Tuition crisis RESOLVED!!!

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  • #604729

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    You open any newspaper today,(Jewish of course)and notice this askan donating money for a new building, a great cause I might add, or other askanim donating large sums of money to various organazations as well, also a great cause.

    Why can’t there be a group of askanim who should approach yeshivos or Bais yaakov’s, and ask per month or whatever time frame they decide, how much in tuition payments are they behind? If a mosod says we are behind $15,000 for the month,let the askanim pool their money and pay down this balance?

    Lets hold off on donating buildings or a new luchroom or a state of the art computer room, and let’s focus on making sure teachers and Rabaim are paid!!!

    Thanks for you time.

    #894501

    Mammele
    Participant

    You are making too many assumptions here. For starters:

    1. You really can’t control where people give their tzeddakah money. Some people like plaques…

    2. Even if you can convince donors, our mosdos need more buildings to continue their expansion due to natural growth ka”h.

    3. There is never enough money to go around, and many more people who are tight financially will stop paying tuition if others are footing the bill. It will be an endless cycle of escalating costs.

    #894502

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Then the askonim would be able to see the yeshiva’s books. It will never happen.

    #894503

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    1. Is the issue publicity? That would be a sad state of affairs.So give them a plaque for subsidizing tuitions!! The greatest recognition out there!!! Hng it up above a classroom!!

    2. Growth is excpected, B’H, but certain areas of a mosod should have a more important priortity.

    3. Yeshivas need not publicize the amount given or what the debt was for that time frame. Parents should not relie on this fact of askanim support, but mosdo’s will be able to pay all teachers on time if supplemented.

    But you are right that you cant control where people give their money. But this is the greatest tzedakah out there. Paying a teacher on time is basically giving them parnasa and what better form of tzedakah is better than that?

    Instead of sending money to have someone say your name for 180 days at a kever, support a mosod!!!

    #894504

    americaisover
    Participant

    What we should do is stop the proliferation of orgs and rabbis asking for donations for THEIR causes. Plus many so called askonim want the attention and honor of their being the savior of a particular organizationm,it helps put their name out in the community which helps their childrens shidduchim.

    #894505

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Wait!!! I have it!!! Let’s just get Bill Gates to give billions of dollars to the yeshivos!!!

    After all, if you’re assuming that people with money will fall in line with your ideas, why aim small? Shoot for the clouds!

    #894506

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    That’s unfortunate gavra at work, is it that askanim need to see the books(no trust?) or that the mosod is hiding something?

    That’s a big issue with todays mosods. NO TRUST. All parents think that their tuition money goes in someones pocket for their car lease and not back into the building?

    How did this happen? Maybe that’s why there IS tuition crisis!!

    We all need to trust each other with nothing to hide.

    #894507

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    Do you have Bill Gate’s email address?

    #894508

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That’s unfortunate gavra at work, is it that askanim need to see the books(no trust?) or that the mosod is hiding something?

    That’s a big issue with todays mosods. NO TRUST. All parents think that their tuition money goes in someones pocket for their car lease and not back into the building?

    How did this happen? Maybe that’s why there IS tuition crisis!!

    We all need to trust each other with nothing to hide.

    Un Resolved?

    #894509

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Wait!!! I have it!!! Let’s just get Bill Gates to give billions of dollars to the yeshivos!!!

    Why stop at Bill Gates when you can go to the printer itself?

    Oh, that is what they call “vouchers”.

    #894510

    i know that there a lot of people who legitimately need a tuition discount. However, there are many families with the two brand new cars leased in their driveway along with the yearly vacations who cry no money to the tuition board. If we have people who will cover the tab at the end of the month this problem of people not being able to pay will suddenly increase ten fold.

    #894511

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Instead of sending money to have someone say your name for 180 days at a kever, support a mosod!!!

    Instead of sending money to have a plaque, support a mosod!!! Same idea.

    #894512

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    working harder – I can’t imagine, the tuition crisis is a result of all the rich(same askanim???) looking for a tuition break??

    Again, only the mosod would know of the money supplemented, parents would not be told that, hey were giving you 2 months free because someone else paid up.

    The main idea is that all teachers and rabaim would be paid on a timely basis, if such a tzedakah is implemented.

