August 3, 2016 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1190758
I did not state that anything would automatically show up in the “brain” I did state that it would have to show up in the wiring somehow.
It could be in the blood, it could be in the brain it could be in the heart. It must be somewhere.
Lets take a car from example if the car has a mechanical problem it automatically must be somewhere in the wiring, the mechanic may not be able to find it, however it must be there or it would not have an outward manifestation.
The same applies to human being’s the “outward” manifestation must have a root cause in the inner “wiring” of the person.
This by the way is in no way contradictory to the Torah, rather it’s fundamental part of understanding the Torah.
We believe that man is combined between the “body” and the “soul” the body presents “tests” challenges if you will our soul is what gives us the ability to over come these challenges.
Can a male have female characteristics?
Have you ever learnt the inyan of Yosef Hatzaddik and Dinah, why the Torah emphasizes that Yosef was “mesalsel bsaroh” and Dinah was a Yetzonus?
We do not deny that not everyone fit’s a cookie cutter box.
What believing Jew does state is that if G-d created someone a man that person is a man.
If G-d created that person a woman then that person is a woman.
However let’s be clear over the current “Debate”.
Anyone who denies man made global warming,
Questions whether or not man came from monkeys tens of thousands of years ago is questioning observable, provable scientific facts.
However if one say’s that a person born as a man with the physical attributes of a man, the hormonal structures of a man, and in some famous cases one who was actually married and had the ability to produce children, is a man and not a female they are backwards.August 3, 2016 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1190759
“I did not state that anything would automatically show up in the “brain” I did state that it would have to show up in the wiring somehow.
It could be in the blood, it could be in the brain it could be in the heart. It must be somewhere.”
Very convincing argument, thank you very much for the evidence-based scientific explanation…August 4, 2016 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1190760
Are you even attempting to understand what was written?
I was not offering a scientific explanation of anything in that line, I was simply clarifying my own writing.August 4, 2016 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1190761
You didn’t clarify anything at all. You just said some vague made-up nonsense.August 4, 2016 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1190762🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
jf – I think he was answering me. He used the term “wiring” which, in my experience, has always referred to the brain (different terms are used for other systems)and he was clarifying to me that he did not mean it in that way.
I have no interest in this back and forth, I find studies boring and only read them when needed so can I ask you an on topic but personal-feeling, as opposed to research-based-facts question?
Say you have a study, such as the ones you quote, or studies about children with downs syndrome or studies about hyperactivity – any study with that same level of definitive fact studies. Let’s say you have read that the studies are very firm on specific traits, but that you have worked with these individuals by the hundreds and don’t really see the same pattern or don’t see it as more than a 75%. I’m curious how you, as an individual, approaches that reality. Again, this isn’t to bring out my earlier point, it is because I am genuinely curious to know how you would approach it.August 4, 2016 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1190763
It’s hard to say because I don’t work with patients or clients…I suppose I would read the scholarship and try to figure out if there was something different about the population I was seeing, some distinct trait that they had or the location where I served them or something, that would explain why their experiences were so different from the overall trend. Maybe I would speak to my colleagues about it also and ask what their experiences were.August 4, 2016 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1190764🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I’m glad to hear you say that because life experiences usually prove that in regard to behavior sciences there is no such thing as definitive. From your posting it sounded to me like you would feel the need to ignore your impressions for the sake of the “written word”. I have seen psychologists do this and it drives me nuts. They will diagnose certain children with autism or other things based on the checklists even when life evidence gives them pause.
So can they negate the checklist? No, but they can use the discrepancies to look further into what is before them and possibly start storing up their own data base of exceptions. Those exceptions are also people.August 4, 2016 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1190765
Yes, the exceptions are people and I would not try to force any individual person to fit the overall trend. But neither would I deny that the overall trend exists.August 9, 2016 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1190766
The fact that we live in such a confused country is sign that we need Trump.
We have women who think they’re men and men who think they’re women.
We have a white woman, Rachel Dolezal, who thinks she’s black.
We have a US Senator Pocahontas who made up stories about her “paw paw” having high cheek bones in order to attain affirmative action to advance a hypocritical limousine liberal career. Senator Pocahontas whines about Wall Street and meanwhile she collects $400,000 from teaching a Harvard class!August 9, 2016 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1190767
So your solution to the “problem” you identify is to elect an liberal authoritarian who thinks he is a republican?August 9, 2016 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1190768
dovrosenbaum, you are straw manning again…Warren didn’t “make up stories” and certainly did not take advantage of affirmative action.
I think Democrats and Republicans can all agree that Rachel Dolezal is crazy.
There are actual physical differences in the brains of transgender people that prove they’re not just dressing differently because they feel like it.
Anyway, I’m not sure why any of the so-called “confusion” you describe would be a reason why “we need Trump”.August 9, 2016 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1190769MaidofCHParticipant
JFem, a few things:
Just because someone may identify with the opposite gender does not make him or her the opposite gender. Many of us possess qualities of the opposite gender. But if the outdoor plumbing and the chromosomes point the other way, sorry. An XY will never be an XX.
