassador may serve multiple countries from one embassy and have use of a consular or other office when visiting them

    #1420843

    Joseph
    Participant

    Well said, NE.

    #1420847

    DovidBT
    Participant

    The Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 is a public law of the United States passed by the 104th Congress on October 23, 1995. It was passed for the purposes of initiating and funding the relocation of the Embassy of the United States in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, … The act also called for Jerusalem to remain an undivided city and for it to be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel. … Since passage, the law has never been implemented, because of opposition from Presidents Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump, who view it as a Congressional infringement on the executive branch’s constitutional authority over foreign policy …

    From Wikipedia article “Jerusalem Embassy Act”.

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