    But I have heard of instances where someone walked into a yeshiva and told the administration to randomly pick a family who was quite behind and then offered to pay the balance in full!!

    So there are special people out there who do help out with this matter.

    #894513

    alha
    Participant

    How about making tuition a percentage of your annual income i.e. 5% of income for someone erning 100K it would be $5,000.00 someone earning a million it would add up to $50,000.00 by using that formula the mosdos would be collecting alot more in tutition from the higher earners and would probably be working in a surplus.

    #894514

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People are generally willing to sponsor such things as “A Day of learning” or buying new Seforim

    But its almost impossible to get people to sponsor such things as the Electric or Heating Bill.

    And its might not be an issue of trust, but rather how to run things. If there is a shortage of money one year an Askin might say that the yeshiva has to lay off a Rebbe so the others can be paid and the yeshiva stay open, but the R’Y might not go for that idea and even hire someone who needs a job even though he cant pay the salaries he already has.

    #894515

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “However, there are many families with the two brand new cars leased in their driveway along with the yearly vacations who cry no money to the tuition board.”

    Are you referring to yeshiva parents or yeshiva administrators?

    #894516

    RebRY
    Member

    Working hard, I think that is a shame that peole use their money for vacations and nice new fancy cars with fancy houses instead of using it for what is really important, schar limid for their children. Most families in brooklyn have beautiful houses. I am happy in my small appartment I don’t need a big fancy house. I don’t have any kids yet so a small apartment is enough but when I will need to move I don’t want a fancy house it is not going to come with me after a hindert in tzvontzik only the Torah and Mitzvos will so that is what is really important. I would much rather have a sheina esrog or nice sefarim, the best mehidurdike tefillin. Schar limid is very important to pay the rebbes who teach our children Torah. Even though I think most of the rebbes are not so qualified to be teaching the Torah when they are not so erlich don’t follow everything that it says and should be driving the school buses instead. Last year I was at a Yeshiva and one of the Rebbes was a chiyiv and needed to daven mincha for the amid, so they made a minyan for him made up of rebbes and menahalim of the yeshiva. I was so disgusted at what I saw, rebbes davening shemone esrei in 1 minute and afterwards walking around with their phones texting while walking in front of other people who were still davening shemone esrei. ( how can you daven with kavuneh, derech tachninim and everything else that you need in shemoneh esrei in 1 minute. and when you finish and go back 3 steps you need to stay in your place until kedisha not walking around) I know people are not perfect and if this would have been one of the bus drivers of the yeshiva it would not have bothered me as much but if you are going to be a rebbe and teaching Torah then pratice what you preach or go become a bus driver or the yeshivas manager over the goyim who clean, people wonder why there are so many kids OTD.

    #894517

    Health
    Participant

    YOSSI151 – Read my recent post under the topic of -“What will make Moshiach come?”, regarding tuition.

    #894518

    The little I know
    Participant

    There is absolutely no input on how mosdos spend their money. I have had the following daydream. I win the lottery to the tune of millions. I get bombarded by all the yeshivos asking for my donations. I reject each and every one of them. I then enter the office of each of these yeshivos, and I ask them for their books of outstanding balances of schar limud. Now that I’m wealthy, everyone takes me seriously and falls into immediate obedience. I jot down the information on several of these families. It doesn’t take much to determine that they are among those who are rightfully accused of pleading poverty while they excursion everywhere and live in luxury. Others are known to suffer from unemployment, medical issues, etc. I then write checks to the respective yeshiva and give it to the family! They can then payoff their balances. Voila! Tzedokoh, supporting mosdos, and allowing someone in financial trouble to get a night’s sleep without worrying that their child will be placed in the street due to financial difficulties (deserves a separate thread).

    I shared this daydream with a menahel, and he angrily told me that he would declare me an enemy of Yiddishkeit. He stated that the yeshiva needs the freedom to pressure the parents for tuition. (I have no idea why.)

    #894519

    americaisover
    Participant

    ALHA: you mean do what Obama wants have the working/middle/upper class subsidize those on welfare?

    #894520

    alha
    Participant

    not at all i am advocating flat tax on earnings.

    #894521

    Health
    Participant

    The little that I know -“I shared this daydream with a menahel, and he angrily told me that he would declare me an enemy of Yiddishkeit. He stated that the yeshiva needs the freedom to pressure the parents for tuition. (I have no idea why.)”