A transgender woman is not a woman. It is a mutilated man. And I am not sure the Torah allows that kind of practice.
Some of your threads strike me as highly distorted. What you’re essentially saying is this: “I want to do or be whatever I want, and everyone has to go along with it. Ergo, if I want to pretend to be the opposite gender, the world must accommodate me.”
Sorry, but that is not the Torah view. If we acknowledge a Supreme Being, we acknowledge His will.
editedAugust 9, 2016 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1190770👑RebYidd23Participant
The real problem is that Americans are forced to choose between two parties with complete sets of beliefs. People who are anti gay rights but pro government programs are not represented.August 9, 2016 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1190771
“But if the outdoor plumbing and the chromosomes point the other way, sorry. An XY will never be an XX.”
Ah but what if they dont match
What if are XY but look XX or XX and look XY?
what about XX or XY that got an operation so the apperance no longer matches their genotype (not that it is halkchicly allowed, but say they did it)
what about XO, XXY, XXX, XYY, all of these exist and some are easier to “label” than others. bottom line is it isnt as black and white as some think
what if from the what they are ambiguous and you just cant tell?August 9, 2016 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1190773hujuParticipant
Re RebYidd23’s comment “The real problem ….” Maybe the real problem is that we are forced to choose between two genders – the one we are born with, or the other one.
As for the two major American political parties having “complete sets of beliefs”, that mystifies me. Both parties have a hodge-podge of beliefs, some of which overlap with the other party. What’s disappeared in the last 30 years is the recognition that compromise is a necessary part of democracy in our republic.
And for those of you wondering why we have only 2 major parties: I think the political scientists figured that out more than 50 years ago. It is because we elect our legislatures by single-representative districts in winner-take-all elections held at regular intervals. If we want more parties, we have to change our federal and state constitutions to elect our legislatures the way France, Germany, Italy, Israel and lots of other countries do it. And if you think that is better, take a look at Italy or Israel, and you will have a good laugh.August 9, 2016 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1190774
MaidofCH, no, the Torah does not allow it, and I have never suggested that it does. However, this is not binding for goyim. And according to the Tzitz Eliezer, once the transition is complete, the man does indeed become a woman (even for a Jew!)
I wonder what you mean by this:
“Some of your threads strike me as highly distorted. What you’re essentially saying is this: ‘I want to do or be whatever I want, and everyone has to go along with it. Ergo, if I want to pretend to be the opposite gender, the world must accommodate me.'”
Because that’s not what I’m saying at all. (And for the record, it’s not “I”. *I* am a woman, born with female anatomy, married to a man, born with male anatomy.)
People who are gay and transgender are not asking the world for anything, except to acknowledge that they exist.
RebYidd23, it sounds like you are looking for the exact opposite of libertarianism. Interesting.August 9, 2016 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1190775
The Modern Orthodox love quoting the Tzitz Eliezer on this issue yet ignore the fact that he seems to be a daas yochid.
They find any liberal-sounding shita they like and they run with it.August 10, 2016 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1190776
People who are gay and transgender are not asking the world for anything, except to acknowledge that they exist.
Everyone knows they exist (we aren’t in Iran) they dot have to shove it down our face
I do get it though that seeing a “man” walk into a woman’s bathroom is rather strangeAugust 10, 2016 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1190777SparklyMember
coffee addict – i know someone well enough thats friends with some people in my family who is transgender so i know a lot about transgender. i highly disagree with their view point. i see nothing different about being a male or female or why someone would insist on being a male or female. there the same thing. not literally the same thing but they all get the same stuff, all treated the same way, etc… at lest they should be. i feel like the person is “making fun of girls” by becoming a girl. i want to tell him off for it but wont since many of them end up committing suicide so i will just ignore him for now and allow him to “live live like a girl” whatever that means. i see no difference. but moral is treat everyone with love even if you dont respect them because you dont want them committing suicide because of you. and unfortunately many people dont treat people they disagree with with enough respect making them go and do dumb stuff like commit suicide. “vahavta leraicha kamocha”. no matter if you agree with the persons opinion or not.August 10, 2016 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1190778
Men and Women are very different. Obviously there are physical diferences as well as genetic differences. However there are also psychological differences, personality differences and mental differences. Now granted some of those latter differences are learned but many are believed to be innate and many studies have demonstrated such (though it may not always be politically correct to say so)
I’m fairly cetain most of the right wing bend on this forum would agree with the above.
Now as I mentioned earlier there are times where the genetics and appearance (genotype and phenotype) dont match up. There are cases such as androgen insensitivity syndrome, gonadal dysgenesis where a person is genetically male or female but physically looks like the other. Sometimes on the outside looks like one but iside looks like another . Sometimes it is hard to tell (as in an andrgynous)
The above paragraph is all factual with no room for argument. As to how to label them, that is a secondary issue and one potentially fraught with controversy.
