Tzitzis on Shabbos

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  • #1897435
    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    I just learned a pretty shocking Halacha, and I am wondering if anyone else is familiar with this, or has heard of it before.

    Apparently, the shaarei teshuva brings down in hilchos tzitzis, that it is an issur dirabanan to separate tzitzis string on shabbos when they are intertangled.

    This is. rought down by the shmiras shabbos kihilchoso, in the new edition its on page 231, perek tes vav, seif 94, who quotes the shaarei teshuva that says it is assur.

    This would mean that playing with tzitzis, and running our fingers through them while we schmooze, etc, would be an issur dirabanan, and in shul, may be considered chillul shabbos bifarhesya.

    It would literally be no different to pick up a guitar and start playing, which is also a derabanan of mitaken mana.
    It would be worse than walking around with your cellphone in your hand, because some opinions hold that muktzah is just to prevent a non shabbosdik atmosphere.

    Seemingly, it would be like having a business open on shabbos, also a dirabanan.

    Is anyone familiar with this? Is anyone familiar of opinions who disagree?

    Thanks

    #1897541
    besalel
    Participant

    R’ Ovadia held that you can (and should) separate the strings on shabbat except for the first time wearing the tallit – if it is on shabbat you cannot separate the strings. I am going off of memory so I do not have a source. Sorry.

    #1897538
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Separating tzitzis is not the same as playing with them.

    #1897561
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says in SA O’CH (8,7) to separate the tzitzis. Therefore, shabbos might be a finishing touch or makeh bepatish, mesaken rabbinically. The Yabia Omer (5,3) says, as besalel above, that it only applies the first time as if done once, it is complete. According to this, certainly playing around would not be assur.
    If an entangled, maybe do it with a shinuy by shaking it.

    #1897574
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Deliberately separating them is forbidden, at least according to some opinions. Merely playing with them should be fine; if they happen to become separated in the process it was unintentional and therefore not a problem. There is no reason to invent a new gezera to avoid it.

    #1897601
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    It shouldn’t be so hard to simply not “play’ with your tzitzis during davening if you really are serious about equating an inadvertent disentanglement to opening you business on shabbos.

    #1897603
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the MB, Biur Halacha and Sharei Teshuva in above SA O’CH (8,7) there.

    #1897663
    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Yea, I make sure not to run my fingers through the tzitzis now. But I’m asking in general, for Ashkenazim, are they allowed to constantly run their fingers through their tzitzis?

    By the way, it is equated to doing business on shabbos, because they are both derabanan. Its not a stretch, its on the same level.

    I don’t think any of the above posts really addressed what Ashkenazi poskim have to say about this.

    The discussion comes up with the chazon ish, about whether you can untangle them on shabbos or not, because he discusses if you can make a bracha on tangled tzitzis, and this is under the assumption that you cannot untangle them. He didn’t seem to say that he was talking about the first time you ever put them on.

    #1897671
    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    I’m talking about people running their finger through their tzitis, which is what they do. Im not talking about spinning them in the air or shaking them.
    I’m talking about baal habatim and Rabanim literally running their hands through the strings repeatedly. Like 500 times during davening.

    I just saw someone doing this last shabbos, in a kimat frenzy, like he was peeling potatoes or something.

    If its an issue, I, and klal Yisrael would like to know.

    #1897678
    Meno
    Participant

    Am I the only one who thinks this whole “equating” idea is foolish?

    #1897686
    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    An issur derabanan is an issur derbanan. Both are shabbos issurei deraban, higher than a level of muktza. Why are they not equatable?

    #1897681
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the Biur Halacha there from the GRA’s view. Playing is not a pesik resheh so its a safek pesik resheh miderabonon is mutar and certainly if only the first time.

    #1897688
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Ashkenazim also hold it is forbidden to put your fingers through your tzitzis on shabbos for the melacha of unknotting on shabbos which is one of the 39 melachos.

    What you might not know is the middle lane…. Some people just on shabbos when they put on their tallis and make the Bracha they just put their fingers between EACH SET OF STRINGS versus during the week when a person’s fingers go into the middle of each corner set in order to get the strings untied. Thus when you are just going by the group between each corners set of strings on shabbos they may in fact still be knotted up on the middle of the 8 strings since a person’s fingers only went between the 4 corners stick of strings

    #1897697
    Meno
    Participant

    Why are they not equatable?

    Why are you equating them? What’s the purpose?

    #1897701
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    @avreichamshlomo

    The issur is separating TANGLED strings. But running your fingers through strands that are not tangled, or even that are only loosely intermingled but fall apart effortlessly does not fall into this issur.

    (Though there are those who say that touching or moving ANYTHING mindlessly without any Shabbos purpose, may present it’s own problems (muktzeh and others).)

    kesiva v’chasimah tovah

    #1897709
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sam Klein, bemechilas kovad tarohsa, you don’t know whqt you are talking about. Rav Ovadyah Yosef above would not be matir one of the 39 melochos of unknotting. The question is if considered mesaken miderabonon. Moving the fingers does not unknot when permanently tied.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1897714
    besalel
    Participant

    I would imagine playing with your tzitzit is in the category of מתעסק and would be permitted in all circumstances according to all of the דעות irrespective of whether separating the strings is permitted or not (see the last few lines of masechet shabbat, as an example).

    #1897732
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rav Ovadyah above says that the entanglement is not permanent and stands to be opened, so untying prohibition does not apply.

    #1897758
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Meno,

    You could be the only one who thinks equating them is foolish. I thought it was worse than that.

    #1897822
    rational
    Participant

    Having one string above another is not a situation of entanglement. That’s what happens when people have a poor understanding of English.
    From the Oxford dictionary online: Entangle:to cause something to become caught in something such as a net or ropes”. Here, the tzitzit are not caught in anything.

    Separately, I’ll take Nomesorah’s wise words a bit further. Equating all d’rabonons is wrong and dangerous.

    #1897914
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    On this we say:

    תלמוד בבלי מסכת עירובין דף יד עמוד ב
    אמר ליה רב חנן לאביי; הלכתא מאי? אמר ליה: פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר.

    Go and see how the nation speaks. Explains Rashi how the nation behaves.

    #1897923
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    Entanglement is what often occurs after you wash tzitzis. Other than that, it would be unusual for them to become entangled.

    #1898023
    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    What is the gezeirah to not buy and sell? Atu you might come to do ksiva.

    What is the gezeirah to not untangle entangled tzitzis? Its mitaken mana,

    If anything, it would be worse than a dirabanan. How do you think its unequatable, fakert, its worse if anything.

    Rather than call me foolish, why not explain how they are not equatabale.

    #1898071
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tbe Biur Halacha 8,7 explains from the Magen Avraham that currently since no techeles, separation is not realy necessary, so no mesaken mana applies whereas the GRA argues, so it might be assur according to him. The question is can you make a bracha on a talis if not separated?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1898141
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The question is if it is forbidden. You are getting entangled in the wrong question.

    #1898234
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    n0mesorah, the two questions are related. If you cannot make a bracha, it is forbidden being a mesaken.

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