    Simple – either he doesn’t have any real poor people in his school, a remote possibility, and he needs to pressure all the fakers; or more likely he doesn’t comprehend the idea of being really poor. I’ve found that a lot of Frum people, whether they are rich or middle-income, don’t really comprehend the Tzoros of a really poor person. They think that it’s like middle-income and at the end of the day, month, year, or whatever, they just don’t have anything left over. They can’t comprehend what it’s like not to have anything in the first place for basic necessities.

    And taking Gov. programs doesn’t mean you are poor. It means you meet a certain guideline, but at the end of the day most aren’t really in the poor house. Some will be in the middle-income range and others will be in the upper-income range.

    #894522

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    “Oh, that is what they call “vouchers”.

    “I shared this daydream with a menahel, and he angrily told me that he would declare me an enemy of Yiddishkeit. He stated that the yeshiva needs the freedom to pressure the parents for tuition.”

    Little and Gavra, this comment is for you. I asked a local administrator what would realistically happen if the pipe dream of vouchers were to come true. The answer? Tuition would rise by the amount of the vouchers. Are you folks hearing this??? I thought I would puke.

    The beginning of Shoftim (not the parsha) says that the Judges were being judged. there are 2 explanations. 1) woe is the generation that judges their judges, or 2) woe is the generation that the judges do things that cause the nation to have to judge them. I think its a rashi right in the beginning. Folks, every day I lose hope that we are now in the 2nd. Because if its the first at least some charismatic rav/leader could come and shlep us up with him. with the second, we are lost. SMH…..

    #894523

    YOSSI151
    Participant

    I am wondering if any of our askanim who do support various organazations as well as other forms of tzedakah, are reading these posts. I am curious if they have reasons why this form of tzedakah was never part of the equation.

    The oppurtunity to ensure teachers as well as rabaim are paid on a timely basis seems like a good and sound plan!!!

    I know there is a chushuva man who collescts money to ensure that each Rebbi or Teacher has Life insurance!! Yasher Koach – A great idea.

    Why can’t we implement a simillar idea for their salaries if the tuition is unfortunatley lacking from a particular Mosod?

    As an Askan, wouldn’t you jump at this oppurtunity?

    #894524

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    One of the mosty misinformed posts here in quite a while. And that takes some doing.

    1) Schools need buildings. That is a fact. If there were not someone dedicating a good portion, schar limud would be even higher.

    2) Who do you think picks up much of the budget shortfall for so many yeshivos as it is. The same gvirim. Without the plaques and all. Apparantly the posters have no inkling of the amount of tzedakah that is given by some of the gvirim and hom many mosdos and cause they support. There are individuals who give many, many millions of dollars a year, and much more than ma’aser and even chomesh.

    I can’t believe the uttter audacity of posters here with their demands.

    And these are people who are helping the yeshivos that do not charge annual tuitions of $25,000 per year (those schools also have budget shortfalls), but tuitions that are a quarter of that amount. It is only because of the geneosity of these donors that tuitions are as low as they are as it is.

    You want to see the books of schools? Sure, if you would help dealls with all the crinches. Not for you to sit there and second guess every single difficult decision the hanhalah had to make and to go ahead and talk about all sort sof provate information on the street (You know who gets what, aho has problems paying tuition, vchulu). Because that is what happens with many of these “back seat” suggesters when someone takes them at their word that they want to help.

    And I am talking from specific knowledge from more than one yeshiva.

    #894525

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    “And these are people who are helping the yeshivos that do not charge annual tuitions of $25,000 per year (those schools also have budget shortfalls),”

    Nisht, This is the precise problem. There is always a short fall there is always a lack of money, there is always a need for more more MORE. Why is there always this need? A lot of this issue has to do with the fact that we are duplicating What is already done in the public school system. We are paying not only rabbis to teach our children Torah but we are also paying English teachers for the rest of the secular subjects. Continuing on this theme, once we are already having to duplicate so much schooling, this neccesitates duplicating the facilities too. It’s too much money. We don’t have any more money to give. The yeshiva system as it currently stands is unsustainable. Now I am not passing judgement on this. But in our pursuit of complete separatism from the non Jewish world so much so that we won’t send our kids to a public school, we have built ourselves into a very very tight corner. Until we all come to grips with that the tuition problem is never going to go away

    #894526

    I dont get it – there is one thing that my school that I went to did which is the smartest thing I ever heard.

