Tzidkaniyos Wearing Leather

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  • #611170
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    The latest style is to have leather details on otherwise tznius clothes.

    While there is nothing technically wrong with it, I feel this style is not modest or feminine, and inappropriate for a person who wants to project those traits. It connotes tough, manly work (think motorcyclists and leather gloves). I am surprised it has become so popular.

    What are your thoughts?

    #986246
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s okay for balding men.

    #986247
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    yuck! Just another way of crossing that line without crossing it.

    #986248
    streekgeek
    Participant

    And the poor babies that are swaddled in their “leather” (read: plastic) leggings… My heart goes out to them!

    #986249
    walton157
    Member

    It may look like leather, but it could really be Pleather. If it’s tznius, I have no problem. People wear whichever materials are comfortable for their bodies. Don’t like it, don’t wear it and leave us leather-wearing-biker-chicks alone!!!

    #986251
    streekgeek
    Participant

    I actually asked someone a lot older and wiser than me regarding this style, but I’m scared to post it.

    #986252
    WIY
    Member

    Streek

    Scared to post it? Well when you gather your courage we will here to read it

    #986253
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    torah613 allow me to dissect:

    “While there is nothing technically wrong with it,”

    Define “technically.” Additionally, are you saying your next arguments aren’t technically provable? If so, I agree. As someone who thrives on technicalities, allow me to hone my craft. Please don’t take this personally.

    “I feel this style is not modest”

    feelings are unprovable. Also, define modest.

    feminine,”

    same response except replace “modest” with “feminine.”

    “and inappropriate for a person who wants to project those traits.”

    See above for request to define “these traits.” Also, define propriety in this context. Is it a technical term?

    “It connotes tough, manly work (think motorcyclists and leather gloves).”

    I think it connotes a new tznius feminine style (think new thread in the coffee room). Stating what it reminds you of doesn’t make it bad.

    Additionally, in the yeshiva world, increasingly the women do the “tougher work,” as the men frequently stay in academia until the point that only white collar work tends to produce sufficient income for their large families, leaving their wives to do all the “tough” work. Oh, and please define “tough” as well.

    I suppose the points I’m trying to make is 1. that the esoteric concept of tznius doesn’t lend itself well to technical limitations, and 2. stating that it’s technically okay, while listing unprovable technicalities as to why it’s not okay is contradictory.

    #986254
    REALIST
    Member

    Perfect example of ‘NOVOL B’RESHUS HATORAH’!

    #986255
    writersoul
    Member

    I think that leather details look fine if they’re tasteful. Same thing that I think about sequins, neon colors, etc. A leather band on my Shabbos skirt or fake-leather pockets on my sweater are not the end of the world. They’re not loud or flashy or attention-grabbing.

    Leather doesn’t have to be masculine. My mom wears a leather jacket that’s very tasteful and feminine- nobody would ask her why she’s wearing a guy’s jacket. I also don’t think it has to be inappropriate, either- in general, as long as it’s in good taste… and that’s definitely possible with leather.

    I also think that in general, as fashion moves, things become more or less acceptable. As styles change and people start wearing new things, they enter more and more into the realm of the mainstream. And personally, I think that’s okay. Obviously it’s within a person’s rights to dislike leather or puffy skirts or neon green, but if people wear it and it’s newly common, it can shed a lot of previous associations and become perfectly fine. To be honest, I don’t see my friend’s leather-panel sweater and think, oh, she looks like she’s wearing guy clothes. Styles do change and with them so do our mindsets.

    #986256
    oomis
    Participant

    Hashem gave us animals to utilize in a variety of ways, one of which is to use their hides and/or fur to clothe ourselves. If the leather item is not too tight, I see no difference between it and wool, cotton, fur coats, or anything else that can LIKEWISE be untzniusdig, when made to appear that way.

    #986257
    ujew
    Participant

    Stop with the ‘Tzidkaniyos’ nonsense, & call a spade a spade.

    #986258
    interjection
    Participant

    For once a tznius thread that was actually started by a woman:)

    I hear that it’s not Jewish looking but I don’t think it’s not tznius. I have a hard enough time with the basics but as long as I struggle with those I won’t even think about getting rid of my leather jacket. It’s just one more thing to add to the list of ‘forbiddens’, as if it wasn’t suffocating enough.

    #986259
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    streekgeek – I vote for not bothering

    #986260

    I am having trouble rustling up an opinion on this, perhaps because I don’t hang around nashim tzidkanios, or perhaps because I am not checking out what they are wearing. I would be glad to stick in a joke about tearing off any leather clothing that I notice.