Now being that the appearance and genes dotn always match up, taking it a step further I dotn see why it is so far-fetched to say that the personality or psychology and genes/appearance dont always match up. Again what to “label” people who are genetically/physically male but psychologically female or vice versa is s separate issue (albeit closely linked). But I’m not sure why the rigth wing is so dismissive of the aove existingAugust 10, 2016 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1190779
dovrosenbaum: I am fully aware that he is a daas yochid. However, he’s a heavyweight posek. You can’t just disregard him.
coffee addict: “Everyone knows they exist (we aren’t in Iran) they dot have to shove it down our face”
Actually, that’s not true. If you say, as many people here have been saying, that a transgender woman is not a woman at all, but rather “a man in a dress,” you are essentially denying that transgender people exist. Because you’re saying that they’re not really transgender, they’re really whatever gender they always were, and they’re just confused. I don’t think that asking to be properly acknowledged and identified as who you are constitutes “shoving it down our face”.
Sparkly: If it makes no difference, why don’t you try being a boy for a few days and tell me how that works out for you.August 10, 2016 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1190780👑RebYidd23Participant
Either way it is not fair to mock people with physical and neurological disorders.August 10, 2016 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1190781
No one says just because they might be crazy they don’t exist,
Crazy people existAugust 11, 2016 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1190782
Father goes to Target with their 9 year old daughter.
Daughter need the bathroom.
Father takes daughter to the ladies room and then stands outside waiting for her to come out so he can continue on with his wife errands.
A person with obviously male features, including the build of a man walks into the bathroom, but wearing a female “tank top” and lipstick walks into the bathroom
Might I add that while you were standing outside this was the only person to walk in.
In this crazy world it is discrimination to tell the cops.
Cause you see individual who has male body parts thinks that “it” is a female.August 11, 2016 3:55 am at 3:55 am #1190783SparklyMember
jewishfeminist02 – so your saying that i should become a transgender chasvichallila? no thanks. what i meant is that boys and girls should be treated the same.August 11, 2016 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1190784
Feminists and liberals want a world where morality is relative and subjective. So if a man wants to use the ladies room, so be it.
If gender roles don’t matter and if gender can be fluid, than we lose the need for binaries. Evil becomes good in such a worldview.August 11, 2016 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1190785
coffee addict, what if I told you that I don’t believe you’re really Jewish? I believe that you’re a real person, but not a Jew! How would you feel?
Sparkly, I’m not literally suggesting that you should become transgender. However, since you said “i see nothing different about being a male or female or why someone would insist on being a male or female”, I’m asking you to think about why it’s so important for YOU to “insist on being a female” and then maybe you’ll understand how transgender people feel.
Ben Levi, I don’t understand your point.
dovrosenbaum, not all feminists are liberals and vice versa. It’s also not true that they all believe in moral relativism. I don’t see where “evil” comes into the picture…August 12, 2016 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1190786
How would that impact my life?
In the same way how are there lives age extend by not being recognized, they don’t need a formal marriage to live together and for sure they don’t need to force other people to recognize them (if someone doesn’t just go somewhere else)
I don’t really see where you’re going over hereAugust 24, 2016 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1190787
Just stumbled on a recent report in the New Atlantis which basically states that a non-biased view of the science debunks the claim that people are “born” LGBTQ and cannot change.
The rport is authored by,
Dr. Lawrence S. Mayer M.D, M.S., Ph.D.(scholar in residence in the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University and a professor of statistics and biostatistics at Arizona State Universityi
Dr. Paul R. McHugh M.D (Professor of Phsychiatry at Johns Hopkins)September 11, 2016 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1190788
Even though trump is a plant, at least he’s not a robot like Hillary
Who short circuits and overheats? Only computers do that!
If she was human she would have dehydratedNovember 10, 2016 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1190789mw13Participant
And Trump is saying that he will seek Obama’s counsel… How about a cabinet post for Hillary?November 10, 2016 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1190791dbrimParticipant
As a frum Jew, and as a psychologist, I find this thread distressing. The Mabul came about due to (non-Jewish) society’s condoning homosexuality. Hashem considers it a toeiva – and you’re defending it? There’s a big difference between honoring the tzelem elokim in every individual regardless of “lifestyle”, and forcing society to honor and accomodate alternative lifestyles at the expense of people with traditional family value, in public place, in the public educational system, etc.
Nature v. nurture is an ongoing scientific question. The brain is far more complex than scientists ever imagined – the more we learn, the more we realize how little we know. Open any basic biopsych text and you’ll see that most physiological processes are orchestrated in multiple areas of the brain – to say that parts of the brain of transgender individuals are different is politically correct but bad science. Also, it’s inconsistent to attribute all gender differences to societal/cultural factors but then purport that LBGT is genetic. I’m sure it’s very challenging for LGBTs who were wired that way (which I suspect is a much smaller percentage of the LBGT community than is being portrayed) but for frum Jews, the Torah defines right and wrong, moral and immoral, even in our 21st century “I’m OK, you’re OK society” politically correct culture.
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