    They basically let the parents pay whatever they can afford etc… but they still owe the rest of the balance. After their child finishes school the parent carrys on paying up the rest of the tuition at a pace they can afford. It is SO much smarter!! Coz now the school gets paid for the next 20 years – maybe small amounts but imaging 100’s or parents still paying off their kids tutition at the same amount they paid before – the school is making the money they have to and it covers the teachers salaries because the new parents who aren’t paying enough are being covered by those who are still paying up.

    It is super smart – as a parent I would love to feel good that I invested in my childs tuition plus its a huge bracha to pay full tuition for your child. But honestly I cant do it – but I would for sure agree that to pay up in full in the end of the day would be something I would feel was right to do.

    Schools should do this. Parents who cry and bla bla bla… if thats the schools policy and you don’t like it send ur kid elsewhere – they wont do that coz usually there’s not too many options with frum schools… after 15 years of this being implemented PROBLEM SOLVED!! they’ll carry on surviving the same way they have been for the past 50 years for 15 years only and slowly it will improve as they keep getting paid back!

    #894527

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Song, if we implemented this plan now, how would the Yeshiva meet it’s current obligations right now?

    #894528

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you really want the tution crisis resolved. You need different thinking and Im not sure the ideas would be popular or work.

    You need to look at the american university systems and the Catholic Schools.

    An endowment must be created and Im not sure people would want to give to an endowment.

    Yeshivas must be run more as business rather than a labor of love, Neoptism must be stopped and the best qualified teachers should be hired.

    Yeshivas in many cases are run as a fiefdom rather than by a board of directors. Many times its the RY way or the highway even if it is really wrong and can severly damage the finances of the yeshivas.

    Constructive critism which might very well help the finances the yeshivas are quashed or not given for “Kavod Harav”

    #894529

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Little and Gavra, this comment is for you. I asked a local administrator what would realistically happen if the pipe dream of vouchers were to come true. The answer? Tuition would rise by the amount of the vouchers. Are you folks hearing this??? I thought I would puke.

    I’ve heard the same. However, at least with vouchers there would be some sort of responsibility to the government, and to actually teach something.

    #894530

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft: Those who do pick up the shortfall SHOULD make those decisions. It is their money.

    #894531

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Schools should do this. Parents who cry and bla bla bla… if thats the schools policy and you don’t like it send ur kid elsewhere – they wont do that coz usually there’s not too many options with frum schools… after 15 years of this being implemented PROBLEM SOLVED!! they’ll carry on surviving the same way they have been for the past 50 years for 15 years only and slowly it will improve as they keep getting paid back!

    Except that:

    1: There is no way to enforce it. It has been tried (such as second mortgages, legal documents, etc.) and end story, no yeshiva will remove someone from their home due to nonpayment.

    2: Costs never really go down, because life support for your son in law is more expensive than tuition.

    #894532

    The little I know
    Participant

    Gavra said “no yeshiva will remove someone from their home due to nonpayment.” That might be accurate. However, one of the curses of our generation is that nonpayment of tuition often results with the child being refused admission and left either home and rejected or roaming the streets and rejected. Neither of these is an option if one considers such values as Torah and morality. This refusing to admit is a daily occurrence, and if anyone doubts this, just ask around. Those organizations that deal with placements have situations like this all the time. How many yeshivos and schools have midyear re-registrations at which balances must be paid in full in order to get admission cards that are collected at the door by security guards? I listen to fiascos like this all the time, justified by, “We need to pay our teachers.” Just that the teachers still do not get paid.

    Our current chinuch system completely ignores the effects of rejection of a child. Throwing a student out for disciplinary reasons is usually an impulsive reaction. That is repulsive, and opposite of all principles of Torah chinuch. Even more disgusting is the rejection for financial reasons. I do not fault the yeshivos for demanding what is due. But penalizing a child, forever, is never an option – if one subscribes to morality.

    #894533

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    However, one of the curses of our generation is that nonpayment of tuition often results with the child being refused admission and left either home and rejected or roaming the streets and rejected.

    And whoever does this is a Shofech Damim. I suggest whomever lives in such a community where the Rabbonim allow such a thing and where those who do it are lauded should leave, as obviously that community cares more about its Gashmius than its children.