    #986261
    streekgeek
    Participant

    @Syag – that’s what I was thinking. I don’t want to be involved in what will turn out to be a balagan. So I’ll just sit at the side and watch this develop without my two cents.

    #986262
    Bookworm120
    Participant

    I read a similar presumption that people shouldn’t wear denim because they claimed that in England, apparently only the low-class, unrefined dregs of the working-class society wear it. I’ve never been to the UK, but I’m pretty sure that denim doesn’t necessarily connote such traits. And wearing denim doesn’t necessarily connote support of the Zionists either.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care for leather accents, but if these girls are not wearing leather in a provocative or overly abnormal, eye-catching way on otherwise unquestionably tznius garments, then I really don’t see what’s wrong with it.

    #986263
    akuperma
    Participant

    Why is leather an issue? It was common in all clothing until plastic was invented back in the 20th century? It can also be very fashionable depending on styles, particularly for outerwear. However it is more expensive than plastic, which is why most people avoid it and substitute plastic instead (plus one can make waterproof plastic more cheaply and more waterproof than leather). Unlike plastic, leather “breathes” which is why fine shoes are made of leather – with a tremendous cost difference.

    #986264
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Frumnotyeshivish: LOL. Thanks for contributing to this discussion.

    Many wonderful girls who are true tzidkoniyos and very tzanua do dress in this style, and other wonderful girls who are also true tzidkaniyos and very tzanua feel it is a lack of sensitivity. I thought this would make an interesting thread precisely because it is a sensitivity issue, and not a tznius issue.

    Note how careful I was to avoid judgment in the OP, even going so far as to call those wearing it tzidkaniyos in the title.

    My personal feelings are just that – my feelings. Thank you for sharing yours. 🙂

    writersoul: That’s a good point about fashion moving.

    oomis: Also good point. It’s just another fabric.

    ujew: Not sure what you mean.

    interjection: I know, I always get annoyed at tznius threads started by men too.

    You put it very well. It’s not Jewish looking but neither is it untznius. I agree that the basics are far more important. And also, let’s re-emphasize that many frum girls do wear it. I agree it should not be added to the list of forbiddens.

    streekgeek: I for one would love to hear your 2c.

    Bookworm120: I like your comparison to denim.

    #986265

    It does not connote a classy, refined look.

    #986266
    mannster613
    Member

    I don’t think the women here realize how mens eyes work. Leather brings many connotations that women wouldn’t understand. Its extremely Untznius, not for the clothing aspect but for the idea of it. V’hamayvin Yavin.

    #986267
    hanz kegl
    Participant

    leather or pleather skirts go with the leather jacket look. If you wouldnt wear that look why would you wear a skirt or jumper like that. It is totally not befitting a bas melech

    #986269
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    hanz kegl- I have NEVER seen anyone wearing a leather skirt and a leather jacket. It’s too repetitive.

    #986270
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Gamanit: I have. Not everyone has a minimal sense of taste, you know. 🙂

    #986271
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    sg – smart lady

    #986272
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Leather is back in style? It was all the rage in the early 80s too.

    #986273
    bklynmom
    Participant

    Leather has always been in style. Our shoes are leather, our belts are leather our fall&winter gloves are leather, pocketbooks & attache cases are leather, billfolds, purses are leather.

    Leather is a durable and stretchable material. Leather being associated with males is the Hollywood Motorcycle Gang look.

    Tznius is tznius,,, stop adding materials (cotton knits, sweats, silks, lace, leather, seude) to the formula.

    #986274
    miritchka
    Member

    Whats wrong with leather parts in a garment? IMHO leather jackets are quite ugly. I have the same opinion about denim jackets. But thats just an opinion. I would never thrust my opinions on someone else. Wear what you want as long as its in teh parameters of tznius!

    I actually thing that leather/pleather additions to a garment is very nice and is classy too.

    #986275
    apushatayid
    Participant

    bklynmom, so, you were wearing leather skirts in 2011?

    #986276
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    bklnmom: Is that a strong argument? Rubber makes excellent shoes and belts but I wouldn’t wear a rubber dress.

    #986277
    REALIST
    Member

    Men get excited by leather on a woman ’cause the smell reminds them of a new car.

    #986278
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Cows wear leather. It reminds me of a cow when I see them.

    #986279
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    lol Popa.

    Cows also wear meat dresses.

    #986280
    WIY
    Member

    My question is on the frum stores that try to move tznius fashion in a certain direction. They mamish dont chap the enormity of what they are doing.

    #986281
    interjection
    Participant

    “I don’t think the women here realize how mens eyes work. Leather brings many connotations that women wouldn’t understand. Its extremely Untznius, not for the clothing aspect but for the idea of it. V’hamayvin Yavin.”