    Come to think of it, I don’t believe you. I can’t believe that any Jew would be so cruel. I’m not calling you a Shakran, but you must have misheard.

    #894534

    Health
    Participant

    To all,

    The whole premise that in the US – that parents have to pay Yeshiva’s tuition is wrong. In EY, most parents don’t pay anything. So since they think e/o has to pay tuition -they think they have the right to demand it. They mistreat poor people for no reason. And yes, there is such a thing as poor people – people who didn’t just finish their summer vacations.

    They have set up a system contrary to Chazal. They make e/o pay one price, but even the US gov. has different tax brackets for different people. Obviously people don’t know why Chazal instituted Yeshivos; before that everybody just hired a Rebbe. And the reason is because the Yesomim & poor people couldn’t afford to hire themselves a Rebbe – so Chazal made it incumbent on the Tzibur. So for people in America to charge e/o tuition is wrong, but I doubt Chazal would have a problem if they made the rich people pay tuition, not just relying on donations of those who could afford it!

    #894535

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Contrary to most, I do think yeshivas need to kick out kids who dont pay, While its cruel, What are they really supposed to do unless they can raise the shortfall.

    maybe the Rebbes dont mind being paid occasionally, But what about Con Ed….They could care less about your situation, You dont pay they will turn off the electricity and the Heat

    What about the Mortgage, they will forclose, they dont care kids parents are unemployed.

    And even what about the Rebbes themselves, they have their own bills that must be paid they need their salaries

    And for those who say the Gevirim should pay, Should a Satmar Gevir pay for a MO yeshiva who are firm belivers in Zionism or should a MO Gevir pay for a Satmar yeshiva who are Anti-Zionist etc

    #894536

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ZD: There is Halacha and Chazal regarding what should be done. Pashtus if a parent refuses to pay, the school should start a specific collection for the child, announcing that the parent refuses to take care of his child and the yeshiva is collecting for him/her so that he/she can go to yeshiva & stay out of public school. IIRC, it is Offen a Gemorah Kesubos that I have posted here before (maybe 49b?).

    #894537

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    GAW,

    It is not those people who are asking for information. They actually see the issues and step up to the plate.

    It is all the back seat drivers posting here that I was referring to.

    #894538

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    You have no clue.

    The catholic schools are supported by the diocese and they are controlled by the diocese. There is no endowment. Funds come from the investments that the church has (look at Trinity church, one of the biggest landlords in downtown Manhattan). They also collect from their members. Will you be willing to pay to a communal organization a tax on top of tuition? The schools charge tuition as well.

    If a yeshiva would put aside for an endowment, I am sure that you would be questioning how they used that as well.

    And are you setting aside the funds for that? I thought you were complaining about the people who give for plaques? All the endowments are named chairs.

    While it would be nice to have an endowments, funding those is pushing off on to others. On top of that, these universities are still charging $50,000 a year tuition. Look at all your fellow OWS people complaining about that.

    #894539

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    GAW

    You have to face the reality of the situation, You can either live in a fantasy world, or you can accept reality.

    Do you really think no matter how many times it says dont boot kid, that a Satmar Gvier would give to a Zionistic MO school or Vice Versa

    #894540

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I didnt complain about the Plaques. I have no problem with that. It was someone else

    If you want to give $100,000 to a yeshiva and you want a Plaque Gezan D’Heh

    I am not cluelest. I am a realist. I dont live in a Fantasy world

    #894541

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“Contrary to most, I do think yeshivas need to kick out kids who dont pay, While its cruel, What are they really supposed to do unless they can raise the shortfall.

    maybe the Rebbes dont mind being paid occasionally, But what about Con Ed….They could care less about your situation, You dont pay they will turn off the electricity and the Heat”

    Is this your Psak Din? If it is, you are Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha – if you’re talking about people who can’t pay.

    And you should have placed your post in the topic of – why Moshiach isn’t here yet!

    And FYI, even the Goyim have Gov. & orgs. to help pay your utilities before they close them off. The Gov. has HEAP and I don’t recall the names of the private orgs.

    And since there really isn’t a Frum org. dedicated to helping parents pay tuition – you’re advocating that Jews should be worse than Goyim!

    “And for those who say the Gevirim should pay, Should a Satmar Gevir pay for a MO yeshiva who are firm belivers in Zionism or should a MO Gevir pay for a Satmar yeshiva who are Anti-Zionist etc.”

    And why not? I hold that MO’s are Shoggeg when it comes to Israel, so why shouldn’t a rich person with my Shitta (similar to Satmar) stop a MO Yeshiva from closing? (Where kids will end up in Public School.)

    I really hope that you’re from the few that has this Achzoriest (Mean) Shitta, because if you’re one from many – we are in for a very, very long Golus!

    #894542

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the government does NOT pay utilities of Catholic Schools or other private schools.

    HEAP is for individuals not Schools , the government doesnt care about schools or religious institutions

    You can quote any psak din you want, Con Ed doesnt care . Psak Dins dont raise money

    You can live in the real world , or live in a fantasy world

    If you want to ask people to Give and try to raise the Tens of Millions needed, I am all for that, but it isnt going to work, You arent going to raise it.

    Thank goodness I dont run a yeshiva, I would not want to be in the situation where Id have to decide who to pay, the Rebbe who hasnt been paid in a month or Con Ed who is threatening to shut off the Power or the Bank who is threatening foreclosure.

    And be Honest How many people would donate to a yeshiva whose Hashgafa they feel are “Anti-Torah” values (Whatever that means)

    many MO schools are Mixed Gender, Would you Donate to those schools?

    Many more Charedi Schools dont teach secular subjects, How many MO people find that abhorrent.

    #894543

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW

    You have to face the reality of the situation, You can either live in a fantasy world, or you can accept reality.

    Do you really think no matter how many times it says dont boot kid, that a Satmar Gvier would give to a Zionistic MO school or Vice Versa

    I seriously believe that if the parents were Nisbayish to the point where others knew that people were collecting Tzedaka for them, then we would have significantly fewer non-payers. So did Chazal.

    And yes, I do believe that the Satmer (or other Chassidish) will pay for the MO, and vice versa. I have seen it with my own eyes. It does mean though that you need to have tolerance and compromise, which is non-existant in most communities, especially in-town. Out of town, where it is stick together or have nothing, there is more tolerance for other types of frum Yidden.

    #894544

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft: Back seat drivers don’t have the right. Only front seat drivers do. However, some of those who could be front seat drivers are turned off by lack of transparancy.

    I think we agree.

    #894545

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“the government does NOT pay utilities of Catholic Schools or other private schools.

    HEAP is for individuals not Schools , the government doesnt care about schools or religious institutions

    You can quote any psak din you want, Con Ed doesnt care . Psak Dins dont raise money

    You can live in the real world , or live in a fantasy world”

    You are so in your little dream world – it’s pathetic.

    The fact that Yeshivos have these bills -so what? If the parents can’t truly afford to pay, how will removing the child(ren) from the Yeshiva help this situation? All it does is create more problems in Klal Yisroel. If it was to threaten parents who actually have money -then you might have a point, but there are many that really don’t.

    “If you want to ask people to Give and try to raise the Tens of Millions needed, I am all for that, but it isnt going to work, You arent going to raise it.”

    With people like you around maybe you can’t, but B’H in Klal Yisroel there are many people who do care about others.

    All you need is one Askan (Aka. rich man) to start an Org. for tuition.

    “And be Honest How many people would donate to a yeshiva whose Hashgafa they feel are “Anti-Torah” values (Whatever that means)

    many MO schools are Mixed Gender, Would you Donate to those schools?

    Many more Charedi Schools dont teach secular subjects, How many MO people find that abhorrent.”

    I didn’t say the MO community should put Satmar on their mailing lists. But I think, as a last resort, if the Yeshiva has to close down, and it’s a possibility kids will end up in P.S., then e/o in Klal Yisroel should give and probably would, if they were approached!

    #894546

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You are making an assumption that if you have 30 kids in a class who are paying and you add 1 non-payer it doesnt cost anything more to educate them. Unfortuantly thats not true, It does cost more to educate the non-payer.

    In a perfect world all Kids should get the proper education, but the world is not perfect .

    There are organizations that raise money for tuition, Kars-4-Kids / Oorah, but how much do you really think that raises and thats likely the biggest one. it probably raises a few million, but the shortfall is much much greater than that.