    Everything in the world makes men think of one thing. A man can see a tree and start thinking inappropriately. Woman have halachas so it shouldn’t be screaming a man in the face when he does mistakenly take a glance. Leather isn’t attention grabbing when you’re trying not to look.

    All these men should grow up and take accountability. We try to the best of our ability and you claim to also. Stop looking out for it and there won’t be a problem.

    #986282
    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @Torah613Torah – Thank you. ^_^

    @PBA – Cows wear leather birthday suits. Consider that for a moment. Leather is made from the epidermis of cows.

    #986283
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I don’t think leather is untzniyus, and it definitely doesn’t make people think of inappropriate things.

    I have a leather jacket. It’s extremely comfortable, and also keeps me very warm in the autumn/early winter time (it’s not for when it’s below freezing outside.) I don’t think it has anything to do with a motorcycle gang – I don’t have the metal studs on it, I don’t have any patches on it, or art on the back. It’s just plain leather.

    mannster613: I think you’re 100% wrong. Honestly, I’m sick of people saying that all men are animals. We’re not. I’ve been working in a corporate office for many years. There are women here who dress in extremely tight clothes, very low-cut collars, and other things a frum Jewish woman would never wear. Guess what? I’ve never done anything inappropriate!

    When I read a post here about how a girl says she needs to dress properly because all men are animals, and she doesn’t want to tempt them (I believe someone wrote a poem about it a few months ago), I laugh! These girls are full of themselves, with huge egos! Do you really think all men find you attractive? We don’t! Get over yourself! You dress properly because that’s what the halachah says to do, not because men are animals.

    #986284
    WIY
    Member

    There is a big mistake a lot of people make regarding Tzniyus. It really isn’t about the men. Men also have hilchos Tzniyus! It’s about you and Hashem. Hashem wants us to focus on and accentuate who we are on the inside in our hearts and souls and that’s what we should be projecting outwardly to the world. Even if no men are around a woman should dress appropriately because of who she is. She should take pride in knowing that she has inner beauty and uniqueness because of how Hashem created her and that she is an original there never was and never will be anyone quite like her. By not dressing appropriately be it a man or a woman you simply cheapen yourself and show that all you are is a nicely shaped piece of flesh that looks good in designer clothing made to attract the eyes. You basically are saying you don’t think you are worth anything and you don’t think humanity is worth anything other than how attractive they look. If I look good enough to be noticed then I am worth something if nobody notices then I am worthless. This is what the corrupt fashion world and the corrupt society we live in wants us to believe. This in essence is a big part of the Greek philosophy that hasn’t disappeared and in fact has made a huge comeback in the world.

    #986285
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaMoshe, it’s not all or nothing. We have to guard ourselves from inappropriate thoughts as well as actions.

    #986286
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Bookworm, I think that was the point of PBA’s quip.

    I can’t vouch for the veracity of this story, but I once heard that the problem with long skirts came about when long skirts came into style. So girls who had been dressing tznius suddenly found that they were in style! The problem was, that when styles changed they were used to being dressed in style so they shortened their skirts.

    #986287
    WIY
    Member

    Mods why the hold up of my post?

    Inappropriate wording.

    #986288
    WIY
    Member

    The one from 54 minutes ago? I beg to differ.

    #986289
    oomis
    Participant

    … because of how Hashem created her…show that all you are is a nicely shaped piece of flesh”

    “How Hashem Created her” was without clothing, which was the intention tobe the norm. Adam and Chava messed that up, but clearly Hashem’s original Plan was for people NOT to wear clothing, because that is not an inherently untzniusdig state. It is our Yetzer Hara that made it so.

    #986290
    WIY
    Member

    oomis

    Right, because before the sin they had no interest in physicality. So clothing was created to cover that up, instead now clothing is all about making you think about whats covered up!

    #986291
    cherrybim
    Participant

    I’d love to have my phone in leather.

    #986292
    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @DaMoshe – +1,000,000,000!

    #986293
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I have a leather jacket”

    I have leather tefillin straps.

    #986294
    LevAryeh
    Member

    I went to a restaurant, and I saw a guy wearing a leather jacket, eating a hamburger, drinking a glass of milk. I said, “Dude, you are a cow.”

    -Mitch Hedberg

    #986295
    oomis
    Participant

    DaMoshe – are there any more at home like you? +1

    #986296
    Bookworm120
    Participant

    @DaMoshe – I dress appropriately because it makes me feel good to do things right, not because I’m afraid gentlemen will see me and think inappropriately about me. I’m sorry that there are inconsiderate people out there who have given the male gender on a whole such a bad rap. The actions of one bad apple does not represent the actions of everyone else.

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