    And most Gviers who give big money expect bigger control over the money. They just dont write a check for $5 Million dollars without conditions. They want to make sure they money is well spent

    #894547

    The little I know
    Participant

    There is no question that the financial burden borne by yeshivos is massive. Tuition pays a portion of that. I understand. It’s the throwing out of children into the street that is unacceptable, and it runs counter to every Torah value I have ever encountered.

    My personal experience was that I was sent a contract from my children’s school each year, and it was so far beyond my reach that I got in line to negotiate a contract. The individual I met with was a gvir who volunteered his time for the yeshiva. I am quite pleased with his graciousness to give of his time. However, this man has never needed to pinch pennies, and was unable to identify with the experiences of those he was pressing for money they did not have. I can speak for myself – no vacations ever, no bungalow, no trips to Florida or Eretz Yisroel. When I showed him my income, I hid nothing, and was not from those who skimp on tuition to live lives of luxury. I went for long periods without buying meat, as I could not afford it. I was pushed and taxed mercilessly. Then came the verbal agreement that I would not be held to the re-registration schedule, as my income was seasonal. I never left the school with an outstanding balance, but the threat to disallow my children in without admission cards was kept, despite agreement that this would not be done. My impression – the money mattered, my children did not.

    Next – the community must make sure that expelling children or denying admission for financial reasons be banned – yes, as critical to the survival of Yiddishkeit as unfiltered internet. The child is being punished for a “crime” he/she did not commit. The scars of rejection will last longer than the outstanding balance. Even when the parents beg, borrow, and steal to pay up, the child is damaged seriously. Yes, expelling a child from yeshiva is dinei nefashos, as per the Chazon Ish and many others. These decisions are made by impulsive administrators or impulsive menahalim, not groups of assembled and unbiased dayanim. This disgrace is a curse to Klal Yisroel. The child expelled leaves with his/her generations that will follow, and no one in the yeshiva office cares. What a shanda!

    GAW – It is fact that students are denied admission, re-admission, or are expelled due to financial reasons. I am in direct contact with such situations constantly. It pains me greatly to see the same people who make such decisions accorded honors at public events, when in reality, they are guilty of retzichah – yes, murder. May these people do all the teshuvah needed, including the restoration of the neshamos they rejected and tried to kill. I wish they do this successfully to restore the honor of Kvod Shomayim and true Kavod HaTorah.

    #894548

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    TLIK

    The problem is you arent the only one in that situation, almost everyone is. Someone told me that in her class she was the only one whose father “worked” (He only works part time) the rest of the girls all had fathers who were in Chinunch. Add to the fact that most frum families are large.

    What is the person behind the desk supposed to do, What are the adminstrators supposed to do especially when almost nobody can afford and everyone has the same story.

    In NYC area there are about 300,000 kids in Yeshivas, Bais Yaakov , Day Schools etc. Lets assume that each school has a $1000 deficit per kid, that means that $300,000,000 needs to be raised from Gevirim

    Maybe Sheldon Adelman could stop spending $100 Million to defeat Obama and give it to Chinuch, but very few people have that kind of money

    #894549

    The little I know
    Participant

    zahavasdad:

    I appreciate your recognition. You’re correct, there are many in similar positions. However, let’s examine this from a different angle. Running a yeshiva is a business. There is an employer and there are employees. There is a hierarchy of authority and responsibility. There is also a mission, and there should be a structure that enables the mission to be accomplished. Now here is where there is a parting. There is always a mission that is stated in altruistic terms, full of spirituality, full of Torah value, full of a vision of being the yeshiva that is pivotal in the continuation of Torah. No one ever announces at the fund raising dinners how many students were denied admission, how many were expelled, and just how many former students are now struggling with getting into other yeshivos now that they have a history of being thrown out, and how many of their former talmidim are rejecting Shabbos, kashrus, and shmiras mitzvos. Funny that these numbers appear nowhere when there are efforts to solicit funds.

    All I am saying is that financial issues are the business part of the yeshiva, and needs to stay there. Once we allow issues of dollars to influence the spiritual responsibilities, such as leaving a child to the influences of the street because of money, we have an ethical and moral problem here. And I question the honesty of the yeshiva when they portray themselves as having these lofty missions when there are neshamos that are sentenced to the street.

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